cobalt

Looking into a 100k mile 89 S2. Well cared for, apparently rarely seen rain looks like a 40k mile car inside and out. Had a PPI with 2-8% leakdown recent clutch and TBelt/water pump. Reputable shop said "Appears to have been lightly driven and fairly well maintained. By & Large a fair value"

It was suggested by the shop amongst several other people that although most of the important stuff was taken care the cam tensioner, pads and chain were overlooked. Shocks are tired and all other wearable suspension components are original but sound. Fluids need chainging.

The owner states the bills show replacement of Timing & Balance shaft belt & auxiliary belt 944.102.219.04 along with a camshaft belt.Reputable shop did the work.

I plan on using this car for autocross and some DE only. So how critical is the replacement of the Cam tensioner, pads and chain? Using this car for only autocross with some DE, how soon should I concern myself with these issues?

By the time I update the car with shocks, tires, fluid flush and cam tensioner the cost to have this done will come close to the price of a full sorted needs nothing turbo with most records. The price of the S2 I believe is fair as stated by the PPI shop. However, since I will be beating on this poor car that has been babied all its life how much of a risk am I taking if i do nothing about the cam tensioner and chain for a year or 2 of events?

baldheadracing

Very critical. Replace cam chain tensioner (comes with pads) now. 16+ year old plastic ramps and tensioner internals are just waiting to cost you thousands. Replacing the tensioner is a fairly easy job, but an experienced shop can tell you at the same time how much the chain is stretched, and if it also needs replacing. Unfortunately, there is no spec for chain stretch AFAIK. If the car really was lightly driven, and the car maintained well, then the chain should be okay. Replacing the chain is a PITA, and leads to questions about the cam teeth, etc.

When you do the fluids, I'd also replace the power steering reservoir. The filter inside probably died long ago, and you're going to be working the steering system hard in autox.

Does the car have any suspension options? M030 wasn't available in 1989, but optional shocks and anti-roll bars were. LSD is also a great help in autox'ing an S2.

Good luck with the car!

Oh yeah, and if you're in PCA, please join the 944 S and S2 registry!

cobalt

Thanks for the info.

This is what concerns me. I was quoted a reasonable price to do the work. I am capable but limited on time. They claim about 4 hours labor depending on what is trully needed and they wouldn't know that until they are in there.

The big question is whether to stay with the S2 or go with a complete turbo which needs nothing. The S2 is stock with no options other than added euro driving lights and aftermarket cat back exhaust.

I can pick up a very nice turbo that has everything up to date needs nothing for about the same price I will be at once all the work is completed. The turbo has all the goodies and the bad (lag). I know the S2 will make a better autocross car but the turbo will be a better DE car.

It is apples and oranges but a very tough decision as they are both nice cars.



PS: As I was typing this the owner of the S2 called me, he spoke to the people who did the work and they claimed the 89 S2 has a different setup than the earlier S models. They claim the rollers are all that need to be changed and not the tensioner and that when they did the Tbelt they inspected it and all was OK. If not he would have had a much larger bill.

Z-man

That is not true - the whole tensioner unit should be replaced, IMHO, not just the pads. If the cam chain guide / tensioner hasn't ever been replaced, it needs to be replaced. It may LOOK ok, but over time, the plastic guides become fragile. When I had mine replaced at ~120,000 miles, as the mechanic was taking the unit out of my car, the plastic guide broke apart (quite easily) in his hands.

When was this work done? If it was more than 30,000 miles ago, then it is time. Also: has the H2O pump been replaced? If not, it's good insurance to replace it (typically interval is every 60,000 miles).

If you're going to replace the timing belt / H2O pump, here are some other 'while you're there' items you may want to replace:
- Cam seal/crank seal
- Valve cover gasket
- Timing belt rollers
- Oil cooler seals
- Coolant flush

After a couple of seasons of track use, be sure to replace the rod bearings. You shouldn't have to worry about it now, since the car wasn't tracked. But once you start playing, you need to keep your rod bearings in mind. A spun #2 rod bearing can really get ya down. (Note: this has never happened to me, knock on wood...)

Also: has the car been lowered? If so, you should check the A-arms. Then tend to develop stress cracks on lowered cars due to the ball joint binding.

Like you say, the S2 is more suited for AX, while the 951 is a bit better for DE's, where it has room to get on the boost. But the S2 is still a quite capable DE car - and you don't have any 'suddenly on boost' issues in the corners!

Are you coming to the NNJR PCA AX this Sunday? I'll be there - if you want a ride in my S2, I'd be happy to do so - hopefully I can convince you it's a better choice for you!

-Z-man.

cobalt

All fingers point to what you are saying. After looking at a number of S2's This one by far is the nicest, cleanest best maintained car. I really think the S2 is more what we need. My wife Cindy will not like any sudden surges created by a turbo car.

The price for the S2 is more than fair, until you start adding the tensioner replacement, fluid flush, new shocks and tires. As said earlier the steering felt heavy so I am assuming the PS filter is gone and needs replacement also. Once I add all this we are up there.

I can pick up a very nice 89 turbo S with the same mileage, fully inspected with all records, window sticker etc, etc for the same amount. The turbo now offers all the extras. Bigger brakes, Better suspension, forged wheels, perfect paint, and so on. This car is sold by a reputable mechanic that will stand behind the car.

