1983 no power at the starter
02-09-2013, 10:53 PM
#31
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Standard 53 or 24 relay - Defrost would work.
Wrong!
I had quickly glanced at the wiring diagram, and missed the additional symbol inside the relay. The injection relay (928.615.119.00) is different - the usual "53" relay is not proper in this slot.
(The "53" is the number usually stamped on the top of the 141.951.253.B relay that is used in several slots on the 928. The "24" is a lower-rated version of this relay - the "53" is specified and is a much better choice in a 928.)
You can make a special relay jumper if you want to test the circuit - one flat 1/4" spade connector to 30 and two connectors to the two 87 connectors (all in the relay socket).
My apologies for the error, and my thanks to David for pointing it out to me.
Wrong!
I had quickly glanced at the wiring diagram, and missed the additional symbol inside the relay. The injection relay (928.615.119.00) is different - the usual "53" relay is not proper in this slot.
(The "53" is the number usually stamped on the top of the 141.951.253.B relay that is used in several slots on the 928. The "24" is a lower-rated version of this relay - the "53" is specified and is a much better choice in a 928.)
You can make a special relay jumper if you want to test the circuit - one flat 1/4" spade connector to 30 and two connectors to the two 87 connectors (all in the relay socket).
My apologies for the error, and my thanks to David for pointing it out to me.
Last edited by WallyP; 02-10-2013 at 09:44 AM.
02-10-2013, 10:36 AM
#32
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Standard 53 or 24 relay - Defrost would work.
Wrong!
I had quickly glanced at the wiring diagram, and missed the additional symbol inside the relay. The injection relay (928.615.119.00) is different - the usual "53" relay is not proper in this slot.
(The "53" is the number usually stamped on the top of the 141.951.253.B relay that is used in several slots on the 928. The "24" is a lower-rated version of this relay - the "53" is specified and is a much better choice in a 928.)
You can make a special relay jumper if you want to test the circuit - one flat 1/4" spade connector to 30 and two connectors to the two 87 connectors (all in the relay socket).
My apologies for the error, and my thanks to David for pointing it out to me.
Wrong!
I had quickly glanced at the wiring diagram, and missed the additional symbol inside the relay. The injection relay (928.615.119.00) is different - the usual "53" relay is not proper in this slot.
(The "53" is the number usually stamped on the top of the 141.951.253.B relay that is used in several slots on the 928. The "24" is a lower-rated version of this relay - the "53" is specified and is a much better choice in a 928.)
You can make a special relay jumper if you want to test the circuit - one flat 1/4" spade connector to 30 and two connectors to the two 87 connectors (all in the relay socket).
My apologies for the error, and my thanks to David for pointing it out to me.
So to complete the test (and forgive me for being 928 dumb), I would make the connections and then try to see if the car will run, right? Or is there something else I'm supposed to do?
Again many thanks for the help,
David
02-10-2013, 11:00 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
If its almost catching, then I think you should leave the relays alone for the time being.
If you want to jumper the fuel injection relay anyway, put the 3-wire jumper into 30, 87 and 87a (or 30, 87, 87, depending on how its marked / same thing, same positions).
Maybe now shift attention to a large vac leak around the intake. And confirming timing marks.
How about some decent resolution pictures of engine compartment and fuse panel to help those of us at home? And out of curiosity, where are you?
It really doesn't make much sense to try to start the car, BTW, before you clean all the grounds, replace neg bat cable, remove/inspect/clean the panel, replace the critical operations relays with new, all new fuses, clean the entire (backs removed) 14pin connector, confirm timing, clean distrib, check coil end for corrosion, inspect plugs. And look for huge vac leaks. If/when it starts, shut it down and put the key away until you replace fuel lines. There's a methodology. Every time I skip the sequence, it bites me.
If you want to jumper the fuel injection relay anyway, put the 3-wire jumper into 30, 87 and 87a (or 30, 87, 87, depending on how its marked / same thing, same positions).
Maybe now shift attention to a large vac leak around the intake. And confirming timing marks.
How about some decent resolution pictures of engine compartment and fuse panel to help those of us at home? And out of curiosity, where are you?
