Life Changes Quickly
02-13-2016, 11:36 AM
#16
Rennlist Member
This is maximum suckage.
I am glad your wife appears not to be seriously hurt. So sorry for the car.
Although it will doubtless be months before you will be in a position to replace it, there is a nice Prussian Blue Metallic 86.5 in New Mexico: https://albuquerque.craigslist.org/cto/5430253078.html
I am glad your wife appears not to be seriously hurt. So sorry for the car.
Although it will doubtless be months before you will be in a position to replace it, there is a nice Prussian Blue Metallic 86.5 in New Mexico: https://albuquerque.craigslist.org/cto/5430253078.html
02-13-2016, 12:42 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Good news that your wife seems to be OK. That is the most important part. Very sorry to hear about the loss of the car, but that's what insurance is for. I hope everything works out well and that she will soon be back behind the wheel of another 928!
Cheers!
Carl
Cheers!
Carl
02-13-2016, 01:05 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
I too am sorry to see that this has happened to you and your wife. I hope she is OK!
As to the 928 I have quite a bit to suggest about how you might deal with that. First, I hope you either drove it home or had the tow truck take it home. It is probably a mistake to let a tow truck take it to their lot so they can start charging storage for it expecting to recover from some insurance company. If it isn't at your house or shop now get it there even if you have to pay a bit out of pocket to get possession of it.
Second, "totaled" has very little to do with how serious the damage might look, but rather it is a function of the cost of repair versus the value of the car. At this point I think you do not know enough to say it is totaled, because you don't actually know either of the factors.
Third, I strongly suggest that you DO NOT get your own insurance company involved. They have the same mind set at the other guy's and they have a significantly different basis to measure your loss. In that regard I suggest that the Texas Jury Instruction about Damage is likely the same as ours' in Colorado. Ours' says that you are entitled the the cost of repair PLUS the reduction in value of the car after it is repaired compared to the pre-accident value. That is called diminished value. Or, you are entitled to the replacement value if the cost of repair and diminished value, plus the salvage value, exceed the pre-accident value.
The reason you don't involve your own insurance company is because you policy of insurance, if you carried collision coverage, says that they don't have to pay you diminished value. What they would likely do if they are involved, if your car is not a total loss, is pay to get it repaired then settle in arbitration with the other insurance company for what they paid and you would be left with a nicely repaired 928, but with a significant damage history. Your diminished value claim will be lost in the shuffle. None of the insurance companies like to acknowledge anything about diminished value, and that includes your own company. Keep them out of it; unless, of course, the other company denies coverage for some reason.
Next, I would leave the car in its present damaged condition until the insurance adjuster has had a chance to look at it. Then I would find a professional automobile value appraiser. They might be in the yellow pages. I think it will cost you 200 to 300 dollars for an appraisal. You need them to write a formal appraisal telling both what the pre-accident value was and what the current salvage value is. If you have a lot of information like Ed has suggested above to offer them that might help with the upper end value. This guy is going to be your potential expert witness.
Then, while the car is still in its present condition, have your own body guy, the one who is real expensive and knows 928s, come and make you an estimate of the cost of repair. Be sure he uses the cost of new parts from the Porsche Company for the hood, fenders, bumper and bumper cover and headlights an all that might need replacing.
Now, let's say that your car was worth $20,000 and the repair cost is $12,000, and that the salvage value is $2500 (and I suspect those might be in the ball park). That means that your car is not totaled. That also means that you are entitled to $12,000 plus the cost of appraisal, and the cost of the rental car you should get immediately for your wife to drive, even if you have to put it on a credit card. Then, going back to your value expert witness, you also need him also to say what the car will be worth after it is nicely repaired, but with significant damage history which we all know will become part of the car's published history, and the insurance company will be sure to see to that. In fact, you can partly blame the diminished value on them because of their need or propensity to report the damage.
On the other hand, if the damage turns out to be greater cost than the car value less the salvage value, it will be considered a total loss. This is where diminished value might work in your favor because of the insurance company's reluctance to deal with it, they may tend to disregard it in the "total" calculation. You don't get diminished value if it is totaled. You get the difference in prior value and salvage value, plus your other costs like the car rental and the appraisal and such.
