SunKing

Hi All,

I have a 1987 944S, and I'm in one of those situations where not being a mechanic (or mechanically inclined) sucks. To make a long story short, I was having my car serviced today when the mechanic basically told me that my belts/rollers were pretty old, which immediately struck a chord seeing as I had them replaced in July of this year and only 6,000 miles ago, with another mechanic. He seemed very convinced that the belts were old and suggested I confront the other mechanic about it- which I did.

Well, the other mechanic was very defensive (predictably) and swore he replaced the cam belt/cam chain- but not the rollers. When I looked back at the invoice, it's true that he didn't charge me for the rollers, although I had asked him to do that. He told me he "checked their condition and they seemed fine"...so he didn't replace them. However, if I remember correctly, I've always had those done when changing the belts on my P-cars as a preventive measure. He told me that he was trying to save me money ad the rollers would have cost an additional $410 USD. As for the belt he said it would be "impossible to tell if it were old or new, even after only a little use". I ended our "discussion" by saying I'd have the mechanic who brought this to my attention call him directly tomorrow, which I think he'll do. Both mechanics are qualified Porsche independent specialists, both come highly recommended, and both seemed sincere.

Thus, my questions are as follows:

1. How hard is it really to tell if belts have been replaced recently? The fact is, they were supposedly replaced less than 5 months and 6,000 miles ago. The first mechanic said that all the lettering etc. was worn off them and they looked like they couldn't possibly be only 5 months old. The mechanic who did the work said they look old quickly because they rub against the water pump.

2. Would replacing the rollers add an additional $410 USD to a belt job? This seems a bit absurd to me, even considering I am living in one of the most expensive areas in the world to maintain a Porsche (London).

So....which one is either lying or confused? Any insight you could give would be most appreciated as I try to assess the situation.

Many Thanks,

THE SUN KING
1987 944S
2004 Ford Excursion (Just kidding)

livewirevoodoo

$410 seems a lil high. Even with it being an "S", paying full price for parts on the rollers shouldnt be more than $100. What is your hourly labor charge? I pay around $70/hr.. If he's in there doing the belts, I dont think the rollers would take 4+ hrs to do.

Then again, I'm not a porsche certified mechanic, so YMMV.

Zero10

Yep, rollers shouldn't be more than $100 for parts, and $.01 for labor =) It takes about 30 seconds to change the rollers while you're in there, IMHO, a good mechanic shouldn't even consider the labor on them.

Also, in my opinion, you can tell a rough age of the belts by looking at them. The rubber will gray a little bit with age, and even after 10 years, and over 100,000km's on my belts (when I changed them!) I could still read the writing on the cam belt...

cortez

$400 for rollers is excessive. Also, last time I had my belts/rollers/waterpump etc. done [about a month ago], the belt still looked brand new after about 15k mi. Just makes sense to change it no matter what, along with the rollers, etc. The whole thing costs between $500-$1K depending on what they charge for labor. If I remember, my cost was about $650ish depending on what they find "while they are in there."

9five1

http://www.vertexauto.com/item.wws?s...vertexauto.com

SunKing

Hi All,

Thanks for your responses. Some people I've spoken to think that it's hard to really judge belt age, while others disagree. I guess my next question is, since he didn't change the rollers, how long (how many miles) should I risk going without changing those (Separately- Aaarrgh!)?

Thanks,

SunKing

wjk_glynn

In the San Francisco Bay Area, labor rates are $90-$110/hour at an independant Porsche shop.

Typically a belt job runs about $400 (or a small bit more) for parts and labor.

The last time I had my belts (and rollers) done, this is what I was charged the following for the parts:

Belts

Timing Belt [p/n 944-105-323-02], 1x $60.00

Power Steering Belt [p/n 999-192-236-50], 1x $18.90

Alternator and A/C Belt [p/n 999-192-299-50], 1x $12.50

Balance Shaft Belt [p/n 944-102-219-04], 1x $80.00


Rollers ($241.50 total for the following list)

Balance Shaft Belt Roller (toothed) [p/n 944-102-025-07]

Balance Shaft Belt Roller (idle) [p/n 944-102-277-06]

Timing Belt Roller (water pump) [p/n 944-105-241-03]

Timing Belt Roller (toothed gear) [p/n 944-105-631-10]

Timing Belt Roller (for 16v 944) [p/n 944-105-241-02]


I can't seperate out the actual cost for labor at that time because I had a lot of other work done...

Karl.

SunKing

Thanks Karl, that helps a lot!

my84-944

I just got a price quote for my 84 944 na at the local dealer here in Oregon and they said the cost of both "cam rollers" was about $60.00(US Dollars) and the whole belt job was about $700.00(USD). Even with not knowing the exact exchange rate or cost difference from London to Portland, it seems to me like your first mechanic was making some kind of lame excuse. Ask the second guy how much rollers would cost and if he is honest, maybe go with him. Yopu may also want to ask the first for a refund, because if he made an excuse like this:
("He told me that he was trying to save me money and the rollers would have cost an additional $410")
and it is bogus, then would he lie about doing the belt in the first place? I would be inclined to think so myself. In his business it should all be about ethics and honesty. It is in mine and I sell cars for a living, and we all know what theives we are. Take it from one who knows many tricks, there is a way to use his own words aginst him to get at the real truth.
Good luck man,
Chris...

SunKing

Hi Guys,

Well, I have a quasi-happy ending to share with you...the second mechanic called the slimeball one to back me up, and although the questionable one still insists the cambelt was replaced, he has tacitly admitted that it was grossly negligent of him to not replace the rollers or any of the other belts during the service, especially since I asked him to do all that (Unfortunately I hadn't noticed when I picked the car up that there were no separate line items for those parts on the invoice, because he was doing a bunch of other stuff too and I just verified that the total charge matched his estimate). So he's agreed to put the rollers and other belts on and will only charge me for the parts, not the labor.

It's pathetic but basically some of these idiots will actually cut corners in order to keep the price lower when they give you a quote and thus get your business. They'll "save" you 30 bucks by not replacing one of the belts (and failing to specifically mention this) and then when it snaps your whole engine explodes- Nice.

Anyway, thanks very much for your comments & support!

The Sun King

AZ968Cab

I know I'm late on this one but receipts are the best way to tell age, Unless you're inheriting the car from someone else without receipts (which brings up a ton of other concerns that I won't go in to) it's the only child proof way.

As far as the costs are concerned, I pay $80/hour here in Scottsdale for an independent shop and when they replace belts they do all them with tensioners and rollers and I pay in the neighborhood of $350 out the door. By nature I don't like/trust attorneys or mechanics but these guys really know their s#&t and have talked me out of unnecessary work (performance tweeks that I thought/heard may work). - Chris