Bjbpe

This is in response to a few folks who commented on my Air Conditioner question yesterday. Some of you were not terribly concerned about using freon 12; some took the approach, common today, that the environment is super-duper sacrosanct, regardless of our understanding of it.

I'm 77 years old. Anybody on this list who is in their forties or less has had the environmental movement in their life all of their lives. As an old coot, I lived through the pre-environment times and had no problems with them; of course I didn't live around the great poluters like General Electric in upper New York. In my life in aerospace I was involved in a relatively minor cleanup of jet fuel spills during the eighties so I have a small idea of the corrective measures needed. They are not cheap but they are sometimes necessary. Sometimes they are ridiculous. That's my most positive side when it comes to the environment.

Some of you folks comment about removing your "cats" in the interest of performance improvement. So I can't imagine that everybody who views these words is an "environmentalist". I fully admit to having removed mine. Here in Wyoming we have more cattle, dear, antelope, horses and mountain lion than cars. I contend that the flatulence from all of these animals is probably far more destructive of our clean air than our few cars. So I don't really have a problem with removed cats or flatulence.

Now I enter into an area that affects us here in Wyoming; the east-cost environmentalists who have left New York and the other god forsaken cities to come here to show us how to live. We now have a wolf problem that did not exist fifteen years ago. We are limited in where we may go in our own national forests where there were no restrictions in the past. Ski areas here in Wyoming and Colorado have been denied any possibility of expansion because the wimps from New England don't know how to ski in real snow or couldn't care less. For you young folks, you have no idea how great it was back in the fifties when we didn't have to deal with all of this activism and how great it was to have cars that could be worked on by a shade tree mechanic rather than having to have a PhD in engineering. I only have an MS so I don't qualify.

I would enjoy your responses but, please, I don't need your criticism. Sorry for venting on this issue.

illini-heel

Hey, I used Aquanet in the 80's, so I'll be the last to criticize. I appreciate the cleaner air and landscape (I remember well the black smoke from all of cars in the 70's and the litter everywhere); but I don't like some activist telling me that I can't ride my dirtbike on my own property or that I can't buy a 32 oz. softdrink (gotta love NY).

928mac

Hi BJ, Nice to here from someone of your experience that is enjoying the 928.

I am 50, much younger I worked as a licensed GM flat rate for 18 years. We would use R12 to freeze the end of cams when installing new gears, yip blatant release.
I was also an avid hot-rodder in my younger days with big blocks bearly getting 6 miles/gal but I learned some tricks at the race track.

I just bought a R12 charge station with a full bottle of Dichlorodifluoromethane and have no problem using it wisely.

I am not a tree hugger but I try to do my part but not waiting electricity

Join us at 928oc.org for a smaller group

Brad

alabbasi

I would not consider using R12 as socially irresponsible as one can only use existing stock. Using R12 while knowing that you have a leak in your system is socially and fiscally irresponsible.

I would consider removing cats as a little irresponsible. Especially when considering that you can buy modern, free flowing cats that barely make a difference on performance.

I would not call myself an environmentalist, but I am a realist. A lot has changed since 1950 with the biggest change being that in 1950, the population was 150 million and we now have more then 300 million. I suspect that even though all power plants were fueled by coal and all cars had hulking v8's back in 1950, it's likely that the American of today consumes and pollutes far more then the American of 1950 (my suspicion) as so many things that we own are now disposable and manufactured abroad which means a whole pile of pollution took place before we even put our hands on them.

Can we afford to keep it up?

MainePorsche

Well said.

EspritS4s

The other thread didn't seem to diverge too far. There was some back and forth on the EPA and CFC politics in general, but I didn't see anyone recommend not using R12 in our 928s.

So, I'm confused about the purpose of this thread and its relevance to 928s.

linderpat

IBTM;

That said, this could get interesting. I am an easterner who lived the past 4 years in Montana. What the OP says has a lot of merit. It was like stepping back in time to live out there. Much less complicated, and less regulated (at least that's how it appeared to me). Obviously, the lack of dense population has a lot to do with this.
I think we go over the top worrying about the little bull**** things, when the really big stuff, like the real pollution in China, India and Russia go unmentioned. Take a look at the burbs of Niarobi in Kenya sometime to see what pollution really looks like. No cats on the cars over there, and that is just one mid-size city in a world full of them outside of the US. We are the cleanest country on earth, n/w/s the questionable statistics that some cite to the contrary.

Eplebnista

Wimps from New England know how to ski in real snow. Real snow is grey and you can bounce a quarter off of it. Good skiers can ski anywhere. Mediocre skiers stay in when it is "too" anything - too cloudy, too icy, too cold. No region has a monopoly on good skiers.

Your topic is worthy of discussion. However, like my reply, it has little or nothing to do with 928's other than a tangential relationship to the never to be resolved R134a/R12 debate.

Personally, I think that we should abandon the AC acronym and adopt another - PRDU - Porsche Refrigerant Dispersion Unit. I have looked at a few sharks in many months of looking for a car. None have had a PRDU that actually cooled the cabin.

