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I happened to be in northern Colorado last weekend and had been in contact with Barney and Jerry Feather about this issue.
I did stop by and have a look at Barneys car. Barney has had this car at 4 different shops over the last couple of years. At some point in this time, there was a short that caused some melting of wire insulation in the central electric panel. More info on that here: https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...nsulation.html
I did not have a lot of time before a predicted big snow storm was coming in. I pulled the panel and fixed the fuse block and inserted a new fuel pump fuse.
I inspected the wires and added to the tape that was already there on the exposed wires on the back of the central electric panel to see if we could get it going.
I had an O scope with me and tested the CPS signal, it seemed OK, but we had a spare so I swapped it with no real change. This was the first time I had looked at the 928 CPS signal. I have a great image of it.
What I found with the O scope, was that the Engine Speed signal out of the EZK was bad. At this point I was running real short on time and needed to start packing up.
I offered to take Barneys computers home with me and test them in my car. They work fine by the way. I know the EZK is not known to fail, but did not know if the short in the CEP had maybe done some damage to that output signal??
So I got home and during the snow storm I tested the LH and EZK. Then I verified the Engine Speed signal out of Barneys EZK in my car and it was good signal. This ruled out a bad EZK.
So I went to the electrical diagram and figured that something must be distorting Barneys Engine Speed Signal. I traced the wire and saw that it goes from the EZK to a diagnostic block? (probably not that), Then it went to the LH (not that), then I followed it to the Kick down relay??? Crap, I remembered reading (somewhere) that a relay in that spot will cause a no start condition.
I had taken a picture of Barneys relays and quick pulled it up. Dang, there was a relay in the spot.
I had looked at the top row of relays when I was there but had not looked at the 2nd row of relays. The headlamp wash relay had been moved over 2 spots left to the kick down relay spot. This is definitely a issue that is a factor in the no start condition.
There is no guarantee that moving that relay will fix it, there could be still another issue. But that relay is distorting the engine speed signal and keeping the LH computer from turning on and energizing the fuel pump relay and operating the injectors.
There could still be grounding issues and potential shorts in the injector circuit.
But I am 4 hours from the car, the computers are with me, to quickly check this.
Hi - I don't know if this is relevant here, but my '87 recently also refused to start.
Had spark, had fuel injector pulse, had fuel pressure.
Problem was failed fuel pressure and damper valve ( rear of engine) - removing the vacuum line from the valves and smelling for fuel seem to be the quick test.
Replaced these and all is fine.
So I got Barneys car today.
My first goal was to see if I could get it running, It has been suffering from a non start condition for 3 - 4 years.
I looked at it a week ago, and fixed the fuel pump fuse socket at Barneys house.
It still didn't start, I ran out of time trying to beat a snowstorm home and left.
The next day I was looking at the wiring diagrams and noticed a relay in the kick down relay position could keep the car from starting. I had a picture of Barneys fuse panel and there was a relay in that position!?!
So I got the car at about 3pm today. I reconnected the LH and EZK, that I had out for testing.
I removed the offending relay from the auto kick down spot, reconnected the battery ground strap and turned the key!
So there is unfinished work from 4 shops that have been working on the car previously.
My goal is to get the car running in a safe condition for Barney to continue to enjoy his car.
There is a pretty loud clattering noise from the engine, Lifters? or something else?
The timing belt warning light is lighting up. I did check and adjust the belt, the tension was a little low. I still get the warning light. Any ideas why? Obviously the switch is grounding or there is a short to ground in the harness?
The E- brake was loose, I tightened it up. It will only apply pressure, stop the passenger side wheel, with the car on jack stands, idling in 1st gear.
Clattering is most likely the lifters. Let the car idle for a while as they need to fill with oil again. Pretty common thing and wont cause any harm.
A fresh oil change and some Swepco 502 should have it sorted really quickly.
E brake is easy. There is a round access hole in the rotor itself, or you can take the rotor off. Turn the rotor/hub manually until you can see a metal cog wheel. It's towards the rear on each side.
This controls the e brake adjustment. Turn it with a flat blade screwdriver until you can no longer turn the hub and then back it off 3 notches. Do this for both sides and it should be d*mn near perfect.
Then go inside of the car and adjust the cable so the e brake fully engages after 3 clicks when pulling the handle up. Then it will be per factory spec.
So there is unfinished work from 4 shops that have been working on the car previously.
Oh, Joy. I just love getting them in that condition. Not.
The timing belt warning light is lighting up. I did check and adjust the belt, the tension was a little low. I still get the warning light. Any ideas why? Obviously the switch is grounding or there is a short to ground in the harness?
