Future project 928 GT
12-21-2014, 04:28 PM
#17
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What everybody else said.
If you're going to throw away the drivetrain there is NO point whatsoever in starting with a GT as it is the GT-specific engine and transaxle that set them apart (mostly). Get an '87 (non-squirter block) or '88 and have at it.
You might as well get a pre-S4 if you're going to throw away the S4 motor.
Now, if you find one - any 928 - as a non-runner then have at it.
If you're going to throw away the drivetrain there is NO point whatsoever in starting with a GT as it is the GT-specific engine and transaxle that set them apart (mostly). Get an '87 (non-squirter block) or '88 and have at it.
You might as well get a pre-S4 if you're going to throw away the S4 motor.
Now, if you find one - any 928 - as a non-runner then have at it.
I definitely want more that 300ish horsepower in that weight. I am exploring supercharging and turbo options, but most are clocking in at $10k+ which is terrible bang for buck.
If money was no object, I'd just hunt down the best GTS I could find.
I want to keep my purchase under $40k with whatever I put into it.
12-21-2014, 05:15 PM
#18
Nordschleife Master
Well, first off, it's your car, do to it what you want. Or at least it will be.
Finding a GT or GTS with a bad motor for cheap isn't all that likely to happen. They are rare enough & worth enough that any motor issues are often worth repairing.
Swapping in a Chev motor is a huge project. You mention a reluctance to swap a manual in because of the precision needed for the clutch master.
You'd need that, multiplied by a lot (maybe an order of magnitude) to do a "Frankenstein" motor swap. The level of skill needed for all the fabrication and customization is not small.
Tony and Dinsdale put a Vette motor& trans into one recently. Look for the "Just Peachy" thread. It's a huge (and hugely expensive) project. I'd be skeptical that you could pull it off for $40k.
Carl at 928 Motorsports recently had a thread about putting a Vette 6 speed into an auto 928. IIRC, the full kit ran around $12k.
If you want my opinion (and even if you don't
) get an S4, get it into really good condition and put a blower in it. Victor kits are really nice, Murf are too. 928 Motorsports are a third option.
I've personally seen 2 Victor kits, and met and talked to Victor. Jeff Spahn has one in his black 88 and Rob (forget last name) has one in his red one (forget year). Centrifugal blower, AFM & boost gauges that hide in the ashtray, great support from Victor himself. This was at the "Sharks on the Mississippi" event last year.
Finding a GT or GTS with a bad motor for cheap isn't all that likely to happen. They are rare enough & worth enough that any motor issues are often worth repairing.
Swapping in a Chev motor is a huge project. You mention a reluctance to swap a manual in because of the precision needed for the clutch master.
You'd need that, multiplied by a lot (maybe an order of magnitude) to do a "Frankenstein" motor swap. The level of skill needed for all the fabrication and customization is not small.
Tony and Dinsdale put a Vette motor& trans into one recently. Look for the "Just Peachy" thread. It's a huge (and hugely expensive) project. I'd be skeptical that you could pull it off for $40k.
Carl at 928 Motorsports recently had a thread about putting a Vette 6 speed into an auto 928. IIRC, the full kit ran around $12k.
If you want my opinion (and even if you don't
) get an S4, get it into really good condition and put a blower in it. Victor kits are really nice, Murf are too. 928 Motorsports are a third option.I've personally seen 2 Victor kits, and met and talked to Victor. Jeff Spahn has one in his black 88 and Rob (forget last name) has one in his red one (forget year). Centrifugal blower, AFM & boost gauges that hide in the ashtray, great support from Victor himself. This was at the "Sharks on the Mississippi" event last year.
12-21-2014, 05:43 PM
#19
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Well, first off, it's your car, do to it what you want. Or at least it will be.
Finding a GT or GTS with a bad motor for cheap isn't all that likely to happen. They are rare enough & worth enough that any motor issues are often worth repairing.
Swapping in a Chev motor is a huge project. You mention a reluctance to swap a manual in because of the precision needed for the clutch master.
You'd need that, multiplied by a lot (maybe an order of magnitude) to do a "Frankenstein" motor swap. The level of skill needed for all the fabrication and customization is not small.
Tony and Dinsdale put a Vette motor& trans into one recently. Look for the "Just Peachy" thread. It's a huge (and hugely expensive) project. I'd be skeptical that you could pull it off for $40k.
Carl at 928 Motorsports recently had a thread about putting a Vette 6 speed into an auto 928. IIRC, the full kit ran around $12k.
If you want my opinion (and even if you don't) get an S4, get it into really good condition and put a blower in it. Victor kits are really nice, Murf are too. 928 Motorsports are a third option.
