More S4 fan weirdness
08-13-2014, 12:17 PM
#16
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Did think about that locale for it is the highest velocity air flow area - it is also the highest moisture/road 'grime' area as well.
I am going to put it where the old final stage was. Some holes will be drilled to allow air from under - the fins will be up top.
Will keep you all posted.
I am going to put it where the old final stage was. Some holes will be drilled to allow air from under - the fins will be up top.
Will keep you all posted.
Given the multiple triggers used in the factory setup:
AC on, intake temperature, radiator temperature, refrigerant pressure
How will you interface this controller to those monitors/sensors? reading the details posted online there are provisions for additional sensor inputs but its a bit fuzzy on how to configure these.
Alan
08-13-2014, 12:53 PM
#17
Drifting
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Craig can add what he learned from talking to Brian at DC Controls. I've communicated with Brian by email. It is a single controller, but the FK-95 handles surprisingly high current (260 amps...there are lower current models). In fact, Brian thought the FK-95 was overkill in terms of it being able to handle running both fans. Standard wiring is 10 gauge, but one can opt of 8 gauge. They sell a dual fan harness, wired in parallel. I think the idea is that the system will provided more than enough cooling due to the fans being on all the time after the coolant in the lower portion of the radiator reaches 180 degrees. There is an AC on trigger input. The instructions suggest attaching one of the former fan connectors to the AC input on the DC controller because either will see full power when the AC switch is pressed.
I asked Brian if a relay would be necessary between the AC switch and the DC fan controller and he responded: "The AC input is high impedance, so you don't need much current to drive it (< 1 mA) I would only use a relay if you need to reverse the polarity of the signal."
RE intake temp sensor: The DC system always runs the fans for a period of time after shut down (whether needed or not...the length of time can be varied by the user, I think).
RE radiator temperature: This is the only sensor the DC system has. The instructions describe best locations for it (turns out to be the same location Porsche selected).
So, there's no AC pressure sensor and no ATF temp sensor. My car has both the ATF cooling circuit in the radiator and the additional cooler in front of the radiator - as if the car is set up for towing duty. Given how I use the car I'm very certain the DC system would be just fine. Not sure about the AC pressure sensor, but I don't use the AC often and I don't live in Death Valley. Might be more of a concern in Phoenix. Craig lives in Maine (Edit: I'll let Craig speak to his level of concern about the AC issue).
I asked Brian if a relay would be necessary between the AC switch and the DC fan controller and he responded: "The AC input is high impedance, so you don't need much current to drive it (< 1 mA) I would only use a relay if you need to reverse the polarity of the signal."
RE intake temp sensor: The DC system always runs the fans for a period of time after shut down (whether needed or not...the length of time can be varied by the user, I think).
RE radiator temperature: This is the only sensor the DC system has. The instructions describe best locations for it (turns out to be the same location Porsche selected).
So, there's no AC pressure sensor and no ATF temp sensor. My car has both the ATF cooling circuit in the radiator and the additional cooler in front of the radiator - as if the car is set up for towing duty. Given how I use the car I'm very certain the DC system would be just fine. Not sure about the AC pressure sensor, but I don't use the AC often and I don't live in Death Valley. Might be more of a concern in Phoenix. Craig lives in Maine (Edit: I'll let Craig speak to his level of concern about the AC issue).
08-13-2014, 01:35 PM
#18
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Well the remaining issue with running both fans from a single controller isn't the current - seems it has adequate - it's the loss of redundancy. If one fan shorts and blows the fuse (or causes the controller to suspend due to a short detection) then both fans are off.
The refrigerant temp pressure sensor kicks up the fan speed to high when the AC is hitting high pressures - this is pretty independant from the radiator temp, more important for R134a systems, not sure how programmable the fan rate is for the AC mode on - but that might help take care of it. I would include the torque converter temp switch in the triggering though - you could combine AC, intake temp and TC in one switched input - but you'd need a relay and 2 diodes.
Alan
The refrigerant temp pressure sensor kicks up the fan speed to high when the AC is hitting high pressures - this is pretty independant from the radiator temp, more important for R134a systems, not sure how programmable the fan rate is for the AC mode on - but that might help take care of it. I would include the torque converter temp switch in the triggering though - you could combine AC, intake temp and TC in one switched input - but you'd need a relay and 2 diodes.
Alan
08-13-2014, 03:50 PM
#19
Nordschleife Master
Craig can add what he learned from talking to Brian at DC Controls. I've communicated with Brian by email. It is a single controller, but the FK-95 handles surprisingly high current (260 amps...there are lower current models). In fact, Brian thought the FK-95 was overkill in terms of it being able to handle running both fans. Standard wiring is 10 gauge, but one can opt of 8 gauge. They sell a dual fan harness, wired in parallel. I think the idea is that the system will provided more than enough cooling due to the fans being on all the time after the coolant in the lower portion of the radiator reaches 180 degrees. There is an AC on trigger input. The instructions suggest attaching one of the former fan connectors to the AC input on the DC controller because either will see full power when the AC switch is pressed.