It really doesn't make much sense to try to start the car, BTW, before you clean all the grounds, replace neg bat cable, remove/inspect/clean the panel, replace the critical operations relays with new, all new fuses, clean the entire (backs removed) 14pin connector, confirm timing, clean distrib, check coil end for corrosion, inspect plugs. And look for huge vac leaks. If/when it starts, shut it down and put the key away until you replace fuel lines. There's a methodology. Every time I skip the sequence, it bites me.
02-10-2013, 11:24 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
Looks like you are making good progress.
Maybe change your title to something like 83 No Start since the starter now turns.
You never did say if you have manuals or diagrams so check these links for anything useful.
http://www.ligeti.com/928/
http://www.2010.cannell.co.uk/manual...s_porsche.html
Sorry I am no help but I am enjoying following along.
Keep up the good work ..........
.................... and .
............................ POST PICTURES !!!!!
Maybe change your title to something like 83 No Start since the starter now turns.
You never did say if you have manuals or diagrams so check these links for anything useful.
http://www.ligeti.com/928/
http://www.2010.cannell.co.uk/manual...s_porsche.html
Sorry I am no help but I am enjoying following along.
Keep up the good work ..........
.................... and .
............................ POST PICTURES !!!!!
02-10-2013, 11:58 AM
#35
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If its almost catching, then I think you should leave the relays alone for the time being.
If you want to jumper the fuel injection relay anyway, put the 3-wire jumper into 30, 87 and 87a (or 30, 87, 87, depending on how its marked / same thing, same positions).
Maybe now shift attention to a large vac leak around the intake. And confirming timing marks.
How about some decent resolution pictures of engine compartment and fuse panel to help those of us at home? And out of curiosity, where are you?
It really doesn't make much sense to try to start the car, BTW, before you clean all the grounds, replace neg bat cable, remove/inspect/clean the panel, replace the critical operations relays with new, all new fuses, clean the entire (backs removed) 14pin connector, confirm timing, clean distrib, check coil end for corrosion, inspect plugs. And look for huge vac leaks. If/when it starts, shut it down and put the key away until you replace fuel lines. There's a methodology. Every time I skip the sequence, it bites me.
If you want to jumper the fuel injection relay anyway, put the 3-wire jumper into 30, 87 and 87a (or 30, 87, 87, depending on how its marked / same thing, same positions).
Maybe now shift attention to a large vac leak around the intake. And confirming timing marks.
How about some decent resolution pictures of engine compartment and fuse panel to help those of us at home? And out of curiosity, where are you?
It really doesn't make much sense to try to start the car, BTW, before you clean all the grounds, replace neg bat cable, remove/inspect/clean the panel, replace the critical operations relays with new, all new fuses, clean the entire (backs removed) 14pin connector, confirm timing, clean distrib, check coil end for corrosion, inspect plugs. And look for huge vac leaks. If/when it starts, shut it down and put the key away until you replace fuel lines. There's a methodology. Every time I skip the sequence, it bites me.
I think I need to get a 15 second start before I go investing time/money on a car that is in deplorable condition (sat outside for 6 years with a large hole in the rear glass) and would be pretty much a restoration project that would no doubt take years and thousands of dollars. I want to start it before I go down that road. Sooo, I'm gonna try to jump the relay socket I think. As an aside, I did hear it run six years ago and it ran ok. At that time it didn't seem like it had running problems like what we would see with vacum leaks or timing problems....(however it does have a serious manual transmission problem from what I understand)
I'm just double checking (primarily for a cracked block or internal damage beyond my desire to get into)
02-10-2013, 12:00 PM
#36
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Looks like you are making good progress.
Maybe change your title to something like 83 No Start since the starter now turns.
You never did say if you have manuals or diagrams so check these links for anything useful.
http://www.ligeti.com/928/
http://www.2010.cannell.co.uk/manual...s_porsche.html
Sorry I am no help but I am enjoying following along.
Keep up the good work ..........
.................... and .
............................ POST PICTURES !!!!!
Maybe change your title to something like 83 No Start since the starter now turns.
You never did say if you have manuals or diagrams so check these links for anything useful.
http://www.ligeti.com/928/
http://www.2010.cannell.co.uk/manual...s_porsche.html
Sorry I am no help but I am enjoying following along.