I've personally seen 2 Victor kits, and met and talked to Victor. Jeff Spahn has one in his black 88 and Rob (forget last name) has one in his red one (forget year). Centrifugal blower, AFM & boost gauges that hide in the ashtray, great support from Victor himself. This was at the "Sharks on the Mississippi" event last year.
Finding a GT or GTS with a bad motor for cheap isn't all that likely to happen. They are rare enough & worth enough that any motor issues are often worth repairing.
Swapping in a Chev motor is a huge project. You mention a reluctance to swap a manual in because of the precision needed for the clutch master.
You'd need that, multiplied by a lot (maybe an order of magnitude) to do a "Frankenstein" motor swap. The level of skill needed for all the fabrication and customization is not small.
Tony and Dinsdale put a Vette motor& trans into one recently. Look for the "Just Peachy" thread. It's a huge (and hugely expensive) project. I'd be skeptical that you could pull it off for $40k.
Carl at 928 Motorsports recently had a thread about putting a Vette 6 speed into an auto 928. IIRC, the full kit ran around $12k.
If you want my opinion (and even if you don't
) get an S4, get it into really good condition and put a blower in it. Victor kits are really nice, Murf are too. 928 Motorsports are a third option.I've personally seen 2 Victor kits, and met and talked to Victor. Jeff Spahn has one in his black 88 and Rob (forget last name) has one in his red one (forget year). Centrifugal blower, AFM & boost gauges that hide in the ashtray, great support from Victor himself. This was at the "Sharks on the Mississippi" event last year.
I'd use one of the various kits to install the engine/trans.
I will look into to the other kits for s/c options, this is a bit out (12-24 months); but I definitely want to start the planning early.
12-21-2014, 07:47 PM
#20
Nordschleife Master
Which kits are you looking at?
The Renegade is the only one I can find. Its for small blocks.
There's a place out in NJ (maybe?) that has a lot of advertising, but very little product. Beware of him. The name escapes me at the moment.
The Renegade is the only one I can find. Its for small blocks.
There's a place out in NJ (maybe?) that has a lot of advertising, but very little product. Beware of him. The name escapes me at the moment.
12-21-2014, 10:32 PM
#21
You will not be able to afford what you are proposing here. If you really want to do an LS engine swap, then why do it on the most expensive 928 you can possibly do it on. You really want the body styling and the suspension. I know a few people who have done LS swaps, but they have done it for tracking purpose. Converting an automatic to a manual is not a trivial thing to do on these cars.
My advice, is get into the body as cheaply as you possibly can. You can do your styling mods later for a fraction of the price.
I find the 928 a good car to work on, and keeping it stock is really a very viable option, The drive train is pretty solid. Just watch out for the stuff that is known to fail, do the PMs, and don;t buy crap. Unless you want to gut it.
Good luck, and I do encourage you to think hard about spending the premium on a GT
My advice, is get into the body as cheaply as you possibly can. You can do your styling mods later for a fraction of the price.
I find the 928 a good car to work on, and keeping it stock is really a very viable option, The drive train is pretty solid. Just watch out for the stuff that is known to fail, do the PMs, and don;t buy crap. Unless you want to gut it.
Good luck, and I do encourage you to think hard about spending the premium on a GT
12-21-2014, 10:35 PM
#22
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I didn't realize some of the s/c kits are in the $5-6k range. More realistic but they don't look as nice as the better kits. I could live with that.
I am hoping being in S. Florida I stumble across a dead or forgotten one in someone's garage. When I was searching for 952's many were down here with minor mileage on them, the owner's just wanted brain damage money for them ($20-25k+ in 2001) and quite a few needed work on the interiors due to not being garaged/tinted.
12-21-2014, 10:47 PM
#23
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You will not be able to afford what you are proposing here. If you really want to do an LS engine swap, then why do it on the most expensive 928 you can possibly do it on. You really want the body styling and the suspension. I know a few people who have done LS swaps, but they have done it for tracking purpose. Converting an automatic to a manual is not a trivial thing to do on these cars.
My advice, is get into the body as cheaply as you possibly can. You can do your styling mods later for a fraction of the price.
I find the 928 a good car to work on, and keeping it stock is really a very viable option, The drive train is pretty solid. Just watch out for the stuff that is known to fail, do the PMs, and don;t buy crap. Unless you want to gut it.
Good luck, and I do encourage you to think hard about spending the premium on a GT
My advice, is get into the body as cheaply as you possibly can. You can do your styling mods later for a fraction of the price.
