What is a Supercar?
10-29-2003, 10:54 PM
#31
Drifting
OK maybe i can put this in now. The solar flares are screwing things up, I had posted here at the end of the first page but it was interrupted.
The 928 is a supercar because it was a supercar. If something was "something" you don't strip it of its somethingness because the bar has been raised. A doctor of the 1890's is still called a doctor even though he didn't know **** about medecine, etc.
The 928 only had the testarossa and countach as competition in its heyday and often one the overall. Check all the old car mags for that at jorj's site. Just cause we bought them cheap doesn't change the orig sticker shock.
The reasons its not viewed by those who have not driven it as a supercar are;
1- paint colors -dull but classy
2- factory wheels- hopelessly dull
3- exhuast note- laid back on most versions
This is because of its buyers. Every niche car has a target buyer. The 928 had company presidents in their 50's, while ferrari and lambo had the people i drove with last saturday - chains, jumpsuits, slick hair.
And now this, NOT meant as a shot to anyone, but a lot of you guys are forgetting something. Some of us have different engines and other items. The early us versions are down 75 to 100 HP from the euro's, gt's and gts's. Until you drive those don't think the 928's pinnacle was the early 4.5. Also a supercar is not stoplight drags with fuzzy dice. Its incredible handling and braking in the triples on curvy roads.
When i drove home from sitting in a murcielago and driving with every other exotic i was smiling more than usual in my shark. Heat flowing silently, tunes surrounding me in the most comfortable drivers position i've seen, insulated from any road noise with tons of power under my foot, I knew that i had the best all-around car at that event.
Tom
1985 928s2 euro
well maybe the modena
The 928 is a supercar because it was a supercar. If something was "something" you don't strip it of its somethingness because the bar has been raised. A doctor of the 1890's is still called a doctor even though he didn't know **** about medecine, etc.
The 928 only had the testarossa and countach as competition in its heyday and often one the overall. Check all the old car mags for that at jorj's site. Just cause we bought them cheap doesn't change the orig sticker shock.
The reasons its not viewed by those who have not driven it as a supercar are;
1- paint colors -dull but classy
2- factory wheels- hopelessly dull
3- exhuast note- laid back on most versions
This is because of its buyers. Every niche car has a target buyer. The 928 had company presidents in their 50's, while ferrari and lambo had the people i drove with last saturday - chains, jumpsuits, slick hair.
And now this, NOT meant as a shot to anyone, but a lot of you guys are forgetting something. Some of us have different engines and other items. The early us versions are down 75 to 100 HP from the euro's, gt's and gts's. Until you drive those don't think the 928's pinnacle was the early 4.5. Also a supercar is not stoplight drags with fuzzy dice. Its incredible handling and braking in the triples on curvy roads.
When i drove home from sitting in a murcielago and driving with every other exotic i was smiling more than usual in my shark. Heat flowing silently, tunes surrounding me in the most comfortable drivers position i've seen, insulated from any road noise with tons of power under my foot, I knew that i had the best all-around car at that event.
Tom
1985 928s2 euro
well maybe the modena
10-30-2003, 03:25 AM
#32
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I suppose "supercar" would be a subjective term based on one's opinion. To some it is image, others price, still others maybe speed and or uniqueness. I have always enjoyed the 928, especially the S4 and up series. However, I have found that I am of the minority as many take a blind eye to a passing 928. Even my friends do not pay any attention to them. Could it be that they have been around for so long and no longer excite the senses? Could not be price as many still believe the prices hover over 50k for a clean example. Regardless, I would think that the best person to judge this would be the owner of the car. I personally consider the 928 to be a supercar/exotic. One of my prior 44's just blended into the crowd. But when I had it painted canary yellow, chrome wheels, complete body kit (tasteful), it received plenty of looks and compliments. It was even in European Car Mag. But then, maybe I am confusing exotic (supercar) with uniqueness as I see several 44's all day long and nobody pays much(any) attention to them, but when I do come across a nice 928, at least I am looking.
10-30-2003, 05:55 AM
#33
Pro
Jon J;
I have that very magazine! Very flattering(for 928 owners, not Aston Martin owners...) article indeed. I too like the look of the early cars. I particularly dislike the rubber "fenders" on the side of my "S".
I remember one article about the 928 (can't remember where I read it, must be in one of my many car magazines) where the tester was truly impressed by the car and considered it to be better than anything comparable. I remember the last phrase well: "It is no longer a car, it is a throne of the gods!"
