xschop

The 928 wins in the high speed stability department, 944 in the twistys.

hacker-pschorr

I struggle with this all the time. IMO a "true" sports car is a very narrow, limited definition. It should be reserved for a car that contains nothing except the bare necessities for driving. No cup holders, A/C, and even power steering should be omitted.

The 'Brits invented the sports car with vehicles like the MG. Some people think that if a car is fast it must be a sports car, which is nonsense. If that were the case, station wagons and a few pickups (GMC Cyclone...) would be "sports cars".

Weight is a huge criteria for me. I have a hard time considering any auto a "sports car" if it's much more than 3,000lbs. Should be closer to 2,000lbs IMO.
It also must be rear wheel drive, no front or all wheel, ever.

The purest sports cars on the market today are the Lotus Elise, Subaru BRZ, Mazda Miata. I struggle with the BRZ being on this list simply because it has back seats...... Yes, I'm a bit overboard when it comes to this topic.

Two of the greatest sports cars of all time are the Ferrari 250 GTO and Shelby Cobra.

I get a lot of flack for calling the current 911 "not a sports car". It's too heavy, too luxurious, etc... I don't car how fast it is.

Have you ever driven a go-cart???

Go-Carts have zero (or very limited suspension) and very low front caster (if not zero caster). That is the opposite of how a 928 is setup.. Go drive a Lotus Elise then hop back in a 928.

James Bailey

Right go-carts FEEL fast because you are sitting 3 inches off the ground in a twitchy little short wheel based contraption nearly as wide as it is long And handling or turning like a go-cart is not really a compliment in my opinion in spite of how that term is frequently used ! They are good training for racing other cars BECAUSE they are difficult to drive really well......

tv

Yes I have, they have a wide low stance and go where you put them the same as my 928. I wouldn't waste my time on an elise.

hacker-pschorr

I can say the same thing about my Saab 9-5 and Scirocco.

Hate to break it to you, but an Elise handles better than your 928, any day on any track. The only advantage a 928 has is power, so on a longer track it will come out ahead.
That doesn't make it a better handling car, just faster in some situations.

As Jim Bailey said, comparing a 928 to a go-cart is not a compliment.... It's an entirely different car. Just the turn in feel of a 928 is so far removed form a go-cart or any "go-cart" like car, it's an absurd comparison. Granted, with some modifications you could dial in a 928 to feel like that (would need custom upper control arms), but you would probably ruin the overall car in the process.

If your 928 truly does feel 100% like a go-cart, you might want to check your bushings or replace your shocks.

Just saw this on R&T, very fitting considering this discussion:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/voices/c...?src=soc_fcbks

Sad truth that sports cars are a dying breed. Hopefully some companies keep them alive in the US. Those lucky Europeans get cars like the Ariel Atom and Radical, for street use.

tv

You're probably right on the parts replacement needs.

But why all the track talk and this little sh!tbox and that little sh!tbox. Unless you're driving F1 it's kinda tame stuff, from what I can see. I would never drive a nice street car in that situation anyway. My guess is the thrills. 4 wheels simply can't match 2 wheels in that department.

I just watched this video from Road America on youtube, v=5OycstH6nGg , an elise racing around, boring! As are most video's I have seen of street cars on race tracks. I have nothing against people doing that, but there is nothing thrilling about it to me. Those speeds weren't impressive cornering or straights. And a good 2 wheeler is way more exciting.

The more time goes by the more I am impressed by the 928 as 1 of the best cars for the STREET.

hacker-pschorr

I actually have a plan to install a custom upper front control arm that will give me the ability to radically change the front camber / caster. What I'm searching for now is a non-power rack I can retrofit into the 928.

It's probably a really stupid project, but one of those things I just want to do, just for the sake of doing it. I'm basically copying the setup on my replica Cobra which already has this adjustability.

It's funny you should say this since IMO the lightweight, nimble, bare bones sports cars excel on the street. Driving a car like the BRZ around town can be a lot of fun without getting arrested.
My supercharged 928 on the other hand, is so capable of break neck speeds on a moments notice, that tooling around town at the BRZ level can be boring. I have to "up the ante" for the same "rush" in my 928. That is where things get complicated.....and somewhat illegal.

As for the video, how is that boring?? 100mph into the kink??? 150mph into turn 1..... with a 2.32.xx lap time....in a street car?? On top of that, with a passenger.
It would be interesting to know what tires he has on there.
For comparison, one of our local guys is an accomplished driver, with a lightweight EuroS full race car on race tires has a best lap time in the 2:32 area.

These discussions always have me torn since the 928 is my favorite car of all time (have two, will be three eventually) but at the same time I have a large place in my heart for pure sports cars. Which is why I hope to never part with my replica Cobra.

MjRocket

Hacker its a bit of a thread hijack but post up a couple pics of your cobra rep, I'd luv to see it.

RKD in OKC

Had a well setup 89 944 Turbo S and a well setup 90 928 GT. Both had very similar specs stock new with respect to 0-60 etc. Both had similar modifications, Chips, springs and sway bars to improve the Track performance (specifically Autocross), but not so much as to effect the street ride.

First there is quick and there is faster. Quicker is acceleration like on the drag strip. Faster is a combination of straight line, cornering AND Feel. If you don't feel comfortable driving faster your right foot will not push the pedal down farther even if there is travel left.

Despite he similar 0-60 times the 944 Turbo FELT much quicker as the turbo makes a torque curve that increases with rpm. This makes it feel like it is accelerating faster and faster as the rpms increase. In the 928 the flat torque curve makes the acceleration not feel as fast because the rate of acceleration does not increase with rpms. That being said there is not many cars quicker than a 944 Turbo S from 70 to 110, 3rd Gear. Even though the 930 Turbo was faster 0-60 the 944 Turbo S was enough quicker from 70-100 to match the 930s 0-100 times. Thin 928 because of it's stronger lower rpm torque takes the advantage over the turbo cars acceleration at speeds over 120, above third gear.