The tension warning is signaled when the circuit is NOT grounded.
Ockham's Razor says that one of the "4 shops" has disrupted the circuit - it's unplugged, broken, or otherwise upgephucked.
The tension warning is signaled when the circuit is NOT grounded.
Dave, I thought about that after I posted it. It has been a while since I last did a WP Timing belt on my car. So this could just be a wire not connected, an open.
Thanks,
Ken
Last edited by Ken P; 10-17-2017 at 11:53 AM.
Reason: update
Thanks for fixing this mans machine, its too bad a tool jerk touched the CE panel without paying attention.
for the E brakes its a safe bet new E brake shoes are needed,
they are inexpensive and takes about 40 mins a side to install,
the rest is easy since you will lube the star adjuster while swapping in new shoes.
make sure the spring hook grabs the rib on the backing plate,
a good flashlight and mirror answers this question.
I have the car running and have taken it for a drive.
Barney wants to get the car back to Wyoming before the snow flies.
It does have several other issues that I would like to address, but it is drive-able and I think safe, with new tires.
I think this is the culprit of the CE panel issues. Found behind the Drives seat.
It is sad that 4 other shops have mucked with it and not fixed it. I had it going in 15 minutes. Plus 3 days of additional fixes.
Thanks in a big part to the knowledge shared on Rennlist.
A lot of my knowledge is because of the information shared here.
Thank you all very much!
I think the major issues for the failure of this car to start were the fuel pump fuse not fitting well in the CE panel.
This led to the relays being swapped around that led to an incorrect relay being placed into the Auto Trans kick down relay position, on a manual trans car. John Speake's site listed this a possible no start issue. This prevented the car from starting.
Because of the information that I was able to derive from searching this list, I was able to get the car to start in 15 minutes of arrival at my house.
I did spend another 3 days fixing other ancillary issues. More could be fixed!!!
There are many more issues I would like to address and if it were my car would certainly be addressed in short order.
The engine sound is getting better, there is still a loud clatter from one cylinder?
It seems like the engine is missing on one or 2 cylinders, all of the injectors are clicking. Whether they are passing fuel I do not know. This may also clear up.
I sincerely hope that Barney, and original owner brought as a US car as a European delivery as part of his 25th wedding anniversary, can enjoy his car for some more years.
It is sad to know that not even 1 of 4 shops could not have done some simple searches of the internet to find this solution.
I wish I had, had the time 3 - 4 years ago to help
You guys are amazing and make 928 ownership possible.
Thanks,
Ken
'89 928 GT
Last edited by Ken P; 10-18-2017 at 10:34 PM.
Reason: correction
Oh, Joy. I just love getting them in that condition. Not.
Dave, this is rare for me, I really feel for you now.
for the E brakes its a safe bet new E brake shoes are needed,
they are inexpensive and takes about 40 mins a side to install,
the rest is easy since you will lube the star adjuster while swapping in new shoes.
make sure the spring hook grabs the rib on the backing plate,
a good flashlight and mirror answers this question.
Stan, I looked into this and they are completely rusted up. A broken spring came out as I removed one rotor.
Barney did not seem to want me to work on this and I warned him the e-brake only grabs on one side.
Last edited by Ken P; 10-19-2017 at 06:37 PM.
Reason: correction
Well, I had the car running. But it was missing on one or two cylinders. It didn't sound so good as a 6 cylinder. So my son and I started looking at it today.
We started pulling plug wires to find out which ones did not make a difference to the engine running. We found #1 and #7 to be not contributing to the running.
We tested compression and spark for both of those cylinders and they were both good, well the gap on the plug for cylinder 7 was about .016 instead of .028.
So we started to pull the fuel rails, on the passenger side we found that the rail was not even held down by nuts. The washers were there, but no nuts.
I pulled the #1 injector and manually operated it hooked up to some fresh gas. It only dribbled. I kept operating it and it developed into a nice stream and then into a better spray.
Good one issue was fixed.
We went to the fuel rail on the other side and quickly found that the #7 injector was not even plugged in. Easy enough, plug in and go.
Six of the injectors did not have the spring clips on their connectors, they were in a bag, so we installed them so they would not come loose.
We buttoned it all up and fired it up and now is sounds like a proper 928 motor, except for the clatter at idle. The clatter seems to fade out some as the oil pressure goes up when coming off of idle.
I feel a lot better about it now. Barney's 87 is running much better now after having not run for 3 -4 years.
Hopefully the clatter will continue to clear up.
12-11-2016, 02:04 PM