I think europeans look at cars a little different than americans. I think here in europe there is less fascination about power numbers and acceleration times and more about handling and "feel" of the car. Remember, a Mini Cooper S was faster than a Aston Martin DB6 over the twisty alps in the Monte Carlo races...
I consider a "Supercar" as a car that does everything considered important in a normal car, but much better. Better acceleration, top speed, handling, brakes, looks, comfort and practicality. If you take away practicality and comfort, you have a Sports Car...
I have that very magazine! Very flattering(for 928 owners, not Aston Martin owners...) article indeed. I too like the look of the early cars. I particularly dislike the rubber "fenders" on the side of my "S".
I remember one article about the 928 (can't remember where I read it, must be in one of my many car magazines) where the tester was truly impressed by the car and considered it to be better than anything comparable. I remember the last phrase well: "It is no longer a car, it is a throne of the gods!"
I think europeans look at cars a little different than americans. I think here in europe there is less fascination about power numbers and acceleration times and more about handling and "feel" of the car. Remember, a Mini Cooper S was faster than a Aston Martin DB6 over the twisty alps in the Monte Carlo races...
I consider a "Supercar" as a car that does everything considered important in a normal car, but much better. Better acceleration, top speed, handling, brakes, looks, comfort and practicality. If you take away practicality and comfort, you have a Sports Car...
10-30-2003, 09:35 AM
#34
Three Wheelin'
Can I chime in here? 
I think that there is actually a difference between a "supercar" and an "exotic" car. A supercar is just that. As someone else has already mentioned (and I wrote yesterday and lost when I couldn't hit the site...argh!!!!!), compare yearly models to yearly models. Compare the percentage of types of cars and numbers made to the 928 and it's performance levels to the other cars out there and you will find it right at or near the top for what was available at the time. Supercars as most others feel should be somewhat difficult to acquire, ie low production numbers and high sticker price, which is why the Corvette (except the ZR-1 when it was made and it's hard to argue that it wasn't one based on the same criteria of that year) is not a supercar. The Viper is arguable. These cars can be reliable, they can be somewhat practical, but they must excel at almost everything....braking, handling, acceleration. Yes, nowadays there is a 500+ HP E55 AMG Mercedes that I think fits that definition. I have no doubt that the 928 does as well (and although a bit less pricey, the 944 Turbo slots in there as well with it's moderately high price and only 25,000 of them made for the whole world over it's production run).
Now, an exotic.....those cars are ones that meet the supercar criteria AND and more expensive usually, can be cantankerous, unreliable, and cost unbelievable amounts to maintain. Plus they have to have looks that stun the average person. My car turns a lot of heads, but also gets ignored a lot as well as nowadays it's just another gray car on the road...but that's also kind of fun, too....hehe. Does the 928 qualify? Maybe not....but at one time if it did, it has been surpassed by so many newer and wilder designs that it's classic lines have been overlooked with all of the ducts and wings and so forth, which to me on some cars do not help.....especially if they are not functional as well as having form.
I think that there is actually a difference between a "supercar" and an "exotic" car. A supercar is just that. As someone else has already mentioned (and I wrote yesterday and lost when I couldn't hit the site...argh!!!!!), compare yearly models to yearly models. Compare the percentage of types of cars and numbers made to the 928 and it's performance levels to the other cars out there and you will find it right at or near the top for what was available at the time. Supercars as most others feel should be somewhat difficult to acquire, ie low production numbers and high sticker price, which is why the Corvette (except the ZR-1 when it was made and it's hard to argue that it wasn't one based on the same criteria of that year) is not a supercar. The Viper is arguable. These cars can be reliable, they can be somewhat practical, but they must excel at almost everything....braking, handling, acceleration. Yes, nowadays there is a 500+ HP E55 AMG Mercedes that I think fits that definition. I have no doubt that the 928 does as well (and although a bit less pricey, the 944 Turbo slots in there as well with it's moderately high price and only 25,000 of them made for the whole world over it's production run).
Now, an exotic.....those cars are ones that meet the supercar criteria AND and more expensive usually, can be cantankerous, unreliable, and cost unbelievable amounts to maintain. Plus they have to have looks that stun the average person. My car turns a lot of heads, but also gets ignored a lot as well as nowadays it's just another gray car on the road...but that's also kind of fun, too....hehe. Does the 928 qualify? Maybe not....but at one time if it did, it has been surpassed by so many newer and wilder designs that it's classic lines have been overlooked with all of the ducts and wings and so forth, which to me on some cars do not help.....especially if they are not functional as well as having form.