LT Texan

As an environmentalist, I can't bring myself to put a cat on my 928. Just think of all the energy used and green house emissions created in manufacturing the product. And don't even get me going on the environmental impact of the mining of the metals necessary for its function.

So no cat for me!

As for Freon, I haven't had to top off my a/c since I recharged it years ago, so I am surely responsibly containing that disaster waiting to happen!

And for the environmental impact of the tremendous damage to our environment of manufacturing/buying a new car every couple years? Well, I think only building a car once and using it for 34 years is much more environmentally friendly. And 20+ miles to the gallon on the highway. Think about it!

So yes, I am a 928 owner and I'm an environmentalist.

tmpusfugit

I am not thinking we are the cleanest country in the world, not close IMO. Based on having been in a number of countries, Switzerland and New Zealand immediately come to mind as being apparently / observably more clean than the USA. That said, I clearly remember my first trip to Los Angles in 1973. I was there a week or more before I saw the surrounding mountains. The yellow haze, thought to be a primary result of auto pollution, was so dense/thick the mountains surrounding LA were invisible. More recently LA, in my very limited exposure, is less ozone/hydrocarbon polluted than in 1973 and it would mostly seem the changes in allowable auto emissions has had positive effects.

IMO, environmental rules are both necessary and useful. That said, some fair portion of what the EPA enforces is based on junk science and political power mongering, not sound research or thoughtful implementation of proven theory, nor practical application. A classic example of this has to do with the recent forced closing of older coal fired electrical plants, with no new plants being built, rather than continuing to clean up the emissions. And buying/selling carbon credits? Let’s don’t go there…..

As to Freon, my experience, in part, is in the field of computer manufacturing. We used Freon and certain derivatives in huge tanks of several thousand gallons on highly automated assembly lines exposed directly to the air...to clean thousands of circuit boards an hour.....day in and day out 24x7. It would seem that process dumped more Freon into the atmosphere than all the 928's ever built. However, it does seem both prudent and proper that we treat our environment with respect. That said, incremental steps such as banning R-12 is no more effective than putting band aids on gangrene. How is R-134, or R-22, or R-422, or any of the other subspecies of like materials more or less damaging than say R-12?

We in the general public don’t “know” how these really relate and those people who work in the field are suspect as to intent and accuracy as much of the so called research is a result of one industry or another funding a study, where they have a vested interest in the outcome to their favor, or people doing certain research in hopes of being granted more research dollars…and then toss in a few politicians who want to “guide” the process to their end goals…

mickster

"The Earth was here before us. The Earth will be here after us." Said on Earth Day 20 to a group of college students by a Native American...

Using existing stocks of R12-I have no issue-as long as it is done to a system without leaks as others have said.

I won't remove cats on my car-however-928s, by design, seem to be some of the lowest polluting cars out there--save for the fuel economy--which still rivals many cars on the highway today.

Keep these cars on the road is better than having them scrapped and a new car (and catalytic converter) produced.

One of our cars is a hybrid--and it sucks--they remapped the car to save battery life and killed MPG. If not for access to the Car Pool lane here in New York, we would get rid of it. When my wife begins taking the train to the city in the late fall/early winter, she gets my Subaru and I'll take the Hybrid to my job when I'm not driving the 928.

At the end of the day it is better to keep an old car going-even with the parts that get disposed of-than cycling through cars every few years. So a little R12 used responsibly? No issues.

And yes-China, Mexico, Russia-terrible, terrible air. My eyes burned in Mexico City. Even LA in the early 90's was easy to breathe by comparison.

S4ordie

It is a funny thing here in the U.S. you either are or are not a (fill in the blank... liberal, conservative, environmentalist, polluter, etc.). It is the culture and why things in most matters is very divisive. It is boring always listening to people who think they are right. If you take a moderate postion on anything you are pillared by those with strong edge opinions.

Bjbpe, like many but not all, times were better back in the "old days". For that you should be thankful you were born in the first half of the 20th Century. Frontiers were great when you could do anything you wanted, but when you were enjoying clean air in Wyoming, I grew up breathing the most polluted air in North America (South Central, East Los Angeles and later the San Gabriel Valley). What part of your behavior was any different than mine? What did you do to affect the air in Wyoming versus what I did? I suspect not much, perhaps you were polluting more than I. That there was no observable consequence to you does not mean it did not exist.

As tmpusfugit indicated during his visit to LA in 1973 the air quality was very poor. That he even saw the tallest visually relative mountains in North America (sea level to 10,000ft / 3,100m - The Rocky Mountain foothills start at 7,000 ft / 2,100m before they visually ascend) meant he was there when the air was cleaner than normal. The great polluters were a combination of cars/trucks and heavy industry. So too, people on this forum who resided along the Great Lakes and in the North East during the 1950s - 1980's can share terrible stories of how industry and individuals destroyed their lakes and lands. Ask folks in Vermont how happy they were when their forests were dying due to acid rain.