If I am going to spend X for the S2 in the end my thinking is why not buy the Turbo S for the same price.

This is more stress than it is worth.

Unfortunately I cannot make this sundays AX event. I really want to make it but my son is receiving first Communion. I will be there the following week no matter what. By then I may have whatever I decide to buy or a nervous break down whichever occurs first.

BTW the work(Tbelt/Wpump etc) on the S2 was within the past 10k miles with clutch performed more recently.

Jfrahm

Don't confuse the timing _belt_ system with the timing _chain_ system. The chain drives the intake cam from the exhaust cam, and has plastic pads/ramps on the tensioner assembly that are critical. IMO the upper pad ($20-$25 at your dealer, 928 part number) is the only one to bother replacing at the 100K or so mark. Some people buy the whole $200 assembly but the bottom pad is not stressed and does not have the failure issues of the top pad.

If the top pad fails it generally causes the chain to grab the tensioner assembly and rip it off the head. Ouch! Often the cams are damaged when this happens, and they are quite expensive to replace. Sometimes the head can be repaired, sometimes not. It's much cheaper and easier to change that tensioner pad every 100K or so.

32v 928s have the same tensioner system in the heads, and while it is taking longer for this problem to surface I believe it is becoming a concern there too.
Probably because 928s have softer valve springs.

-Joel.

baldheadracing

Yup - timing belt tensioner assembly - nice to have working right, but it doesn't actually do anything after adjustment as it is locked down. I agree that this is probably what the owner's mechanics are talking about, with the reference to rollers.

Timing chain tensioner is the one I think we are all talking about. Only a shop that has experiences with S and S2 will know about it as it is not mentioned anywhere in the factory literature.

Now, as for pad vs. the whole thing, well, I don't know why this is, or what effect it will have, but old used tensioners that I've looked at always feel like they have a much stronger spring than a new unit. Now I don't know whether this is because the spec was changed, or there is something in the ageing process of the whole tensioner unit that does this (obviously springs don't get stronger with age!). However, too much tension will stress, and eventually stretch, the chain, causing cam gear wear, etc., and eventually leading to very bad things. Again, just a theory, but I'm willing to bet the extra money between a pad and the whole tensioner as insurance against a head repair. Mind you, I also did the chain at about 110k, and the rod bearings. (I have experienced rod bearing failure in my 924S.)

Finally, although I'm an S2 owner, I'd rather autox a stock turbo S with a good working LSD than a stock S2 with an open diff - well, I'd prefer a stock S2 with M030 and LSD, actually . I guess it all depends on what you want to do with the car, what modifications you may be considering, etc. In any case, it sounds like you can't go wrong with either car.

BTW, not sure how you're pricing shocks, but Jason at Paragon has a Koni kit now that goes into the S2 strut housing, saving significant money.

Fishey

More important then mileage is time! How long have the belts been on the car?

cobalt

Belts and everything else were recently completed. Only issue was the cam tensioner/chain.

Good News, the owner of the car has reduced the price to cover the cost of the cam tensioner so it looks like the S2 wins over the turbo S. Unless the deal goes south should have the car by this weekend.

baldheadracing

Cool! BTW, from your sig, you must like PS2's. How do you find them in autox?

cobalt

Looking forward to picking the car up Sunday. Sounds like a really nice example.

Regarding the PS2's. They are very nice tires. They stick under all conditions and really are some of the best tires I have driven on. They are also very quiet compared to most other tires. The down sides are they are expensive, too expensive for autocross and can be a little nervous in a straight line. I find the 235's in the front of the turbo to be more nervous than the 225's in the front of the GTS. I think for the money the PS's are equally as good and not so much $$. The S2 will get a dedicated autocross tire for now. Not sure what as there is limited supply in the 16" 225/245 sizes. Looks like V700 and Toyo RA1's are all that are available.

baldheadracing

Well, there is Hoosier ...

I ran 225/50x16 and 265/45x16 V710's last year (7.5" and 9" rims). They've heat-cycled out now for autox or time trials, but I'm still trying to kill them. If I was doing autox this year, I'd probably run four 225/50 V710's. They're pretty wide for a 225. I have run V700s (245 fr / 265 rr and 225 fr / 245 rr, would probably go 245 on 9" all around) and RA-1's (225 fr / 245 rr). That's pretty much my order of preference, too ... I still have two sets of half-worn RA-1's lying around ...

This year, however, I'm looking for the dry stick of R's but with better-than-RA-1 wet weather and hydroplaning performance. Noise is irrelevant - I'm rallying the car. Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to groove, otherwise I'd run PSC. I'm leaning towards Falken Azenis right now (on 17"), but RE50A PP or RE-01R or PS2 seem to be the other logical choices.

gmsracing

Seems like a no brainer. If you can get a Turbo S for the same price as an S2 than the S2 is either over priced or the Turbo is a deal. Forget auto cross and take the Turbo to a real track.

callmethewanderer

congrats, so hook us up with the turbo!

cobalt

Thanks,

From what I hear the turbo sold. I will check and Pm you with the info if it is still available.