Extra intercooler tank in bumper
12-03-2011, 05:38 PM
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Extra intercooler tank in bumper
Hi Guys,
wondering if anyone has put an intercooler (air/water) tank in the rear bumper or if there is any reason not to do so.
I can fit a 4" square aluminium RHS x about 3 ft. into the bumper (cut around the towbar receiver) and connect up to the existing piping near the washer tank. This would add about 8 litres of cooling water to the system(about double)
The only considerations I can think of are:
1 Extra weight(10kg[22lb]) over the back of the car and
2 Any effect an extra 10kg might have on the 5 mph crash protection hydraulic dampers.
My gut feeling is that 10 kg is not enough to worry about- just wanted to access the brains trust before I started.
Murf intercooled supercharger in a 94 gts
Thanks
Ray
wondering if anyone has put an intercooler (air/water) tank in the rear bumper or if there is any reason not to do so.
I can fit a 4" square aluminium RHS x about 3 ft. into the bumper (cut around the towbar receiver) and connect up to the existing piping near the washer tank. This would add about 8 litres of cooling water to the system(about double)
The only considerations I can think of are:
1 Extra weight(10kg[22lb]) over the back of the car and
2 Any effect an extra 10kg might have on the 5 mph crash protection hydraulic dampers.
My gut feeling is that 10 kg is not enough to worry about- just wanted to access the brains trust before I started.
Murf intercooled supercharger in a 94 gts
Thanks
Ray
12-03-2011, 08:41 PM
#2
Installing an larger heat exchanger tank in the rear is my next project, I already have a Johnson cm90 pump in the rear. Our welder at work is almost finished with tank so maybe over Christmas break I will finish it all.
The weight over the rear and extra cooling is the goal
The weight over the rear and extra cooling is the goal
12-03-2011, 10:37 PM
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https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...n-weekend.html
Before doing it, I'd take some measurements of the water and intake air temperatures of your current system, to see if you think there would be any real benefit from installing a larger tank back there. Installing a big tank like that may end up being time and effort spent on something that ends up not really being needed.
If your current system isn't staying cool enough for your particular application and use, I'd try to improve the system that you have before putting in the bigger tank. Ducting the heat exchanger, or addiing a fan to it, might be all that you need, if anything.
Before doing it, I'd take some measurements of the water and intake air temperatures of your current system, to see if you think there would be any real benefit from installing a larger tank back there. Installing a big tank like that may end up being time and effort spent on something that ends up not really being needed.
If your current system isn't staying cool enough for your particular application and use, I'd try to improve the system that you have before putting in the bigger tank. Ducting the heat exchanger, or addiing a fan to it, might be all that you need, if anything.
12-03-2011, 11:01 PM
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To add to what Z said, back when the McLaren SLR was released, Renntech solved the heat soak issue of the intercooler by installing a slightly larger heat exchanger and larger water pump.
I would do that before trying to install a larger tank.
I would do that before trying to install a larger tank.
12-03-2011, 11:20 PM
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Hi Z,
My goal is to keep the intake air temp at cruise the same as if the supercharger was not installed, from limited trials that seems to be 15 C above ambient at 30 C.
At cruise my current setup adds 50 C into the intercooler and reduces 28 C in the intercooler, a net gain of 22 C over ambient.
I thought I could probably pick up that extra 7 C by doubling the heat soak capacity of the intercooler.
I have an adjustable thermostat control on the intercooler pump and an exit air temp gauge to keep track of inlet air temp.
I'm keen to keep inlet air temp as low as practical to avoid any problems.
At very brief boost say 6psi temp into IC rises by 73 C over ambient at 30 C and ic reduces temp by 43 C, a net gain of 30 C over ambient.
The IC tank will probably cost about $200 + hose and I expect it would take me a day to install and plumb.
Do you think it's worth doing ??
My goal is to keep the intake air temp at cruise the same as if the supercharger was not installed, from limited trials that seems to be 15 C above ambient at 30 C.
At cruise my current setup adds 50 C into the intercooler and reduces 28 C in the intercooler, a net gain of 22 C over ambient.
I thought I could probably pick up that extra 7 C by doubling the heat soak capacity of the intercooler.
I have an adjustable thermostat control on the intercooler pump and an exit air temp gauge to keep track of inlet air temp.
I'm keen to keep inlet air temp as low as practical to avoid any problems.
At very brief boost say 6psi temp into IC rises by 73 C over ambient at 30 C and ic reduces temp by 43 C, a net gain of 30 C over ambient.
The IC tank will probably cost about $200 + hose and I expect it would take me a day to install and plumb.
Do you think it's worth doing ??
