Interior lights driving me nuts
01-04-2015, 11:45 PM
#17
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+1
Having benefited more than once from Alan's expertise and generosity (so many incredible posts), I respectfully submit this fine, electronic tune:
Wrangler
I would rather suggest the theme from Emmy nominated (it actually was) TV Western Wrangler but, I couldn't find it anywhere.
For those who don't know, the title character roamed the Frontier helping those in need.
Having benefited more than once from Alan's expertise and generosity (so many incredible posts), I respectfully submit this fine, electronic tune:
Wrangler
I would rather suggest the theme from Emmy nominated (it actually was) TV Western Wrangler but, I couldn't find it anywhere.
For those who don't know, the title character roamed the Frontier helping those in need.
01-05-2015, 10:43 AM
#18
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OK given the latest update it sounds like the hatch pin switch is always connecting to ground. Should only connect when the hatch is open.
At the hatch receiver - find the brown/white wire at the bottom behind the tool panel and center support and pull it off the connector to the hatch switch (this switch is built into the bottom of the receiver itself).
The lights should then work OK - except from the hatch triggering. You will need to R&R that switch to fix it - once you get a look at it you can see how it works (use a mirror/flashlight for a better look) - its all open air on view.
Alan
At the hatch receiver - find the brown/white wire at the bottom behind the tool panel and center support and pull it off the connector to the hatch switch (this switch is built into the bottom of the receiver itself).
The lights should then work OK - except from the hatch triggering. You will need to R&R that switch to fix it - once you get a look at it you can see how it works (use a mirror/flashlight for a better look) - its all open air on view.
Alan
01-17-2015, 06:55 PM
#19
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Finally figured it out. The connector that connects the hatch switch has a wire coming off of it that supplies a ground for the trunk release motor. Evidently my hatch release motor has issues. After disconnecting the hatch release, my problem goes away. Now looking for a hatch release motor.
04-11-2015, 02:12 PM
#20
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Interior Light Problems - Very Frustrating
First I have searched and read just about every post over the past 5 years about this problem. I have systematically tried the recommended solutions, yet the problem
continues. Since my symptoms are identical as Andy's I thought by following these latest recommendations I would be able to finally fix this issue. It didn't
So, let me start by laying out how the problem manifested itself and what has been done to date. The car is an '87 S4 and the problem cropped up about a year ago. (I drive
the car strictly for pleasure these days and very rarely - if ever - at night. So the interior lighht issue has been no big deal, but now I want to fix it.)
The Problem: My interior lights (LEDs) will initially go out, but after approximately an hour - the LEDs will come back on glowing dimly - not full on. This all started about a year
ago. I parked the car in the garage and saw the lights go put as usual. Went back out to the garage about two hours later and all of the interior lights were on. I re-shut the
drivers door and the hatch and the lights went out. A couple of days later - the same scenario. Then a couple more days and it happened again. The third time it happened
lead me to look deeper.
The Particulars:
1. All light fixtures - except door card fixtures - have been replaced with new fixtures from 928 Intl. This includes the red door edge fixtures with new spade connectors.
2. Door pin switches are new (I have a new hatch switch, but the current one works/tests OK (electrically and mechanically)
3. All light frames wired per Alan's guidelines
4. All lights come on in the "Always On" position and in the "Switched On" position
5. All lights stay off in the "Always Off" position
6. All lights are LEDs
7. Interior Light Delay Relay "clicks" after 30 seconds - lights will either go out completely or dim (more on that later)
8. The doors and the rear hatch are functioning properly mechanically
9. Hatch release works correctly from either side - sometimes you have to make a second pull on the button to get the motor to cycle again so it will lock. I believe this is just a
mechanical adjustment at the hatch/receiver.
10. When the hatch is opened the door lights do go on and they go off immediately when the hatch is closed - no delay.
11. ALL GROUNDS GET INSPECTED/CLEANED ANNUALLY - just thought I'd throw that in
Testing / Test Results:
1. All lights fixtures except the door card fixtures have been removed to simplify testing - eliminates frame grounds.
2. All wiring has been visually inspected for possible shorts/grounds caused by missing insulation, touching the car frame, etc.
