What to look for when buying a "recycled" engine
07-01-2014, 09:29 AM
#1
Burning Brakes
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What to look for when buying a "recycled" engine
I thought I would make this post for the benefit of others who may contemplate going the recycled engine route. This applies only to the generic recycle yard. Guys like 928 International and the Strange Companies know better
MUST:
1) The engine MUST HAVE a full-return warranty
2) The engine MUST BE completely drained of all fluids. Most recycle yards think that once the radiator hoses are pulled the 928 is drained - WRONG. If the two drain plugs near the rear of the block just behind the exhaust pipes are not removed then the engine is still full of water.
Depending on how long the engine sat in the PO's back 40 acres and on the shelf at the recycle yard will determine just how sour the antifreeze will be and how much damage the heads and water pump will sustain. Due to the hi Si content of the block, it will remain near perfect.
However the heads are much softer and very susceptible to corrosion and this is especially the case with steel core head gaskets. The combination of Al and Fe (Al + Fe2O3 = Thermite; fun stuff) makes for a nice corrosive soup that will require TIG repairs to the head decks.
3) The recycle yard MUST supply pictures of the engine at 6 points, top, bottom, lh, rh, front and rear
4) The recycle yard MUST supply pictures of the timing gear chain uncovered
5) The recycle yard MUST have a good attitude and reputation and be willing to work with you. Be up front and let them know you are a choosy buyer. If they run away then let that be a red flag to you
MUST NOT:
1) The engine MUST NOT have nothing more than minor cosmetic damage unless you're getting it for $100-200. Anything dented, hacked off, etc., makes the product suspect. I have bought two recycle engines one with known left hand car damage and one that "had no damage". In both cases the left cam gear was toast.
The first engine with known and stated damage also had a bad left cam and a miniscule block deformity that turned into a catastrophic failure. The other engine that supposedly had no damage had actually been run with a bad cam gear for some time and all the aluminum timing gears were grooved and junk.
SHOULD HAVE:
1) The recycle yard SHOULD HAVE an idea of or an accurate record of the mileage. This can be a real challenge with many yards. They are hesitant to guarantee mileage due to the fact they have no idea what the PO had done to the vehicle. This is especially the case when they cannot check the speedo
ALL IS NOT LOST:
If you get the parts and find that there is a problem consider the severity and what can and cannot be reasonably salvaged. In my case I was in search of a euro engine. I found one and it hadn't been properly drained.
So I videoed the draining process and then we did a partial disassembly to show the damage to the head decks. I paid $1,275 for a M28.22 that was sent freight from FL to NH - not a bad deal for a euro 16V engine.
I called the recycle yard and sent them pictures and video. In the end I negotiated them down $500. I prolly could have negotiated harder, but I want to keep a relationship with the yard and didn't want to squeeze them too hard. After all the cost of freight was $275 alone so they weren't killing it on the engine.
The heads required 15 spots to be machined and TIG welded and then decked at .008" to make them nice. That is the good and bad thing about the alloy of these heads. They are malleable which makes for easy welding; but in turn it makes them more prone to corrosion.
I hope that helps anyone contemplating a recycle yard purchase.
Cheers,
Fronkensteen
MUST:
1) The engine MUST HAVE a full-return warranty
2) The engine MUST BE completely drained of all fluids. Most recycle yards think that once the radiator hoses are pulled the 928 is drained - WRONG. If the two drain plugs near the rear of the block just behind the exhaust pipes are not removed then the engine is still full of water.
Depending on how long the engine sat in the PO's back 40 acres and on the shelf at the recycle yard will determine just how sour the antifreeze will be and how much damage the heads and water pump will sustain. Due to the hi Si content of the block, it will remain near perfect.
However the heads are much softer and very susceptible to corrosion and this is especially the case with steel core head gaskets. The combination of Al and Fe (Al + Fe2O3 = Thermite; fun stuff) makes for a nice corrosive soup that will require TIG repairs to the head decks.
3) The recycle yard MUST supply pictures of the engine at 6 points, top, bottom, lh, rh, front and rear
4) The recycle yard MUST supply pictures of the timing gear chain uncovered
5) The recycle yard MUST have a good attitude and reputation and be willing to work with you. Be up front and let them know you are a choosy buyer. If they run away then let that be a red flag to you
MUST NOT:
1) The engine MUST NOT have nothing more than minor cosmetic damage unless you're getting it for $100-200. Anything dented, hacked off, etc., makes the product suspect. I have bought two recycle engines one with known left hand car damage and one that "had no damage". In both cases the left cam gear was toast.
The first engine with known and stated damage also had a bad left cam and a miniscule block deformity that turned into a catastrophic failure. The other engine that supposedly had no damage had actually been run with a bad cam gear for some time and all the aluminum timing gears were grooved and junk.