12-03-2011, 11:30 PM
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Hi Hacker-Pschorr,
I dread having to remove the heat exchanger , it's tight in the grill + Large fan. As for the pump the original (Hella??) died and I replaced it with a Bosch PAD 12 - 0 392 023 004 (15litres/min) which I think is a higher flow rate than the original ??. I think it would be easier to remove the rear bumper cover than get to the IC heat exchanger.
I dread having to remove the heat exchanger , it's tight in the grill + Large fan. As for the pump the original (Hella??) died and I replaced it with a Bosch PAD 12 - 0 392 023 004 (15litres/min) which I think is a higher flow rate than the original ??. I think it would be easier to remove the rear bumper cover than get to the IC heat exchanger.
12-04-2011, 12:23 AM
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If your goal is to reduce the intake air temperature that you're seeing at a steady cruise, I don't think that the extra water capacity is going to help you much. It will take longer to heat up all of the additional water, but it will still pretty much get up to the same temperature that you're seeing now eventually, unless there's additional cooling done somehow somewhere in the system. Once any additional water is warm, it'll just take longer to cool it off too. The only way to keep the water from getting warm is to take steps to better remove heat from it, or to keep heat from getting into the system in the first place.
Some of the ways of better removing the heat would be the ducting or fan on the heat exchanger that I mentioned earlier, or using a larger or more efficient heat exchanger. One way of helping to keep unnecessary heat out can be accomplished by insulating the intercooler, so that it's not picking up underhood heat and transfering it to the water that's inside of it. When the hood is closed, it's pretty much right on top of the intercooler, so the stock foam hood pad probably insulates the top of the intercooler somewhat. The bottom and sides of the intercooler are exposed to underhood heat, and to some extent heat from the exhaust manifold on that side of the engine. That's heat that's being added to the water unnecessarily. Some of that heat is then being removed by the air passing through the intercooler. Basically the intercooler core is acting as a second heat exchanger when not under boost.
Insulating the intercooler would be the first thing that I'd do. If you want to keep the nice shiney intercooler visible when the hood is open, insulate just the sides and bottom of it. Next would probably be looking at the possibility of maybe adding some kind of ducting to the heat exchanger, so that more air might pass through it, instead of going around it.
Some of the ways of better removing the heat would be the ducting or fan on the heat exchanger that I mentioned earlier, or using a larger or more efficient heat exchanger. One way of helping to keep unnecessary heat out can be accomplished by insulating the intercooler, so that it's not picking up underhood heat and transfering it to the water that's inside of it. When the hood is closed, it's pretty much right on top of the intercooler, so the stock foam hood pad probably insulates the top of the intercooler somewhat. The bottom and sides of the intercooler are exposed to underhood heat, and to some extent heat from the exhaust manifold on that side of the engine. That's heat that's being added to the water unnecessarily. Some of that heat is then being removed by the air passing through the intercooler. Basically the intercooler core is acting as a second heat exchanger when not under boost.
Insulating the intercooler would be the first thing that I'd do. If you want to keep the nice shiney intercooler visible when the hood is open, insulate just the sides and bottom of it. Next would probably be looking at the possibility of maybe adding some kind of ducting to the heat exchanger, so that more air might pass through it, instead of going around it.
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12-04-2011, 04:03 AM
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Thanks for your thoughts,
I was hoping that the aluminium tank attached to the aluminium bumper might have some heat exchange effect, at the moment with 7.5 litres of IC coolant the heat exchanger seems to balance heat soak at about 23 C over ambient at 30 c. The engine bay temp(after 45 min) is 80 C at ambient 30 C.
I have already put 2 layers of thermotec aluminium/glass insulator completely around the intercooler. The engine temperature is pretty much on the edge of balance with the intercooler heat exchanger so I may not be able to rob coolant cooling for IC exchanger cooling, such as ducting to concentrate air flow. Fans probably only relate to city driving(my estimate - under 60 kmph)
from your advice that leaves the capacity/efficiency of the heat exchanger as about the only variable left to me. I will focus on this area. Thanks to all for their comments.
I was hoping that the aluminium tank attached to the aluminium bumper might have some heat exchange effect, at the moment with 7.5 litres of IC coolant the heat exchanger seems to balance heat soak at about 23 C over ambient at 30 c. The engine bay temp(after 45 min) is 80 C at ambient 30 C.
I have already put 2 layers of thermotec aluminium/glass insulator completely around the intercooler. The engine temperature is pretty much on the edge of balance with the intercooler heat exchanger so I may not be able to rob coolant cooling for IC exchanger cooling, such as ducting to concentrate air flow. Fans probably only relate to city driving(my estimate - under 60 kmph)
from your advice that leaves the capacity/efficiency of the heat exchanger as about the only variable left to me. I will focus on this area. Thanks to all for their comments.