Keep up the good work ..........
.................... and .
............................ POST PICTURES !!!!!
I do have (online) manuals and diagrams that I'm using for diagnostic purposes. If I decide to keep this car and restore it, no doubt I'll invest in something more robust.
Thanks!
02-10-2013, 10:08 PM
#37
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If its almost catching, then I think you should leave the relays alone for the time being.
If you want to jumper the fuel injection relay anyway, put the 3-wire jumper into 30, 87 and 87a (or 30, 87, 87, depending on how its marked / same thing, same positions).
Maybe now shift attention to a large vac leak around the intake. And confirming timing marks.
How about some decent resolution pictures of engine compartment and fuse panel to help those of us at home? And out of curiosity, where are you?
It really doesn't make much sense to try to start the car, BTW, before you clean all the grounds, replace neg bat cable, remove/inspect/clean the panel, replace the critical operations relays with new, all new fuses, clean the entire (backs removed) 14pin connector, confirm timing, clean distrib, check coil end for corrosion, inspect plugs. And look for huge vac leaks. If/when it starts, shut it down and put the key away until you replace fuel lines. There's a methodology. Every time I skip the sequence, it bites me.
If you want to jumper the fuel injection relay anyway, put the 3-wire jumper into 30, 87 and 87a (or 30, 87, 87, depending on how its marked / same thing, same positions).
Maybe now shift attention to a large vac leak around the intake. And confirming timing marks.
How about some decent resolution pictures of engine compartment and fuse panel to help those of us at home? And out of curiosity, where are you?
It really doesn't make much sense to try to start the car, BTW, before you clean all the grounds, replace neg bat cable, remove/inspect/clean the panel, replace the critical operations relays with new, all new fuses, clean the entire (backs removed) 14pin connector, confirm timing, clean distrib, check coil end for corrosion, inspect plugs. And look for huge vac leaks. If/when it starts, shut it down and put the key away until you replace fuel lines. There's a methodology. Every time I skip the sequence, it bites me.
02-10-2013, 11:03 PM
#38
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Take two 6"pieces of insulated primary automotive wire (standard wire). Strip all four ends 3/16".
Get three male 1/4" flat spade connectors. Put one connector on one end of one wire. Put one connector on one end of the other wire.
Take the unconnected ends of each wire and put them in the third connector. You now have a "V" with a connector at each of the three points.
Look at the side of the relay. Using the schematic on the relay, identify the female slot for the "30" terminal in the relay socket. To double-check to ensure that this is the proper terminal, check the voltage on the terminal using a test light or voltmeter - there should be 12 vdc on the terminal at all times.
Identify the "87" terminal in the relay socket, and identify either another "87" terminal or an "87a" terminal.
Plug one leg of the V-shaped relay jumper into each of these three terminals. Try to start the engine. If it now runs, the relay is probably faulty. If it doesn't run, there is probably another problem.
Report back on what you did, and what happened. Be verbose and precise.
Get three male 1/4" flat spade connectors. Put one connector on one end of one wire. Put one connector on one end of the other wire.
Take the unconnected ends of each wire and put them in the third connector. You now have a "V" with a connector at each of the three points.
Look at the side of the relay. Using the schematic on the relay, identify the female slot for the "30" terminal in the relay socket. To double-check to ensure that this is the proper terminal, check the voltage on the terminal using a test light or voltmeter - there should be 12 vdc on the terminal at all times.
Identify the "87" terminal in the relay socket, and identify either another "87" terminal or an "87a" terminal.
Plug one leg of the V-shaped relay jumper into each of these three terminals. Try to start the engine. If it now runs, the relay is probably faulty. If it doesn't run, there is probably another problem.
Report back on what you did, and what happened. Be verbose and precise.
02-11-2013, 04:20 PM
#39
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Take two 6"pieces of insulated primary automotive wire (standard wire). Strip all four ends 3/16".
Get three male 1/4" flat spade connectors. Put one connector on one end of one wire. Put one connector on one end of the other wire.
Take the unconnected ends of each wire and put them in the third connector. You now have a "V" with a connector at each of the three points.