10-30-2003, 09:56 AM
#35
Race Director
I often play with the thought of replacing the 928 with something else but can't really think of any car in the GT-category that brings out the same "me-wants" feelings except for newer Ferraris and Porsches.
If I then take purchase price into mind those comparisons are really ridicilous...
The cars I'd like to add to the stable if I had a lot more money would be a 968 Convertible and a 993 turbo. But none of those cars compare to the 928 in all areas, just like the 928 doesn't compare to them in all.
If I then take purchase price into mind those comparisons are really ridicilous...
The cars I'd like to add to the stable if I had a lot more money would be a 968 Convertible and a 993 turbo. But none of those cars compare to the 928 in all areas, just like the 928 doesn't compare to them in all.
10-30-2003, 01:36 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Okay, this is completely subjective...
A supercar is one that makes me drool from the sight of it, and gives me a chubby when I drive it. This is the 928.
....I just don't get that from my 325iC.
A supercar is one that makes me drool from the sight of it, and gives me a chubby when I drive it. This is the 928.
....I just don't get that from my 325iC.
10-30-2003, 03:43 PM
#38
No, no, no. This is the only real Supercar:
http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~bat/GA/SC-...P/sc-bp-01.jpg
For those of you to young to remember, "Supercar" was an old TV series done with marionettes by Gerry and Sylvia Anderson. If you've see any of the recent 'Orbitz' commercials you get the idea.
http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~bat/GA/SC-...P/sc-bp-01.jpg
For those of you to young to remember, "Supercar" was an old TV series done with marionettes by Gerry and Sylvia Anderson. If you've see any of the recent 'Orbitz' commercials you get the idea.
10-30-2003, 03:53 PM
#39
928 Barrister
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I must agree with TV. It matters not at all if the general populace notices or even is aware of the existence of a supercar or exotic. In fact there are cars many people wouldn't recognize from continent to continent. In Europe, there are models not sold in the US and vice versa. It is true performance that counts, in all areas including the fantastically designed driver's seating position. Supercars are not so super unless you take into view the mundane and mediocre design of all the "other " cars on the road. I know of no other car that provides as well designed a driver's position as a 928, and I have had plenty of other Porsches. I also include Mercedes in that catagory. Some tools just work better than most others.
I also agree that we sometimes forget that the 928 was targeted at a small percentage of the market: staid, conservative, and not the average buyer. In fact, for years I ignored the car because of the colors which I regarded as "General Motors blah" suitable for bankers (no offense intended, as I am now in that catagory and age group and mine is grey).
That is......until I was urged to drive one. Then the smile on my face erased all of my ignorant attitude of the past.
A supercar puts you into a performance realm not available to the average driver. A level of sophistication not known or expected by most drivers. And this level is not necessarily apparent from visually inspecting the car while it is sitting at the curb.
And I really don't care if the general populace, girls, or anything or anybody "takes notice" of the car. That's not why I have and drive it. Those that understand it's value notice it. And they are in the minority as is the case with most other superior aspects of life. The 928 doesn't "try" to be anything more than what it is: a superior GT automobile for transporting 2 adults and their luggage long distances at relatively great speed, comfort and safety.
I also agree that we sometimes forget that the 928 was targeted at a small percentage of the market: staid, conservative, and not the average buyer. In fact, for years I ignored the car because of the colors which I regarded as "General Motors blah" suitable for bankers (no offense intended, as I am now in that catagory and age group and mine is grey).
That is......until I was urged to drive one. Then the smile on my face erased all of my ignorant attitude of the past.
A supercar puts you into a performance realm not available to the average driver. A level of sophistication not known or expected by most drivers. And this level is not necessarily apparent from visually inspecting the car while it is sitting at the curb.
And I really don't care if the general populace, girls, or anything or anybody "takes notice" of the car. That's not why I have and drive it. Those that understand it's value notice it. And they are in the minority as is the case with most other superior aspects of life. The 928 doesn't "try" to be anything more than what it is: a superior GT automobile for transporting 2 adults and their luggage long distances at relatively great speed, comfort and safety.