When I spoke with Brian Baskin at DC he states the 95 unit can easily handle two fans at 30 amp each. States he has them on cars running 2 at 36 amps each without issue. Running them in parallel is not an issue and does provide some redundancy in case one fan fails.
I asked Brian if a relay would be necessary between the AC switch and the DC fan controller and he responded: "The AC input is high impedance, so you don't need much current to drive it (< 1 mA) I would only use a relay if you need to reverse the polarity of the signal."
RE intake temp sensor: The DC system always runs the fans for a period of time after shut down (whether needed or not...the length of time can be varied by the user, I think).
Yes, will run like the original off the radiator sensor. This sensor is adjustable to respond from 160 to 210 deg. Set at 180 initially. Verification of your setting of the activation temp is done by measuring voltage off pin 13 according to an enclosed table of values.
RE radiator temperature: This is the only sensor the DC system has. The instructions describe best locations for it (turns out to be the same location Porsche selected).
So, there's no AC pressure sensor and no ATF temp sensor. My car has both the ATF cooling circuit in the radiator and the additional cooler in front of the radiator - as if the car is set up for towing duty. Given how I use the car I'm very certain the DC system would be just fine. Not sure about the AC pressure sensor, but I don't use the AC often and I don't live in Death Valley. Might be more of a concern in Phoenix. Craig lives in Maine (Edit: I'll let Craig speak to his level of concern about the AC issue).
Agree with above. I drive the car like the GT class of driving it was meant for. If cared for with quality, I wouldn't imagine an ATF temp or intake temp being exclusively elevated above the overall running temp of the car. The fan cooling will keep this in check as it always has. No towing here. No spinning my wheels in sand dunes either.
The AC input activation sets the fans at 50%. If radiator temp requires more, it is ticked up to what the radiator temp calls for. The 50% fan AC activation is through pin 14 on the 3 pin (12 - 14) connector. Pin 13 is for measuring the voltage for radiator temp activation setting. If you add pin 12 you will get 100% fan speed upon AC switch activation.
In speaking with Brian one can see he is incredibly knowledgable about industrial electronics, auto fan control and the production of his units. He states from his experience it is the bipolar switch that has a lower temp threshold that causes failure of controller units - states the FET's have a higher temp threshold before damaging board components. He says on most older units these are not isolated on the boards - on his units they are. He states his components are designed to the industry standard of 155C (that's 310F) for electrical components. He then said my ideas for extra ventilation would not be necessary.
When I spoke with Brian Baskin at DC he states the 95 unit can easily handle two fans at 30 amp each. States he has them on cars running 2 at 36 amps each without issue. Running them in parallel is not an issue and does provide some redundancy in case one fan fails.
I asked Brian if a relay would be necessary between the AC switch and the DC fan controller and he responded: "The AC input is high impedance, so you don't need much current to drive it (< 1 mA) I would only use a relay if you need to reverse the polarity of the signal."
RE intake temp sensor: The DC system always runs the fans for a period of time after shut down (whether needed or not...the length of time can be varied by the user, I think).
Yes, will run like the original off the radiator sensor. This sensor is adjustable to respond from 160 to 210 deg. Set at 180 initially. Verification of your setting of the activation temp is done by measuring voltage off pin 13 according to an enclosed table of values.
RE radiator temperature: This is the only sensor the DC system has. The instructions describe best locations for it (turns out to be the same location Porsche selected).
So, there's no AC pressure sensor and no ATF temp sensor. My car has both the ATF cooling circuit in the radiator and the additional cooler in front of the radiator - as if the car is set up for towing duty. Given how I use the car I'm very certain the DC system would be just fine. Not sure about the AC pressure sensor, but I don't use the AC often and I don't live in Death Valley. Might be more of a concern in Phoenix. Craig lives in Maine (Edit: I'll let Craig speak to his level of concern about the AC issue).
Agree with above. I drive the car like the GT class of driving it was meant for. If cared for with quality, I wouldn't imagine an ATF temp or intake temp being exclusively elevated above the overall running temp of the car. The fan cooling will keep this in check as it always has. No towing here. No spinning my wheels in sand dunes either.
The AC input activation sets the fans at 50%. If radiator temp requires more, it is ticked up to what the radiator temp calls for. The 50% fan AC activation is through pin 14 on the 3 pin (12 - 14) connector. Pin 13 is for measuring the voltage for radiator temp activation setting. If you add pin 12 you will get 100% fan speed upon AC switch activation.