When you hear things like "buy the car back form the insurance company," I kind of have to wonder about that. It seems to me that if they simply pay you the total loss amount you are entitled to you should simply keep the car. If you take the total value for the car and then buy the car back from them it is going to come back with a rebuild or salvage title. If you can avoid that you should. Salvage history is worse than just damage history, in my opinion. There may be some kind of state regulation or such that somehow requires them to take the car and label it salvage, but that is not included in the jury instruction. If you were to win a judgment against them or the other driver for the total value less the salvage I don't see why they can take the car in the process. You probably need a separate legal opinion about that; and I have not researched that issue at this point.
Now, as to the damage itself, I will take off my attorney hat and put on my 928 hat. I suspect that the damage to your car can be repaired and probably for a fraction of what your repair cost appraisal will likely be. Used hoods and fenders are available for around $200 apiece and the front bumper and bumper cover about the same. When all of that is removed I suspect that there is little if any damage to the front end of the frame horns, and whatever there is can be pulled back straight. You probably wont even need to pull the engine. It looks like the front suspension was not even disturbed. This kind of possible damage is the very reason that the front end is bolted on rather than being welded, aside from the metal difference.
That's my 2 cents worth. I think if you are smart you will find a way to print this post out and study it more carefully as you go. If you want to discuss any of these suggestions further send me a PM and I'll have you give me a call.
As to the 928 I have quite a bit to suggest about how you might deal with that. First, I hope you either drove it home or had the tow truck take it home. It is probably a mistake to let a tow truck take it to their lot so they can start charging storage for it expecting to recover from some insurance company. If it isn't at your house or shop now get it there even if you have to pay a bit out of pocket to get possession of it.
Second, "totaled" has very little to do with how serious the damage might look, but rather it is a function of the cost of repair versus the value of the car. At this point I think you do not know enough to say it is totaled, because you don't actually know either of the factors.
Third, I strongly suggest that you DO NOT get your own insurance company involved. They have the same mind set at the other guy's and they have a significantly different basis to measure your loss. In that regard I suggest that the Texas Jury Instruction about Damage is likely the same as ours' in Colorado. Ours' says that you are entitled the the cost of repair PLUS the reduction in value of the car after it is repaired compared to the pre-accident value. That is called diminished value. Or, you are entitled to the replacement value if the cost of repair and diminished value, plus the salvage value, exceed the pre-accident value.
The reason you don't involve your own insurance company is because you policy of insurance, if you carried collision coverage, says that they don't have to pay you diminished value. What they would likely do if they are involved, if your car is not a total loss, is pay to get it repaired then settle in arbitration with the other insurance company for what they paid and you would be left with a nicely repaired 928, but with a significant damage history. Your diminished value claim will be lost in the shuffle. None of the insurance companies like to acknowledge anything about diminished value, and that includes your own company. Keep them out of it; unless, of course, the other company denies coverage for some reason.
Next, I would leave the car in its present damaged condition until the insurance adjuster has had a chance to look at it. Then I would find a professional automobile value appraiser. They might be in the yellow pages. I think it will cost you 200 to 300 dollars for an appraisal. You need them to write a formal appraisal telling both what the pre-accident value was and what the current salvage value is. If you have a lot of information like Ed has suggested above to offer them that might help with the upper end value. This guy is going to be your potential expert witness.
Then, while the car is still in its present condition, have your own body guy, the one who is real expensive and knows 928s, come and make you an estimate of the cost of repair. Be sure he uses the cost of new parts from the Porsche Company for the hood, fenders, bumper and bumper cover and headlights an all that might need replacing.
Now, let's say that your car was worth $20,000 and the repair cost is $12,000, and that the salvage value is $2500 (and I suspect those might be in the ball park). That means that your car is not totaled. That also means that you are entitled to $12,000 plus the cost of appraisal, and the cost of the rental car you should get immediately for your wife to drive, even if you have to put it on a credit card. Then, going back to your value expert witness, you also need him also to say what the car will be worth after it is nicely repaired, but with significant damage history which we all know will become part of the car's published history, and the insurance company will be sure to see to that. In fact, you can partly blame the diminished value on them because of their need or propensity to report the damage.