10-30-2003, 04:10 PM
#40
Burning Brakes
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Tom,
Saw your post re: the 928 being a supercar. I agree with you...I had only a few car posters in my room back in that era....the BMW e28 535is (which I own) and the Porsche 928s4 (which I own) and the Porsche 911 (which I eventually want). In terms of the whole supercar status thing...I agree that that concept is a moving target. What qualified as a "supercar" in the 70s, 80, and 90s, will be different "now" and in the future. FWIW, I too think the 200+mph benchmark is at least one of the "modern" criteria for bestowing the supercar adjective. Our beloved 928s are just too comfortable, practical, "economical" (steady 22 mpg hwy w/ a-c ON), roomy for the label to stick in the general public's mind...
Cheers to all,
Tim
Saw your post re: the 928 being a supercar. I agree with you...I had only a few car posters in my room back in that era....the BMW e28 535is (which I own) and the Porsche 928s4 (which I own) and the Porsche 911 (which I eventually want). In terms of the whole supercar status thing...I agree that that concept is a moving target. What qualified as a "supercar" in the 70s, 80, and 90s, will be different "now" and in the future. FWIW, I too think the 200+mph benchmark is at least one of the "modern" criteria for bestowing the supercar adjective. Our beloved 928s are just too comfortable, practical, "economical" (steady 22 mpg hwy w/ a-c ON), roomy for the label to stick in the general public's mind...
Cheers to all,
Tim
10-31-2003, 04:32 AM
#41
Race Director
A swedish car TV show had a 20 minute feature on the new Bentley Coupe (Continental) and that car I believe is very similar to the 928 concept. Except for that it has a 560hp W12 twin turbo engine. I wonder if 750 hp will be possible with a few mods..
10-31-2003, 11:52 AM
#42
Three Wheelin'
In it's stock form, I do not think the 928 offers the looks, nor performance, to warrant 'SuperCar' status.
Strictly from a performance standpoint in it's stock form, it can barely get out of it's own way, just look at any 1/4 mile or 0 - 60 times; mediocre at best! And before anyone else says it, that includes the so-called 'massive power/torque' at over 100 mph. By the way, those who tout the '..she really gets going at over 100 mph' stuff, how often can you drive that way in the US? The car is simply too heavy and is shackled by too high gearing.
As for looks, the stock skinny S4 flats and earlier wheel/tire combos makes the car look like one of those houses built on stilts along the shoreline. They make a wide car look wider yet. Prior to my wheel change, my friends at work would ask how me how my AMC Pacer is doing; now that really hurt, BAD! But now that I've got my new wheels on there, they have lightened up a bit, and now ask me how the RX-7 is doing! Those guys... I love 'em though since I know they're being honest.
Conceptually, they do have a point. The car's length to width ratio makes it look too stubby, almost square like a Pacer; I have always wished Porsche would have brought the waist in some for more of a 'coke bottle' effect. Just think that LaPine wanted the car 6" wider than it is now! What was going through his mind?
So I agree 110% with bcdavis:
How can any design which draws comparisons to AMC Pacer's, RX-7's, and mid 90's Ford Taurus Station Wagon (..far fetched as it may be, but point taken) be considered a SuperCar?
On the other hand, when I look at a Murcialago(?) or even the original outrageous Countach, I think WOW, that's a SuperCar! It is those kind of cars which 'stand out' and shout, 'I'm a SuperCar' if your definition of one includes looks.
Despite these perceptions, I love the 928 dearly and it is a great car in it's own right; but in it's showroom stock form, a SuperCar it is not.
Strictly from a performance standpoint in it's stock form, it can barely get out of it's own way, just look at any 1/4 mile or 0 - 60 times; mediocre at best! And before anyone else says it, that includes the so-called 'massive power/torque' at over 100 mph. By the way, those who tout the '..she really gets going at over 100 mph' stuff, how often can you drive that way in the US? The car is simply too heavy and is shackled by too high gearing.
As for looks, the stock skinny S4 flats and earlier wheel/tire combos makes the car look like one of those houses built on stilts along the shoreline. They make a wide car look wider yet. Prior to my wheel change, my friends at work would ask how me how my AMC Pacer is doing; now that really hurt, BAD! But now that I've got my new wheels on there, they have lightened up a bit, and now ask me how the RX-7 is doing! Those guys... I love 'em though since I know they're being honest.
