STRIKEMASTER

HELP CIS GURU'S
My '83 Euro CIS car won't idle once it's hot. It runs good, revs to 5k, but won't stay lit when hot. Had it in Phila. 2 days ago, no idle problems. Took her to work yesterday and the idle was fluctuating ( 700>400 RPM) . I put $30 in gas and a can of Sea-Foam in it, and drove home. Now it wont idle once it is hot. I got done with replacing the TB/WP, cam gears, oil pump gear timing gears, P tension-er and rollers & She ran great, till now. I haven't done anything to the CIS (yet). Cold idle is 1500 RPM. If what I found doing the TB/WP, I don't think any work has been done on my M-28/11 engine in a long time. TIA for your help.

jpitman2

Does it drive ok hot? Is there any sign that its going rich or lean at idle? Does the idle adjuster have any effect on the hot idle? Have you put a pressure gauge on the WUR? Is the aux air valve closed when hot - a 1500 cold idle says the valve is well open when cold? Any sign of an air leak at idle - spray something lightly flammable (WD40?) on all air flow joints and listen for a change of rpm.

jp 83 Euro S AT 56k CIS

STRIKEMASTER

Thanks for the feedback. Haven't played with the CIS yet. It runs good cold. The cold start injector & aux air valve are working fine, shuts off after about 2 minutes. Once it warms up the idle surges between 300 & 800 RPM and the engine tends to stall out if the RPM is too low ( 100-200-RPM). It went from running good to having a hot idle problem in 2 DAYS!! That has me tending to think it's plugged up with something, rather than 'out of adjustment'. I'll try the trick with brake cleaner and see if I have an air leak. I could have a "Spontaneous Pheumo-Thorax". LOL

STRIKEMASTER

Got home from work early today, so I played with the shark some. Twisted the key 3 times while I said the 'Shark Drivers Prayer'--"Some Sharks do 160, Some do 159, If I can make mine run at all I think I'm doing fine" ---and it fired right up away. Cold idle at 1500 rpm. I squirted brake cleaner on every rubber hose junction I could see and there was no change,so I don't think I have vacuum leak. Once it warmed up, the idle dropped to about 800 RPM but kept pulsating from 800-400 rpm. When I revved it up to 3K and backed off abruptly, the RPM dropped off to 0(!!??!!) and then pulsed from 0 to about 800 RPM. One post said I should disable the ignition, jumper the fuel pump relay and run Techron or ChemTool thru the system for 30 minutes, BUT, seeing as I have K-Jet, I think that would hydro-lock the engine.
AND NOW- For some 'side angle thinking': NOT what did I do to the car last, but what did I NOT do---When I had it apart I also did the distributor, rotor, plugs and wires, but then I got "antsy" about driving it and put it back together WITHOUT doing the plugs and wires at the rear of the engine. It may have misfire from the old plugs.

jpitman2

Jumpering the pump will NOT flood the engine - with the air plate shut , the injectors SHOULD NOT open. I ran the pump for 1/2 hour once after a tank and lines refurb, and it fired up immediately afterwards.
Try clamping some air lines like the aux air valve feed and the vacuum lines to the dizzy while the idle is hunting and see if anything changes.

jp 83 Euro S AT 56k

STRIKEMASTER

New rotor, cap, wires and plugs installed. cold idle is a little better, but still wont idle when warmed up. Took her out on RT-95 for an 'Italian Tuneup'. She runs smoother but the power is still down a little. --2500 RPM at 60 M.P.H. instead of 2100 rpm at 60. ---Old plugs covered with dry carbon (see Pix) so I think it's running rich and it's loading up and dieing. At least i'm not burning oil. LOL. From the looks of the plugs, I don't even want to think about how much carbon is on the pistons. Now that I'm down to 1/4 tank I'll put more Techron in it and see it that helps. I'm not going to play with the C.I.S. till I get some gages. Looks like I'll spend Labor Day Weekend under the car AGAIN(!) At least the plugs give me some idea where to start. I still don't understand how she can go from running good to running like crap in 2 days?!?!??
Anyone have experience with C.I.S. gages from Tool Aid? I found their K-jet Fuel Injector tester set #33865 on Amazon for $119 /w free shipping. Looks like a good deal, but is it??

LT Texan

I've never had a hot idle problem.

I bought fuel pressure gauges from JC Whitney. They work fine.

No use diagnosing K Jet without gauges.