Look at the side of the relay. Using the schematic on the relay, identify the female slot for the "30" terminal in the relay socket. To double-check to ensure that this is the proper terminal, check the voltage on the terminal using a test light or voltmeter - there should be 12 vdc on the terminal at all times.
Identify the "87" terminal in the relay socket, and identify either another "87" terminal or an "87a" terminal.
Plug one leg of the V-shaped relay jumper into each of these three terminals. Try to start the engine. If it now runs, the relay is probably faulty. If it doesn't run, there is probably another problem.
Report back on what you did, and what happened. Be verbose and precise.
Get three male 1/4" flat spade connectors. Put one connector on one end of one wire. Put one connector on one end of the other wire.
Take the unconnected ends of each wire and put them in the third connector. You now have a "V" with a connector at each of the three points.
Look at the side of the relay. Using the schematic on the relay, identify the female slot for the "30" terminal in the relay socket. To double-check to ensure that this is the proper terminal, check the voltage on the terminal using a test light or voltmeter - there should be 12 vdc on the terminal at all times.
Identify the "87" terminal in the relay socket, and identify either another "87" terminal or an "87a" terminal.
Plug one leg of the V-shaped relay jumper into each of these three terminals. Try to start the engine. If it now runs, the relay is probably faulty. If it doesn't run, there is probably another problem.
Report back on what you did, and what happened. Be verbose and precise.
I'm happy to report I had a 15 second start today!
Per directions, I created a jumper at the XVI fuel injection relay (jumping both 87 poles to the 30 pole) as the starter was turning and the fuel pump was buzzing (after curing those problems) but no start was occuring.
Once the jumper was in place the vehicle immediately started and ran albeit roughly and with a great deal of smoke (very rich) from the tail pipe. It also sounds as if there is a large exhaust manifold leak. That said, I heard nothing from the engine itself that would indicate internal damage.
Now I must decide if I will restore this car or part it out as it's condition is very very rough having sat outside with a hole in the rear glass for some six years. At the very least the entire cars interior will have to be removed and redone as well as the manual transmission coming out for a rebuild as the sincros are shot. Not to mention the electrical components/systems will need a thorough examination and renovation.
I would like to say a hearty "thank you" to all who made valuable input in this initial work as I would never have been able to get it to start without the lists help.
Good on ya!
On a funnier note-before I attempt a longer running period, naturally I have much to do in preparation, notwithstanding the washing of the engine and compartment which are filled an inch deep with accorn shells that are the remnants of the previous occupants.
02-11-2013, 05:19 PM
#40
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If its almost catching, then I think you should leave the relays alone for the time being.
If you want to jumper the fuel injection relay anyway, put the 3-wire jumper into 30, 87 and 87a (or 30, 87, 87, depending on how its marked / same thing, same positions).
Maybe now shift attention to a large vac leak around the intake. And confirming timing marks.
How about some decent resolution pictures of engine compartment and fuse panel to help those of us at home? And out of curiosity, where are you?
It really doesn't make much sense to try to start the car, BTW, before you clean all the grounds, replace neg bat cable, remove/inspect/clean the panel, replace the critical operations relays with new, all new fuses, clean the entire (backs removed) 14pin connector, confirm timing, clean distrib, check coil end for corrosion, inspect plugs. And look for huge vac leaks. If/when it starts, shut it down and put the key away until you replace fuel lines. There's a methodology. Every time I skip the sequence, it bites me.
If you want to jumper the fuel injection relay anyway, put the 3-wire jumper into 30, 87 and 87a (or 30, 87, 87, depending on how its marked / same thing, same positions).
Maybe now shift attention to a large vac leak around the intake. And confirming timing marks.
How about some decent resolution pictures of engine compartment and fuse panel to help those of us at home? And out of curiosity, where are you?
It really doesn't make much sense to try to start the car, BTW, before you clean all the grounds, replace neg bat cable, remove/inspect/clean the panel, replace the critical operations relays with new, all new fuses, clean the entire (backs removed) 14pin connector, confirm timing, clean distrib, check coil end for corrosion, inspect plugs. And look for huge vac leaks. If/when it starts, shut it down and put the key away until you replace fuel lines. There's a methodology. Every time I skip the sequence, it bites me.