Autocrossing both cars were very capable and handle very well. Was able to drive both at a couple of events, set FTD with 944 Turbo and got second fastest time in the 928 GT with a supercharged 3.8 RS America 911 getting 3rd. The 928 GT was almost 2 seconds per 70 second lap slower and the 911 another 2 seconds behind the 928. The difference in times between the 944 and 928 was not cornering speed but the acceleration and braking penalty of the heavier 928. Both cars were running same brand and sizes of tires. The 944 Turbo was easier put into and maintain a 4 wheel drift in the corners, but not because of weight. Instead it was the weissach rear end on the 928. The passive steering made the edge between full grip and no control a lot narrower than on the 944 Turbo. The 944 Trubo has a softer edge.

City driving both are fun, but again different. The turbo starts coming on just as you are about to shift under normal driving making the car beg you to go faster and accelerate harder. I blame the 944 Turbo for making me a more aggressive driver. The low end torque, weight, and lower power steering assist make the 928 feel bigger and heavier than it is.

Highway driving the 928 is much more comfortable. It is the combination of steering effoer (the 928 is lower assist to make steering at higher speeds less twitchy), the low end torque curve (you don't have to downshift the 928 to pass cars), stability (the heaver weight make the 928 more resistant to change direction at higher speeds), the lower cabin noise, and the tiny bit more reclined seating position. The 944 Turbo feels like you are cruising at ground level in a single engine cessna. The 928 feels like you cruising at found level in a lear het.

All in all the best comparison I can think of is the 944 Turbo feels like a task chair, the 928 an executive recliner.

tv

Well in the video he hits 145 peak on the long straight, gets off the gas, brakes forever and apex's @98mph and on other sweepers he is actually quite slow it seems. From memory I would say I have done better in my euro on certain turns and for acceleration, BUT, the whole point of the 928 is you can do that while in one of the best looking cars there is in total luxury, listening to music totally relaxed and the car does not even show any signs of hitting its limit vs. that stripped down rattle trap on a track.

Driving a nice car on a nice road is much more rewarding than that Road America video. Nice roads give a greater effect of speed when things like trees are closer to you than wide open tracks. see here




This guy is having more fun on the highway than all those track guy's, @2:00 those are nice turns he's taking at a good pace;


For me the only 4 wheel fun on a track would be a P1 or something like this;

tv

And as nice as those video's are they would not bring the thrills I get on what I spend most of my time on these days, no car can match the feeling of the acceleration and cornering of what this is capable of;

WallyP

OK, a couple of "old guy" stories...

One of the old magazine stories about the 928 told of their attempt to get their traditional "cornering" photo. They had a very photogenic corner that they used for their photos of the car working hard around a corner - heeled over, tires working hard, etc.
The driver took the corner at a pretty good speed - photographer said that it didn't look fast. "I can go faster." Still didn't look fast. After a dozen tries, going around the corner faster than they had in any other car they had tested - still didn't look fast. They gave up, and said that it might be the best handling car they had ever tested.
I don't remember which magazine it was, but the article is in one of the books of 928 magazine articles...

Quite a few years ago, we were planning to build a Bonneville car. I wanted to start with a Fiat 850, but our owner/sponsor bought some kind of small Fiat sedan POS race car for us to try. It was the worst-handling car that I have ever put my butt into. We discovered that the PO had put chains on the rear swing arms to limit the droop. When you hit the limit, the tail came out instantly. You could then get around the corner pretty well, but it looked like a drift car (years before anyone had ever thought of drifting). You had two attitudes - stable and drift.
We convinced him that we didn't need or want that particular Fiat, so he told us to take it to a Road Atlanta meet and run it so someone would buy it.
I became famous for the weekend, and had at least a dozen corner workers come to the pits to see if I was having as much fun as it looked like - I was.
I have driven several racing cars, and it still seems strange that the slowest, worst-handling car I have ever driven was also the most fun.
A guy and his teenage son came to our pits to buy the car. I told them how poorly it handled, and showed them why. The dad said that he wanted his son to learn to drive it, so that he would learn how to handle over-steer...

You guys need to remember that "real Porsche" owners think that the early 911 handles great, and that the 928 is boring.

xschop

Interesting thread. I've driven an LS6 944 to test the Lexus brakes we swapped in..... It's a game changer. I just saw the post/comment from RKD about the 928 power steering tuned down for high speed stability. I thought my GM PS pump/rack combo was a little slow until I saw his post , so a quicker-ratio PS rack would wake the LS1 928 up in the twisties and be comparable to the LS1 944.

Raize

That's interesting, I would have thought the opposite would be true with the 928's longer wheelbase, lower COG, and better (double wishbone front + multilink rear vs MacPherson Strut + trailing arms) suspension setup?

RKD in OKC

Think of it this way. There is a range of slip angle the tires turn the car, but do not completely let go. Just as an example lets say 7 to 12 degrees. That means you have that range to control the car while in a 4 wheel drift. All those things mentioned above increase the effective slip angle, but reduce the range, say from 12 to 16 degrees. While the car is faster, there is less range to work with to keep the car in a controllable 4 wheel drift. When talking of tires themselves a tire that has a narrow slip angle range is said to have a hard edge, i.e. once it starts to slide, it looses all traction very quickly and you have lost control. A tire with a wide slip angle range is said to have a soft edge, or it still provides traction after it starts to slip so you can maintain control easier.

The slow settling of the suspension that effects getting a proper alignment also effects these slip angle speeds making the car less predictable.