Conceptually, they do have a point. The car's length to width ratio makes it look too stubby, almost square like a Pacer; I have always wished Porsche would have brought the waist in some for more of a 'coke bottle' effect. Just think that LaPine wanted the car 6" wider than it is now! What was going through his mind?
So I agree 110% with bcdavis:
By bcdavis this thread, page 1
The 928 has supercar qualifications, but not the looks.
Supercars need to stand out.
The 928 has supercar qualifications, but not the looks.
Supercars need to stand out.
On the other hand, when I look at a Murcialago(?) or even the original outrageous Countach, I think WOW, that's a SuperCar! It is those kind of cars which 'stand out' and shout, 'I'm a SuperCar' if your definition of one includes looks.
Despite these perceptions, I love the 928 dearly and it is a great car in it's own right; but in it's showroom stock form, a SuperCar it is not.
10-31-2003, 12:13 PM
#43
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Funny how all this revisionist thinking is happening here. Everyone's mind is filling with todays supercars judging the 928 from 20 years ago.
If this was 1980, 1986, or 1989 everyone would be saying its a 'supercar' because it was a supercar back then. If this 928 is compared to Lambos and the Testarossa in Road and Track, then it make it a supercar. Only a supercar can compare against a countach plain and simple.
Perhaps its not 'the' top supercar from the 1980s but it was one for quite a few years. Once a supercar always a supercar. If this car set a land speed record in 1986? Then how can't it be a supercar.
The car is no lamborghini as far as shock value, but this is beyond a Vette or Mustang.
If this was 1980, 1986, or 1989 everyone would be saying its a 'supercar' because it was a supercar back then. If this 928 is compared to Lambos and the Testarossa in Road and Track, then it make it a supercar. Only a supercar can compare against a countach plain and simple.
Perhaps its not 'the' top supercar from the 1980s but it was one for quite a few years. Once a supercar always a supercar. If this car set a land speed record in 1986? Then how can't it be a supercar.
The car is no lamborghini as far as shock value, but this is beyond a Vette or Mustang.
10-31-2003, 06:55 PM
#44
Burning Brakes
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OK, Maybe the issue is that it SHOULD be a super-car, even today. The Green Bay Blower Boys have shown what it really can do, and I bet one of those cars can kick anything elses ***, even after dropping the 8K after you get a perfect S4 motor to do it to.
So, what would it take to make lets say and 88 S4 a super car:
1) yellow, orange or purple metallic paint just like Lambos, Ferraris, etc.
2) 3 pc. 18" or larger with 255's up front and 295's or as wide a y9u can possibly go in back
3) Tim Murphy's Magic.
4) race seats, custom steering wheel & shifter **** with inerior colors updated to match, but nothing else done inside, since the design is still awesom.
5) H4 8" headlights
6) Oh yeah, the base 88 S4 to start with
Add it up: $30-35K. If I had it, I'd do it. Maybe I still will...- Ruf
So, what would it take to make lets say and 88 S4 a super car:
1) yellow, orange or purple metallic paint just like Lambos, Ferraris, etc.
2) 3 pc. 18" or larger with 255's up front and 295's or as wide a y9u can possibly go in back
3) Tim Murphy's Magic.
4) race seats, custom steering wheel & shifter **** with inerior colors updated to match, but nothing else done inside, since the design is still awesom.
5) H4 8" headlights
6) Oh yeah, the base 88 S4 to start with
Add it up: $30-35K. If I had it, I'd do it. Maybe I still will...- Ruf
10-31-2003, 07:25 PM
#45
Drifting
Hey Lagavulin
Take your friends from work for a ride in your "pacer" on a nice unpopulated twisty stretch of road. Cinch up your belt and let it fly. If they aren't screaming let me out or pushing a hole in the passenger side floor after 2 minutes give me the keys. Then when you finally park it ask them what they think of your pacer.
The look despite the parts that can be upgraded is 50% of the reason for buying the 928 - its timeless. I get into triples 75% of the times i drive it.
Tom
1985 928s2 euro
Take your friends from work for a ride in your "pacer" on a nice unpopulated twisty stretch of road. Cinch up your belt and let it fly. If they aren't screaming let me out or pushing a hole in the passenger side floor after 2 minutes give me the keys. Then when you finally park it ask them what they think of your pacer.
The look despite the parts that can be upgraded is 50% of the reason for buying the 928 - its timeless. I get into triples 75% of the times i drive it.
Tom
1985 928s2 euro