SHOULD HAVE:
1) The recycle yard SHOULD HAVE an idea of or an accurate record of the mileage. This can be a real challenge with many yards. They are hesitant to guarantee mileage due to the fact they have no idea what the PO had done to the vehicle. This is especially the case when they cannot check the speedo
ALL IS NOT LOST:
If you get the parts and find that there is a problem consider the severity and what can and cannot be reasonably salvaged. In my case I was in search of a euro engine. I found one and it hadn't been properly drained.
So I videoed the draining process and then we did a partial disassembly to show the damage to the head decks. I paid $1,275 for a M28.22 that was sent freight from FL to NH - not a bad deal for a euro 16V engine.
I called the recycle yard and sent them pictures and video. In the end I negotiated them down $500. I prolly could have negotiated harder, but I want to keep a relationship with the yard and didn't want to squeeze them too hard. After all the cost of freight was $275 alone so they weren't killing it on the engine.
The heads required 15 spots to be machined and TIG welded and then decked at .008" to make them nice. That is the good and bad thing about the alloy of these heads. They are malleable which makes for easy welding; but in turn it makes them more prone to corrosion.
I hope that helps anyone contemplating a recycle yard purchase.
Cheers,
Fronkensteen
07-02-2014, 05:28 AM
#2
Nordschleife Master
Start asking a lot of needed to be asked questions and the average junk yard will start thinking its something VALUABLE and that can fubar the whole deal. Most yards are never going see another 928, and never sell you personally another part, they aren't going to change their rules and practices to suit you.
Get someone local to look over the motor and maybe broker the deal with you calling to pay.
Even freight to a terminal on a pallet is $300 to $400, what sort of transaction has room for two way shipping costs being eaten, plus you won't know how bad it is until the heads and pan are off.
Best to assume the engine is toast with some recoverable parts, and priced accordingly. Unless its a great deal on a special motor, even better to just buy the heads and keep the heavy stuff local.
Get someone local to look over the motor and maybe broker the deal with you calling to pay.
Even freight to a terminal on a pallet is $300 to $400, what sort of transaction has room for two way shipping costs being eaten, plus you won't know how bad it is until the heads and pan are off.
Best to assume the engine is toast with some recoverable parts, and priced accordingly. Unless its a great deal on a special motor, even better to just buy the heads and keep the heavy stuff local.
07-02-2014, 07:51 AM
#3
Burning Brakes
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Danglerb this is prolly true for the one-off small yard. Not to be contradictory, but not the two experiences with 928 recycle yards have been positive with respect to providing this info. Is all in good you sell them on the request. My approach is that the pre-inspection is for both of our protection from carrier damage.
In the case of "unless it's a great deal" as you say; well consider that Mark Anderson told me that any euro engine is a bargain under $2500 I would say that the M28.22 I purchased for $1275 delivered was a bargain. He told me they used to get $3500 for "a runner".
And I don't care if I hear the engine running, unless there is very recent paperwork from a shop that had an excellent Porsche service heritage, I am going to do a partial disassembly and re-seal the entire engine sans girdle, including replace the rod bearings.
The most basic reason I insist on this is the great potential for head gasket and water pump shaft seal failure. You really don't know how long the engine has sat around. And almost no one puts anti-corrosion and lubricant additive in their cars' coming system.
At the end of the day its all about your relationship with your vendors.
Fronkensteen
In the case of "unless it's a great deal" as you say; well consider that Mark Anderson told me that any euro engine is a bargain under $2500 I would say that the M28.22 I purchased for $1275 delivered was a bargain. He told me they used to get $3500 for "a runner".
And I don't care if I hear the engine running, unless there is very recent paperwork from a shop that had an excellent Porsche service heritage, I am going to do a partial disassembly and re-seal the entire engine sans girdle, including replace the rod bearings.
The most basic reason I insist on this is the great potential for head gasket and water pump shaft seal failure. You really don't know how long the engine has sat around. And almost no one puts anti-corrosion and lubricant additive in their cars' coming system.
At the end of the day its all about your relationship with your vendors.
Fronkensteen
07-02-2014, 04:30 PM
#6
School me a little on this, what does it mean? The chamber may be "clean" due to coolant from blown gasket steam-cleaning it? What about the ridge at top of bore, what causes that or what does it indicate?
07-02-2014, 04:43 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
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Not really the right thread for this but... If you pull a head and find one cylinder remarkably clean in comparison with its brethren, it has been getting a nice steam clean due to a head gasket leak.
First there is no ridge here at all. What is being referred to is a bit of minor carbon deposits that came off with a toothbrush :-)
However in some cases a high mileage engine will exhibit a ridge at the top of the ring travel. This is normal wear over a long period of time in iron blocks and less noticeable in high Si content of other alloy blocks.
Fronkensteen
First there is no ridge here at all. What is being referred to is a bit of minor carbon deposits that came off with a toothbrush :-)
However in some cases a high mileage engine will exhibit a ridge at the top of the ring travel. This is normal wear over a long period of time in iron blocks and less noticeable in high Si content of other alloy blocks.
Fronkensteen