In speaking with Brian one can see he is incredibly knowledgable about industrial electronics, auto fan control and the production of his units. He states from his experience it is the bipolar switch that has a lower temp threshold that causes failure of controller units - states the FET's have a higher temp threshold before damaging board components. He says on most older units these are not isolated on the boards - on his units they are. He states his components are designed to the industry standard of 155C (that's 310F) for electrical components. He then said my ideas for extra ventilation would not be necessary.
Last edited by MainePorsche; 08-13-2014 at 06:33 PM.
08-13-2014, 06:38 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
08-13-2014, 06:47 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
08-13-2014, 07:37 PM
#23
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The rundundancy you lose is if fans go SC - agreed an OC fan will just stop running and the controller will then compensate on the other fan speed if the temperature then goes up.
30A inline fuses on each fan feeder after the controller would probably take care of this - pretty simple.
I think the TC temp input is still worth including - I think you can do it without much extra effort.
Interested to see how this works out.
Alan
30A inline fuses on each fan feeder after the controller would probably take care of this - pretty simple.
I think the TC temp input is still worth including - I think you can do it without much extra effort.
Interested to see how this works out.
Alan
08-13-2014, 09:48 PM
#24
Nordschleife Master
Interesting.
The 'generic' dc AC switch activates fans at 50% via pin 14. Optional set up is attaching pin 12 into the mix to get to 100%. Might combining TC, refrigerant sensor, intake sensor through pin 12 give additive protection to these systems by boosting to 100% when tripped ?
I don't know what kind of amperage would be needed to activate this 100% pin, but could call the fellow and find out.
Your thoughts ?
Stand to correct myself.
Pin 12 on the dc controller adds 10% on AC activation.
Pin 14 on the dc controller adds 50% on activation.
Brian Baskin at dc controllers says there are 2 more pages of instructions that have not been included as of now, but are under construction as an app-note.
He says there are several temp overrides that can be used.
The 'generic' dc AC switch activates fans at 50% via pin 14. Optional set up is attaching pin 12 into the mix to get to 100%. Might combining TC, refrigerant sensor, intake sensor through pin 12 give additive protection to these systems by boosting to 100% when tripped ?
I don't know what kind of amperage would be needed to activate this 100% pin, but could call the fellow and find out.
Your thoughts ?
Stand to correct myself.
Pin 12 on the dc controller adds 10% on AC activation.
Pin 14 on the dc controller adds 50% on activation.
Brian Baskin at dc controllers says there are 2 more pages of instructions that have not been included as of now, but are under construction as an app-note.
He says there are several temp overrides that can be used.
Last edited by MainePorsche; 08-15-2014 at 03:14 PM.
08-13-2014, 10:02 PM
#25
Drifting
Thread Starter
I'm not sure Brian is associated with the HVAC Delta Controls. He has a separate simple website for the controllers we are discussing. http://www.dccontrol.com/constant_te...ontrollers.htm
He sent me a link to his older website to provide a lot of technical information. It's WAY more information and technical than most customers would care to attempt to understand.
http://www.dccontrol.com/introf3.htm
He sent me a link to his older website to provide a lot of technical information. It's WAY more information and technical than most customers would care to attempt to understand.
http://www.dccontrol.com/introf3.htm
08-13-2014, 10:07 PM
#26
Nordschleife Master
I'm not sure Brian is associated with the HVAC Delta Controls. He has a separate simple website for the controllers we are discussing. http://www.dccontrol.com/constant_te...ontrollers.htm
He sent me a link to his older website to provide a lot of technical information. It's WAY more information and technical than most customers would care to attempt to understand.
http://www.dccontrol.com/introf3.htm
He sent me a link to his older website to provide a lot of technical information. It's WAY more information and technical than most customers would care to attempt to understand.
http://www.dccontrol.com/introf3.htm
08-13-2014, 10:23 PM
#28
Nordschleife Master
Jon,
I know we have discussed this issue via PM's and posts in each of our threads. I hope you don't consider this a 'hijack' as I think we have the same goal in common. The discussion just got its own legs here. If it is OK with you we could keep these theoretic posts here, and I can keep the mechanical install testing stuff on mine when I get to it shortly.
Craig
I know we have discussed this issue via PM's and posts in each of our threads. I hope you don't consider this a 'hijack' as I think we have the same goal in common. The discussion just got its own legs here. If it is OK with you we could keep these theoretic posts here, and I can keep the mechanical install testing stuff on mine when I get to it shortly.
Craig
08-13-2014, 11:12 PM
#29
Drifting
Thread Starter
No worries Craig....I like how these threads drift in a way that is still relevant to the original question. Folks considering alternatives to the OEM systems will appreciate the more in depth probing that Alan initiated. I look forward to your thread on your install. Take lots of pictures. You'll be creating the first DIY guide for an aftermarket fan controller for an 87+.