On the other hand, if the damage turns out to be greater cost than the car value less the salvage value, it will be considered a total loss. This is where diminished value might work in your favor because of the insurance company's reluctance to deal with it, they may tend to disregard it in the "total" calculation. You don't get diminished value if it is totaled. You get the difference in prior value and salvage value, plus your other costs like the car rental and the appraisal and such.
When you hear things like "buy the car back form the insurance company," I kind of have to wonder about that. It seems to me that if they simply pay you the total loss amount you are entitled to you should simply keep the car. If you take the total value for the car and then buy the car back from them it is going to come back with a rebuild or salvage title. If you can avoid that you should. Salvage history is worse than just damage history, in my opinion. There may be some kind of state regulation or such that somehow requires them to take the car and label it salvage, but that is not included in the jury instruction. If you were to win a judgment against them or the other driver for the total value less the salvage I don't see why they can take the car in the process. You probably need a separate legal opinion about that; and I have not researched that issue at this point.
Now, as to the damage itself, I will take off my attorney hat and put on my 928 hat. I suspect that the damage to your car can be repaired and probably for a fraction of what your repair cost appraisal will likely be. Used hoods and fenders are available for around $200 apiece and the front bumper and bumper cover about the same. When all of that is removed I suspect that there is little if any damage to the front end of the frame horns, and whatever there is can be pulled back straight. You probably wont even need to pull the engine. It looks like the front suspension was not even disturbed. This kind of possible damage is the very reason that the front end is bolted on rather than being welded, aside from the metal difference.
That's my 2 cents worth. I think if you are smart you will find a way to print this post out and study it more carefully as you go. If you want to discuss any of these suggestions further send me a PM and I'll have you give me a call.
Last edited by Jerry Feather; 02-14-2016 at 12:13 PM.
02-13-2016, 01:21 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
P.S. I also suggest that you keep careful track of your time involved in dealing with this entire situation in a separate journal. Keep it in tenths of an hour. Include such things as reading my post or this entire thread and call it "internet research." All the time you miss from or even at work while dealing with this are part of your claim and have nothing to do with the car value. Your wife's lost time also should be covered. Have her do the same.
02-13-2016, 01:24 PM
#21
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Actually most insurance companies will total out a car at 50% -75 % estimated repair cost to value of the car. They have learned over the years that initial repair estimates are only estimates and hidden unforeseen additional repairs are far too common and the diminished value ?? makes it only more expensive and each day they are paying for a rental car . They like to simply punt, payoff based on an adjusted value then sell the car at an insurance salvage auction with a branded title and move on.
Add in the Porsche factor about the quality of the repairs and paint work needed to satisfy the owner and they really do NOT want to fix it !!
Add in the Porsche factor about the quality of the repairs and paint work needed to satisfy the owner and they really do NOT want to fix it !!
02-13-2016, 01:28 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Glad to hear that your wife is ok. Accidents like that are so freaking scary, especially in a classic car like your 86.5. In my opinion, with low miles like that you are looking at 10-15k fair market if its totaled. Of course, I am no expert and not any type of insurance adjustor, but market value on that car (with those low miles) has to be up there; especially if it was a manual transmission car. Just my opinion.
02-13-2016, 01:44 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Glad to hear that your wife is ok. Accidents like that are so freaking scary, especially in a classic car like your 86.5. In my opinion, with low miles like that you are looking at 10-15k fair market if its totaled. Of course, I am no expert and not any type of insurance adjustor, but market value on that car (with those low miles) has to be up there; especially if it was a manual transmission car. Just my opinion.
Many of us on here are simply bottom feeders and see this kind of car in the lower numbers, because that is why we are here. However, the rest of the world swims in shallower water including the insurance companies, I think, where they see values from other sources like some of those suggested above which might be more in the 20 to 25 range, which is where Dins wants to be.