3. Although the hatch release mechanism works fine, for testing purposes the hatch release motor has been disconnected as well as the hatch release pin switch
4. Readings were taken with a DVM connected to a) the center map light leads and b) the rear hatch light leads.
Electrical Findings: (Voltage measurements taken from center map light connections)
Voltage measurements across RED / Brown+White; lights are in "Switched On" position
1. Door Open 12.26VDC
2. Door Closed 12.24VDC
3. Delay relay click 3.92VDC (After 30 second delay)
Voltage measurements across Red / Brown; lights in "Switched On" position
1. Door Open 12.32VDC
2. Door Closed 12.32VDC
3. Delay relay Click 12.34VDC
Voltage measurements across Brown / Brown + White; lights in "Switched On" position
1. Door Open 0.02VDC
2. Door Closed 0.04VDC
3. Delay relay click 8.40VDC
Visual Observations:
1. The lights will go out, but after an hour or two they are back on glowing dimly.
2. Door lights come on immediately and go out immediately when the rear hatch is opened - there is no delay.
3. Door lights go out immediately when key is turned to the first position
Any suggestions...... (as a follow-on note, this morning my lights shut off at 11:37am - as they should have - but were glowing dimly at 12:54pm)
Thanks,
Jerome
First I have searched and read just about every post over the past 5 years about this problem. I have systematically tried the recommended solutions, yet the problem
continues. Since my symptoms are identical as Andy's I thought by following these latest recommendations I would be able to finally fix this issue. It didn't
So, let me start by laying out how the problem manifested itself and what has been done to date. The car is an '87 S4 and the problem cropped up about a year ago. (I drive
the car strictly for pleasure these days and very rarely - if ever - at night. So the interior lighht issue has been no big deal, but now I want to fix it.)
The Problem: My interior lights (LEDs) will initially go out, but after approximately an hour - the LEDs will come back on glowing dimly - not full on. This all started about a year
ago. I parked the car in the garage and saw the lights go put as usual. Went back out to the garage about two hours later and all of the interior lights were on. I re-shut the
drivers door and the hatch and the lights went out. A couple of days later - the same scenario. Then a couple more days and it happened again. The third time it happened
lead me to look deeper.
The Particulars:
1. All light fixtures - except door card fixtures - have been replaced with new fixtures from 928 Intl. This includes the red door edge fixtures with new spade connectors.
2. Door pin switches are new (I have a new hatch switch, but the current one works/tests OK (electrically and mechanically)
3. All light frames wired per Alan's guidelines
4. All lights come on in the "Always On" position and in the "Switched On" position
5. All lights stay off in the "Always Off" position
6. All lights are LEDs
7. Interior Light Delay Relay "clicks" after 30 seconds - lights will either go out completely or dim (more on that later)
8. The doors and the rear hatch are functioning properly mechanically
9. Hatch release works correctly from either side - sometimes you have to make a second pull on the button to get the motor to cycle again so it will lock. I believe this is just a
mechanical adjustment at the hatch/receiver.
10. When the hatch is opened the door lights do go on and they go off immediately when the hatch is closed - no delay.
11. ALL GROUNDS GET INSPECTED/CLEANED ANNUALLY - just thought I'd throw that in
Testing / Test Results:
1. All lights fixtures except the door card fixtures have been removed to simplify testing - eliminates frame grounds.
2. All wiring has been visually inspected for possible shorts/grounds caused by missing insulation, touching the car frame, etc.
3. Although the hatch release mechanism works fine, for testing purposes the hatch release motor has been disconnected as well as the hatch release pin switch
4. Readings were taken with a DVM connected to a) the center map light leads and b) the rear hatch light leads.
Electrical Findings: (Voltage measurements taken from center map light connections)
Voltage measurements across RED / Brown+White; lights are in "Switched On" position
1. Door Open 12.26VDC
2. Door Closed 12.24VDC
3. Delay relay click 3.92VDC (After 30 second delay)
Voltage measurements across Red / Brown; lights in "Switched On" position
1. Door Open 12.32VDC
2. Door Closed 12.32VDC
3. Delay relay Click 12.34VDC
Voltage measurements across Brown / Brown + White; lights in "Switched On" position
1. Door Open 0.02VDC
2. Door Closed 0.04VDC
3. Delay relay click 8.40VDC
Visual Observations:
1. The lights will go out, but after an hour or two they are back on glowing dimly.
2. Door lights come on immediately and go out immediately when the rear hatch is opened - there is no delay.
3. Door lights go out immediately when key is turned to the first position
Any suggestions...... (as a follow-on note, this morning my lights shut off at 11:37am - as they should have - but were glowing dimly at 12:54pm)
Thanks,
Jerome
04-11-2015, 07:05 PM
#21
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Jerome - try removing the relay - after a while do the lights still come on in dim mode?
Good way to rule out the relay...
Similarly (but separately) try unplugging the rear hatch release motor and do the same test.
Alan
Good way to rule out the relay...
Similarly (but separately) try unplugging the rear hatch release motor and do the same test.