Again, thanks for everyone's help!
02-11-2013, 06:32 PM
#41
Team Owner
it looks like fuse #3 is blown,
and the fuse thats missing has a heat marks indicating that the connections of the tangs are probably corroded,
thus making for a poor connection,
put a fuse the burned slot,
drop the Ce panel down,
see if there is voltage being transferred to each wire thats coming off the fuse tangs.
get a fuse relay chart and remove any fuse thats not supposed to be in the panel,
NOTE there should be some missing fuses extra fuses,
putting fuses into the empty slots can back feed power to systems that shouldnt have it.
Also the last fuse slot has a missing fuse, IIRC it should be filled
and the fuse thats missing has a heat marks indicating that the connections of the tangs are probably corroded,
thus making for a poor connection,
put a fuse the burned slot,
drop the Ce panel down,
see if there is voltage being transferred to each wire thats coming off the fuse tangs.
get a fuse relay chart and remove any fuse thats not supposed to be in the panel,
NOTE there should be some missing fuses extra fuses,
putting fuses into the empty slots can back feed power to systems that shouldnt have it.
Also the last fuse slot has a missing fuse, IIRC it should be filled
02-11-2013, 07:39 PM
#42
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it looks like fuse #3 is blown,
and the fuse thats missing has a heat marks indicating that the connections of the tangs are probably corroded,
thus making for a poor connection,
put a fuse the burned slot,
drop the Ce panel down,
see if there is voltage being transferred to each wire thats coming off the fuse tangs.
get a fuse relay chart and remove any fuse thats not supposed to be in the panel,
NOTE there should be some missing fuses extra fuses,
putting fuses into the empty slots can back feed power to systems that shouldnt have it.
Also the last fuse slot has a missing fuse, IIRC it should be filled
and the fuse thats missing has a heat marks indicating that the connections of the tangs are probably corroded,
thus making for a poor connection,
put a fuse the burned slot,
drop the Ce panel down,
see if there is voltage being transferred to each wire thats coming off the fuse tangs.
get a fuse relay chart and remove any fuse thats not supposed to be in the panel,
NOTE there should be some missing fuses extra fuses,
putting fuses into the empty slots can back feed power to systems that shouldnt have it.
Also the last fuse slot has a missing fuse, IIRC it should be filled
I'm sorry but I'm unfamiliar with some of the terminology your using. I looked at my cars year chart https://www.928gt.com/t-8384fuse.aspx but it doesn't explain what a "IIRC" is (chart indicates the last fuse is a rear euro fog light) and I don't know what your referring to when you say "drop the Ce panel down". What's a "Ce panel"
Again, thanks for the tip :-)
Last edited by Halflunar; 02-11-2013 at 07:44 PM. Reason: update
02-11-2013, 08:46 PM
#44
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burnout!
02-12-2013, 09:47 PM
#45
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Looks like you are making good progress.
Maybe change your title to something like 83 No Start since the starter now turns.
You never did say if you have manuals or diagrams so check these links for anything useful.
http://www.ligeti.com/928/
http://www.2010.cannell.co.uk/manual...s_porsche.html
Sorry I am no help but I am enjoying following along.
Keep up the good work ..........
.................... and .
............................ POST PICTURES !!!!!
Maybe change your title to something like 83 No Start since the starter now turns.
You never did say if you have manuals or diagrams so check these links for anything useful.
http://www.ligeti.com/928/
http://www.2010.cannell.co.uk/manual...s_porsche.html
Sorry I am no help but I am enjoying following along.
Keep up the good work ..........
.................... and .
............................ POST PICTURES !!!!!
Is there a way to load an AVI file? I could show ya'll the vehicle actually running! Woohoo!
Any way, I was able to allow the vehicle to start and warm up a bit today.
Odd though that I had to remove (What I think) is the mass flow air flapper/air cleaner assembly. I could get it to start with great difficulty with the MAS flow on but it was obviously so rich to be difficult as the rich smoke from the tailpipe was volumous.
WIth the MAS flow off it started and ran much better and leaner. I wonder if this is because I'm jumping the fuel injection relay as the relay is bad?