I find the 928 a good car to work on, and keeping it stock is really a very viable option, The drive train is pretty solid. Just watch out for the stuff that is known to fail, do the PMs, and don;t buy crap. Unless you want to gut it.
Good luck, and I do encourage you to think hard about spending the premium on a GT
I picked up a very low mileage 2006 M3 ZCP with just 25k on the clock a couple years ago for a premium ($37k + $5k for a full powertrain warranty until about 87k miles).
I put another $7500 in upgrades into it over a year and my gas / preventative maintenance / oil changes ran me close to $10k in that year as I was driving 2000 miles a month.
I love cars. I have a good budget for what I want. I don't want to be more than $40k into the car itself though plus whatever it takes to get it reconditioned and up to about 400-500RWHP and not be a basket case.
12-22-2014, 05:45 AM
#24
Nordschleife Master
Or you could go with a floor-mounted clutch. Lizard928 posted about a floor-mounted wilwood clutch on his '87 years ago and probably has lots of miles on it by now.
12-22-2014, 08:16 AM
#25
Hilton, I just noticed your location font. That is awesome. Took me just a second or two to figure it out. It caught the corner of my vision, and I was thinking what kind of alphabet is that....
12-22-2014, 12:15 PM
#26
You said you don't want to pay a premium, but you want to start with a GT or GTS? You will pay a huge premium for a GTS then devalue it completely by modifying it for an LS motor and 6-speed, just to get the flared fenders. Similar with a GT. You'll pay much more for a GT than a 5-speed S4 then remove the engine and trans that make the GT special. Visually there is no difference between the GT and S4 except wheels and exhaust. I expect you'll change both. The only thing mechanical the GT has that not all S4s have (after removing the drivetrain) is the sport suspension. It sounds like you'll likely replace the stock shocks anyway and you'll likely want different spring rates because the LS motor and 6-speed don't weigh the same amount as the factory parts.
For a swap project like you plan I would start with a 5-speed S4. Cosmetically it is identical to the GT on the outside and the interior differences are minor, mostly because airbags were introduced in 90 when the S4s were all auto and the manlual was the GT. A manual S4 will be an 87-89 that won't have airbags. If you need airbags you'll need to start with a 90-91 GT or convert the same years S4 Auto to manual. Excellent S4 5-speeds can be found for $15k or less. If you find one with a bad motor or trans you might get a better deal, but finding a well cared for car that the owner doesn't want to pay to fix will be rare. I would buy a good running/driving car then sell the engine and trans. They are worth quite a bit. Perhaps more than 1/2 the value of a good running car. They would be easy to sell for top $$$ if you market them while still in the car and the buyer can sample them running before you pull them out.
It would make zero sense to pay the huge premium for a GTS just for the fenders or to pay a somewhat smaller premium to bastardize an extremely rare GT and not keep any of the GT equipment. There were only about 500 GTs produced worldwide 89-91. 5-speed S4s are somewhat rare and more expensive than auto S4s, but they don't fetch nearly the premium that a GT or 5-speed GTS commands.
For a swap project like you plan I would start with a 5-speed S4. Cosmetically it is identical to the GT on the outside and the interior differences are minor, mostly because airbags were introduced in 90 when the S4s were all auto and the manlual was the GT. A manual S4 will be an 87-89 that won't have airbags. If you need airbags you'll need to start with a 90-91 GT or convert the same years S4 Auto to manual. Excellent S4 5-speeds can be found for $15k or less. If you find one with a bad motor or trans you might get a better deal, but finding a well cared for car that the owner doesn't want to pay to fix will be rare. I would buy a good running/driving car then sell the engine and trans. They are worth quite a bit. Perhaps more than 1/2 the value of a good running car. They would be easy to sell for top $$$ if you market them while still in the car and the buyer can sample them running before you pull them out.
It would make zero sense to pay the huge premium for a GTS just for the fenders or to pay a somewhat smaller premium to bastardize an extremely rare GT and not keep any of the GT equipment. There were only about 500 GTs produced worldwide 89-91. 5-speed S4s are somewhat rare and more expensive than auto S4s, but they don't fetch nearly the premium that a GT or 5-speed GTS commands.
12-22-2014, 02:07 PM
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You said you don't want to pay a premium, but you want to start with a GT or GTS? You will pay a huge premium for a GTS then devalue it completely by modifying it for an LS motor and 6-speed, just to get the flared fenders. Similar with a GT. You'll pay much more for a GT than a 5-speed S4 then remove the engine and trans that make the GT special. Visually there is no difference between the GT and S4 except wheels and exhaust. I expect you'll change both. The only thing mechanical the GT has that not all S4s have (after removing the drivetrain) is the sport suspension. It sounds like you'll likely replace the stock shocks anyway and you'll likely want different spring rates because the LS motor and 6-speed don't weigh the same amount as the factory parts.