Because one lives in a sparsely populated region where the effects of pollution are not apparent is no reason not to be mindful of it. It is similar to the argument that it is okay to walk away from a mortgage responsibility because it only affects me and my credit. We know that is false logic as it is the rest of the mortgage holders and tax payers who pay for that decision. Additionally, abdicating good stewardship of the environment because others pollute more is of this same myopic narcissistic mindset.

I am not a rabid environmentalist, but having lived in places where pollution harmed not only the environment but also the people that lived there as well, I can tell you some measures were/are necessary and beneficial, not all, but many. I'm not a believer that humans are uniquely responsible for Global Warming but it is naive to think they do not have some measure of contribution. How much is mostly unknowable in my estimation, but to discount it totally is tantamount to saying the pollution problems of the past never existed, or that the ones of today are a figment of the imagination.

When it comes to the atmosphere most perceive it to be vast and stretching to space. The reality is different. Usable, breathable, air is at its maximum about 3 miles thick (3.2km - 4.8km), you can posture that the thickness of usable air is closer to only two miles as humans begin to have issues unless born and raised at high altitude. Next time you are in a place to see an object 2 - 3 miles distant remind yourself that is the extent vertically of useful breathable air. It is a paper thin wafer of air that lies around the Earth. Removing emissions equipment when there are ready supplies of after market components that represent very little to no decrease in performance does not make sense in many instances.

I do agree that keeping a well running and tuned car for a couple of decades pollutes far less than purchasing a new vushicle every few years. In many cases for those of us fortunate to have our 928's they are second, third, or more, cars for us so this logic does not apply. The now old adage "Think globally, act locally", still applies. I can't/don't live my life in the most environmentally responsible way. I understand this is true for most people. I do however think it shortsighted not to be mindful of one's effect in the world in terms of its environment and its people.

rgs944

Anyone that had the experiance of being around LA in the 80's understands the reason for pollution laws. With that said what works for CA is not a one size fits all. Too many of these laws have such a non impact for most of us that I do not have a problem with ignoring them. Good point about the resources it takes to build the cats. Cash for clunkers is another great example. How much pollution and wasted resources are needed to replace all those good cars that were crushed.

MGW-Fla

I may just have to add that quote to my profile!

Lots of good points here on both sides, by some obviously very intelligent people.

In my thoughts of the impact of removing the cats from my '85 928 & driving it a few hours a month, & the occasional DE or autocross, .... I consider the multitudes of clunkers I see every day out there blowing so much smoke that they look more like a mosquito fogging truck, & I can then put it more in perspective.

Here in Fla, they used to have auto inspections every year. Such a sham. One year my then seven year old 911 didn't pass, until I had Brumos Porsche look it over & they took it to the testing center & it passed no problems. They said they had done nothing to the car. Course I had to pay for two inspections! Yet, cars of a certain age were exempt from even having to be tested! You wanna guess how many of these were the mosquito foggers? And those were the ones that should of been tested. I heard that the owner of the company that did all of the testing for the state was a personal friend of the Governor at the time the program was implemented. What a joke! I'm all for doing our part in helping prevent pollution, but the govt has some interesting reasoning as to what should or should not be enforced.

I enjoy my "German Muscle Car". I removed my cats cause I like how it sounds when that big V-8 rumbles. It makes me smile. Anytime I get a thought that I should sell it cause I don't drive it much, I just get in it and crank it up, much less drive it! That smile comes to my face & I know I can't live without it. If I get more HP too then great. I doubt those old cats were very efficient anyways. I get comments at DEs & autocrosses when non 928ers hear my car rumble. They stop by just to tell me that. One of my DE instructors was a 944 driver. After a 20 min. session on the track, he told me how he started anticipating me coming out of the last turn onto the straightaway so he could hear my V8 roar. Anyone who's ever been to most any race of any kind knows the thrill of hearing the engines. I may not be the fastest, far from it, but man it sure sounds sweet to me.

If I have to put cats back on my car or add some current cats to save the planet, then we're all screwed. I also have to recharge my ac about every 18 mos., but at least its been converted to R134. I did get my wife a Hyundai Elantra last year for a daily driver(30mph city), so she wouldn't have to drive her 928 so much with the cost of premium gas going nuts at the time.

We here in the USA get blamed for so much, especially by our own, and sure we have had to change much in the past 30 yrs to correct problems with polluting. Yet seldom does anyone say squat about the rest of the world's industrial heavyweights and their horrendous amount of polluting that puts our worst to shame! And I'm sure none of theirs finds its way into the Jet Stream or Gulf Stream to effect anyone else as they thumb their noses at us.

I think I'll keep my cats off & keep on smiling when I drive my 928. I pay enough in my share of taxes to help fund the EPA to keep it all in check, I see the wisdom of their efforts every day on the news.

pdub

I know we all have to begin somewhere but for the amount of time my 928s on the road ( sadly very little) I say screw it and take off the cats and add an x pipe.
I recycle and plant trees instead