You admit that you are not an expert, so your non-expert opinion is more hurtful than helpful.
02-13-2016, 03:26 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thank for all the well wishes, concern and advice.
You guy's are the top's!
Din's and Debbie
You guy's are the top's!
Din's and Debbie
Last edited by Dinsdale Piranha; 02-18-2016 at 11:03 AM.
02-13-2016, 04:27 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Dins, if your shop is a seperate entity, like a Corporation or LLC, you can probably have it charge you about $25 per day storage for at least the estimated time it would take you to get started and then have it repaired or disposed of. It gets a little complicated, but you do have a duty to minimize your loss even if that means starting now to get it repaired, even if you have not been made whole yet. In other words you may not be entitled to simply wait until the loss is covered, whichever way it goes, to start having it repaired or to have it disposed of if it is a total.
When you know which way the settlement is likely to go, when you have your estimates and valuations done, is when you need to make your own decision about whether it is totaled or can be economically repaired. That is when your storage should end, I think. If it can be economically repaired that is the time when the reasonable repair time should start, even if you don't jump right in on the repair. 30 days might be a reasonable time for the repair to take place, unless there is something really special about it. So you need to be acting now on the valuations and repair estimates. Don't wait to react to the Insurance company's actions, although you wont be disclosing your results to them until after they do.
That's why I suggest you PM me, but since you are meeting with your "other" attorney shortly, you can go over some of this with him or her. However, aside from getting some good advise, this kind of case is not usually worth your paying an attorney to handle it for you, unless there is a personal injury aspect to it, which I hope not. Automobile cases are generally not worth enough to warrant having an attorney handle it since your recovery is always limited (not open ended) and you will not be entitled to recover attorney fees even when you win. Your attorney will end up with the lions share of the settlement on the car damage. I think we can save you that; and I'm happy to help you with it as fellow 928 folks.
This is best handled by you and with as much help as we on here can provide you.
When you know which way the settlement is likely to go, when you have your estimates and valuations done, is when you need to make your own decision about whether it is totaled or can be economically repaired. That is when your storage should end, I think. If it can be economically repaired that is the time when the reasonable repair time should start, even if you don't jump right in on the repair. 30 days might be a reasonable time for the repair to take place, unless there is something really special about it. So you need to be acting now on the valuations and repair estimates. Don't wait to react to the Insurance company's actions, although you wont be disclosing your results to them until after they do.
That's why I suggest you PM me, but since you are meeting with your "other" attorney shortly, you can go over some of this with him or her. However, aside from getting some good advise, this kind of case is not usually worth your paying an attorney to handle it for you, unless there is a personal injury aspect to it, which I hope not. Automobile cases are generally not worth enough to warrant having an attorney handle it since your recovery is always limited (not open ended) and you will not be entitled to recover attorney fees even when you win. Your attorney will end up with the lions share of the settlement on the car damage. I think we can save you that; and I'm happy to help you with it as fellow 928 folks.
This is best handled by you and with as much help as we on here can provide you.
02-13-2016, 04:32 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
P.S. When you do meet with your attorney there I strongly urge you to ask him or her to copy the Texas Jury Instruction about damages for you. Take it with you. It will become a very useful tool in your settlement negotiations, particularly about the diminished value claim.
Also, I suggest that you rent the car for Debbie, and a nice one. You will have some problem recovering the loss of use claim without having some out of pocket expense for another car. In other words you probably wont recover the cost of a rental car without actually having the cost.
Also, I suggest that you rent the car for Debbie, and a nice one. You will have some problem recovering the loss of use claim without having some out of pocket expense for another car. In other words you probably wont recover the cost of a rental car without actually having the cost.
Last edited by Jerry Feather; 02-13-2016 at 05:08 PM.
02-13-2016, 04:43 PM
#29
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Sorry for what happens, glad you wife is fine. James is right, the car is a total loss. Get as much info on fair market value and use that to negotiate OR a professional estimate but that usually values a car not than a fair market value price. Hunker down for the battle and don't give in until you are satisfied.