For a swap project like you plan I would start with a 5-speed S4. Cosmetically it is identical to the GT on the outside and the interior differences are minor, mostly because airbags were introduced in 90 when the S4s were all auto and the manlual was the GT. A manual S4 will be an 87-89 that won't have airbags. If you need airbags you'll need to start with a 90-91 GT or convert the same years S4 Auto to manual. Excellent S4 5-speeds can be found for $15k or less. If you find one with a bad motor or trans you might get a better deal, but finding a well cared for car that the owner doesn't want to pay to fix will be rare. I would buy a good running/driving car then sell the engine and trans. They are worth quite a bit. Perhaps more than 1/2 the value of a good running car. They would be easy to sell for top $$$ if you market them while still in the car and the buyer can sample them running before you pull them out.
It would make zero sense to pay the huge premium for a GTS just for the fenders or to pay a somewhat smaller premium to bastardize an extremely rare GT and not keep any of the GT equipment. There were only about 500 GTs produced worldwide 89-91. 5-speed S4s are somewhat rare and more expensive than auto S4s, but they don't fetch nearly the premium that a GT or 5-speed GTS commands.
For a swap project like you plan I would start with a 5-speed S4. Cosmetically it is identical to the GT on the outside and the interior differences are minor, mostly because airbags were introduced in 90 when the S4s were all auto and the manlual was the GT. A manual S4 will be an 87-89 that won't have airbags. If you need airbags you'll need to start with a 90-91 GT or convert the same years S4 Auto to manual. Excellent S4 5-speeds can be found for $15k or less. If you find one with a bad motor or trans you might get a better deal, but finding a well cared for car that the owner doesn't want to pay to fix will be rare. I would buy a good running/driving car then sell the engine and trans. They are worth quite a bit. Perhaps more than 1/2 the value of a good running car. They would be easy to sell for top $$$ if you market them while still in the car and the buyer can sample them running before you pull them out.
It would make zero sense to pay the huge premium for a GTS just for the fenders or to pay a somewhat smaller premium to bastardize an extremely rare GT and not keep any of the GT equipment. There were only about 500 GTs produced worldwide 89-91. 5-speed S4s are somewhat rare and more expensive than auto S4s, but they don't fetch nearly the premium that a GT or 5-speed GTS commands.
12-22-2014, 06:12 PM
#28
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12-22-2014, 07:03 PM
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add KuhnMotorsports twin turbos and profit! 
That setup is absolutely beautiful.
I have 3 kids (inherited
) and my own baby girl on the way. Car fund has to give a bit.I was set to have my 2006 M3 turbocharged prior to selling it. I am still on the fence a little of going back to an M3 in
I really want the digital dash and some of the last tidbits added. I haven't looked into what adding the digital dash would entail on an earlier model or if their are more modern/nicer options.
This is going to be a work in progress as I have known some of these projects to become dead ends due to a buyer getting into extreme costs not anticipated.
12-22-2014, 07:49 PM
#30
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400+ RWHP, digital dash, airbags, manual transmission, PSD, for $40K.
1. What cosmetic condition does it have to be in?
2. How handy are you?
The reason I ask is that the cheapest way to get 400 rwhp in a 928 is a Stage III Murf kit, which is ~$8 or $9K. Figure another $1500 for a sharktuner and a WBO2.
Any 90-95 GT or GTS 5-speed that is going to fit the budget will need an automatic $5K in parts if you're going to add a power adder and not have to worry about reliability. So you're at $15.5K minimum, before you've bought a car.
So the question is, can you find a cosmetically nice '90 or '91 GT in the $24K range? Absolutely. But you'd better hurry, nice ones will all eclipse $24K in the next 2 years.
All of this assumes you are providing 100% labor, and your time is worth zero.
1. What cosmetic condition does it have to be in?
2. How handy are you?
The reason I ask is that the cheapest way to get 400 rwhp in a 928 is a Stage III Murf kit, which is ~$8 or $9K. Figure another $1500 for a sharktuner and a WBO2.
Any 90-95 GT or GTS 5-speed that is going to fit the budget will need an automatic $5K in parts if you're going to add a power adder and not have to worry about reliability. So you're at $15.5K minimum, before you've bought a car.
So the question is, can you find a cosmetically nice '90 or '91 GT in the $24K range? Absolutely. But you'd better hurry, nice ones will all eclipse $24K in the next 2 years.
All of this assumes you are providing 100% labor, and your time is worth zero.