STRIKEMASTER

Jpit, I ran the fuel pump with the relay jumpered for 30 min and guess what?? The engine is now hydro-locked. It seems that mechanical injectors squirt if they see enough fuel pressure, and in my case they did. SO now do I just wait till tomorrow and see if the fuel drained out of the cylinders, or do I have to take everything apart, pull all the plugs and suck out the fuel?? My only other K-Jet car was a '73 R-17 Gordini and it ran great. The only problem I had with that car was I couldn't get 100 octane gas anymore!! When they said 5-Star;100 octane gas, they meant it!!

jpitman2

The injectors will squirt when they see something like 45-50psi, BUT with the airplate shut (no air being sucked in, as the engine is stationary) the pressure should never get there. I guess you will have to pull the plugs and blow the fuel out. The fact that the injectors did that tells you that something is out of whack in the distributor. Have you tried leaning it out a VERY SMALL amount - the adjuster is VERY sensitive? Search elsewhere for basic tune on CIS.

jp 83 Eur S AT 56k

STRIKEMASTER

Well, I pulled the plugs, ran the engine and "Old Faithful" x8 in the engine bay!! After waiting for everything to dry out, put the plugs back in and took it out on I-95 for a run. Power is still down (65 mph at 2700 rpm instead of 2100 rpm) and when I back off the throttle and depress back the clutch, the engine DIES! Pulled a plug from each side and the NEW plugs are covered with dry black carbon(Again). I've ordered gages for the CIS system and now I need to get a 'ColorTune' plug so I can dial in the air/fuel mix. Now for what may be a really stupid idea: Can I "back flush" the fuel system?? I have another 'no name' fuel pump. If I disconnect the fuel line from the filter output and run a line into a container, connect the output of the 'spare' fuel pump to the fuel return line, put an input line on the spare pump and run pure Techron thru it BACKWARDS, to blow the crap out, will that F things up??? The car went from running good to no hot idle in TWO DAYS!!! This leads me to think that something got sucked into the fuel system and is jamming the metering plunger in the fuel distributor. It acts like the fuel metering plunger is sticking and not dropping back to idle position. That causes the engine to 'flood out' and not idle. If the plunger is 'hung up', then playing with the control pressure and air/fuel mix won't do me any good. "Inside every can of worms, you will find a worm holding another can. If you open THAT can "The Great Worm of ARRAKIS" jumps out and bites off your @SS"

jpitman2

Sounds like its stalling rich when hot, but without pressures we cant diagnose. Please confirm that you are using a DIFFERENT GEAR to see different rpm at 65 ?? Usually when the WUR is a problem you lose power due to lean mixture because a blocked WUR will increase control pressure. To get a rich mixture you need LOW control pressure. Get some control pressure figures as it warms up. If control stays low when hot, carefully open the OUTLET union on the WUR (with rags and extinguisher handy) and see if much fuel comes out - shouldnt be much, as hot control should be around 45psi.
The other possible cause would be high system pressure (should be 65-75psi). If this went high you would go rich all over the range. Pressure regulator problem, or even a blocked return line to the tank can do this - check the return hose into the tank - disconnect short hose from tank gauge fitting, run a line into a container, bridge the pump relay briefly and check for a steady flow of fuel.

jp 83 Euro S AT 56k

STRIKEMASTER

65 mph in 5th gear=2100 rpm--I had a cop friend of mine clock me with radar on I-95 to get that base line figure. (65 mph is the legal limit in my area, ultra fine sharpie line on my speedo face marks the speed.) Since it's been acting up it's consistently turning 25-2600 rpm at 65 mph in 5th. As soon as I get the gages I'll have at the WUR. I'll check the return line and see if I get good return. WSM says fuel pump output should be 1500cc in 30 seconds, so I'll be looking for aprox. that figure from the return line in 30 sec. ( half a 3 Ltr. soda bottle in 30 sec.) right? With an M28/11 engine, fuel pressure should be 5 Bar.(73 psi).

jpitman2

Only way revs will change at same speed in same gear in a 5 speed is clutch slip??? My reading of WSM for fuel delivery for a Euro is 1350ml in 30 secs...I doubt that 10% over will change things, its the pressure thats important.

jp 83 Euro S AT 56k

STRIKEMASTER

I can 'chirp' the tiers from a stand still, & there's no judder when it engages. The pedal feels solid, not mushy. I can rev it in neutral and engage reverse without grinding so the clutch disengages properly. I don't think the clutch is the problem, but I will take a look at it. I don't drag race the car. What stumps me is: It ran good on Monday, started acting up on Tuesday after work and on Wednesday is wouldn't idle at all when hot. I ran the gas down real low on Tuesday, put 15 gallons of premium and a can of Seafoam in it after work. and it started running funny, by Wednesday I had no hot idle. ?!!??

gbgastowers

don't get the colour tune. Just go ahead and get a wideband sensor and gauge like Innovate LC-2. I have a colour tune I'll sell you cheap if you must have it. I thought I was dialed in with it but I was way lean as the new wideband showed me instantly. Must have for CIS in my opinion. You also need to change your oil because of the fuel that passed through your rings and contaminated it.