Alan
04-12-2015, 05:36 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Alan,
Here's today's results with the delay relay removed and the hatch release motor and pin switch disconnected:
Switch On Mode:
1. Voltage to LED with door open 9.03VDC LED is on but dim
2. Voltage to LED with door closed 9.03VDC LED is on but dim
Always On Mode:
1. Voltage to LED with door open 12.03VDC LED is on bright
2. Voltage to LED with door closed 11.93VDC LED is on bright
Always Off Mode:
1. Voltage to LED with door open/closed 0.0VDC LED is off
Other
1. With doors closed, turn the ignition key to the first position and the voltage to the LED drops to 4.17VDC LED is off
2. After an hour or so the voltage to the LED is back at 9.03VDC and the LED is on but dim
Jerome
Here's today's results with the delay relay removed and the hatch release motor and pin switch disconnected:
Switch On Mode:
1. Voltage to LED with door open 9.03VDC LED is on but dim
2. Voltage to LED with door closed 9.03VDC LED is on but dim
Always On Mode:
1. Voltage to LED with door open 12.03VDC LED is on bright
2. Voltage to LED with door closed 11.93VDC LED is on bright
Always Off Mode:
1. Voltage to LED with door open/closed 0.0VDC LED is off
Other
1. With doors closed, turn the ignition key to the first position and the voltage to the LED drops to 4.17VDC LED is off
2. After an hour or so the voltage to the LED is back at 9.03VDC and the LED is on but dim
Jerome
04-12-2015, 09:07 PM
#24
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Something is completing the circuit from the brown/white wire to ground - with the hatch motor/pin switch and relay removed there shouldn't be anything left...
The voltage on the bulb will always be battery voltage on one side (red) - the other side should be dependant on the switch: 0v when switched to permanently on, floating (up to battery voltage) when permanently off and varying between 0v (for on) and floating up to battery voltage (when off) in the door switched mode.
When you measure the differential across the LED bulb you will measure 0v when both sides are at battery voltage, and ~12v when one is at battery voltage and the other is at ground (0v), Measuring 9v almost certainly means the ground side was @ ~3v.
I'd suspect most likely one of your fixtures has the connections swapped where the LED bulb is between the Brown & Brown/White (or white wire in the hatch) wires and the red wire (or green wire in hatch) goes to the switch... Check.
Otherwise - Do you have anything else connected to the interior lights? EL door strips? anything like that?
BTW - the level of detail Jerome gave in this post was excellent for diagnosing the issue - if only everyone could be so concise and methodical - thanks
Alan
The voltage on the bulb will always be battery voltage on one side (red) - the other side should be dependant on the switch: 0v when switched to permanently on, floating (up to battery voltage) when permanently off and varying between 0v (for on) and floating up to battery voltage (when off) in the door switched mode.
When you measure the differential across the LED bulb you will measure 0v when both sides are at battery voltage, and ~12v when one is at battery voltage and the other is at ground (0v), Measuring 9v almost certainly means the ground side was @ ~3v.
I'd suspect most likely one of your fixtures has the connections swapped where the LED bulb is between the Brown & Brown/White (or white wire in the hatch) wires and the red wire (or green wire in hatch) goes to the switch... Check.
Otherwise - Do you have anything else connected to the interior lights? EL door strips? anything like that?
BTW - the level of detail Jerome gave in this post was excellent for diagnosing the issue - if only everyone could be so concise and methodical - thanks
Alan
04-23-2015, 01:57 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Alan,
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, but my attention was diverted into getting the car ready for the state safety inspection - it passed as always.
Thanks for the compliment...it comes from decades of managing technical projects.
Actually the only fixtures connected are the door fixtures because there isn't any chance of grounding against metal.
Not at this time. I was planning on installing the sill lighting kit I got some time ago from Paul Champagne - but I've got to solve this problem first. The PO had installed one of those infamous Ungo boxes but subsequently had it removed after the car had to be towed to the dealership on multiple occasions because of a dead battery. Over the past 10 years I have been removing components and wiring associated with that fiasco.
I suspect there's something left that I just haven't found, or something is going on with the CE panel. I intend to do a more detailed visual inspection of all the associated wiring and to closely inspect the rear of the CE panel. I'll let you know what I find.
Thanks for your advice and guidance,
Jerome
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, but my attention was diverted into getting the car ready for the state safety inspection - it passed as always.
BTW - the level of detail Jerome gave in this post was excellent for diagnosing the issue - if only everyone could be so concise and methodical - thanks
I'd suspect most likely one of your fixtures has the connections swapped where the LED bulb is between the Brown & Brown/White (or white wire in the hatch) wires and the red wire (or green wire in hatch) goes to the switch... Check.
Otherwise - Do you have anything else connected to the interior lights? EL door strips? anything like that?
I suspect there's something left that I just haven't found, or something is going on with the CE panel. I intend to do a more detailed visual inspection of all the associated wiring and to closely inspect the rear of the CE panel. I'll let you know what I find.
Thanks for your advice and guidance,
Jerome