12-04-2011, 06:00 AM
#10
Short of totally changing the intercooler setup the only thing I can do is help the cooler be as efficient as possible. I have insulated the underside of the intercooler, have a heat exchanger and fan in each fender and inlets to the front cover.
I have a Nordskog digital water temp gauge to monitor the cooler water temp. At normal cruise speeds temps with fans off will stay about 6 to 8 degrees over ambient, before I added the second heat exchanger/fans and inlets it was closer to 15 degrees. Fans on and in traffic temps stay about 10 degrees above ambient.
I have seen the temp rises as high as 120 degrees when the tank and cooler get heat soaked after sitting between passes.
The close proximity of the cooler to the engine and the reservoir to the engine compartment all add to the heat soak, moving the water tank to the rear and increasing it's capacity can't hurt.
If it don't help cooling it sure might help traction.
I have a Nordskog digital water temp gauge to monitor the cooler water temp. At normal cruise speeds temps with fans off will stay about 6 to 8 degrees over ambient, before I added the second heat exchanger/fans and inlets it was closer to 15 degrees. Fans on and in traffic temps stay about 10 degrees above ambient.
I have seen the temp rises as high as 120 degrees when the tank and cooler get heat soaked after sitting between passes.
The close proximity of the cooler to the engine and the reservoir to the engine compartment all add to the heat soak, moving the water tank to the rear and increasing it's capacity can't hurt.
If it don't help cooling it sure might help traction.
12-04-2011, 06:21 PM
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I have two heat exchangers on my car. One in each fender with ducting to allow air through.
It helped a lot, to keep the intake air from getting too hot.
It helped a lot, to keep the intake air from getting too hot.
12-04-2011, 08:23 PM
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I am considering a tank in the rear, one of my biggest concerns is putting 80 LBS at the extreme rear of the car and two feet off the ground.
That can not help it handle.
So I am back to possibly doing a tank under the front fenders.
What does any body think about using parts (lines, expansion valves,etc) from a rear AC unit to make a system to chill the intercooler fluid?
So you can chill the coolant during times you do not need max power.
I am sure Erik or some one else will point out the flaws in my thinking, and I hope they do if there are reasons why that is not a good idea.
I also plan to use the same fluid for ADI (water injection)
when I do get my supercharger installed.
This is 180 from what I thought when I did the blower on my Corvette, I wanted there to be no tanks to fill, just air to air intercooling, I now see the flaws in the air to air method.
From the data I have read going back to the research that was done in the 30's and 40's it seems the magic temp is 170F or less for the intake charge temps.
I think that is going to be a hard number to get to, and the only way I see of being able to do that is with very cold coolant for the intercooler and meth injection before the blower (twin Screw).
(Side note, back in the day of huge engines when HP was not a bragging right, but the difference between life and death in the sky, the amount of ADI (methanol/water/lubes) that they put through the big radials and V motors is staggering, along the lines of .4 LB of ADI fluid to every pound of fuel, that in conjunction with the extra boost they could safely run with out detonation was a huge amount of power)
This is one thing I am so hyped about getting the CarPuter from Hans, we will be able to collect a lot of data as far as temps, pressures, and flows.
I broke out my Miller Syncrowave 250 DX a few weeks ago and started in earnest to try to get really good at TIG welding very thin aluminum sheet, and alll I can say is that it is going to take a lot of seat time for me to get to the point that I am going to be able to brag about my skills.
At this point, it is safe to say I have no skills at AC TIG.
My guess is I am going to have to take some classes on it to get to the level I want to be at.
I have got to the point I can do ok on the edge of .030 3003 plate, but I still have a very long way to go.
That can not help it handle.
So I am back to possibly doing a tank under the front fenders.
What does any body think about using parts (lines, expansion valves,etc) from a rear AC unit to make a system to chill the intercooler fluid?
So you can chill the coolant during times you do not need max power.
I am sure Erik or some one else will point out the flaws in my thinking, and I hope they do if there are reasons why that is not a good idea.
I also plan to use the same fluid for ADI (water injection)
when I do get my supercharger installed.
This is 180 from what I thought when I did the blower on my Corvette, I wanted there to be no tanks to fill, just air to air intercooling, I now see the flaws in the air to air method.
From the data I have read going back to the research that was done in the 30's and 40's it seems the magic temp is 170F or less for the intake charge temps.
I think that is going to be a hard number to get to, and the only way I see of being able to do that is with very cold coolant for the intercooler and meth injection before the blower (twin Screw).
(Side note, back in the day of huge engines when HP was not a bragging right, but the difference between life and death in the sky, the amount of ADI (methanol/water/lubes) that they put through the big radials and V motors is staggering, along the lines of .4 LB of ADI fluid to every pound of fuel, that in conjunction with the extra boost they could safely run with out detonation was a huge amount of power)
This is one thing I am so hyped about getting the CarPuter from Hans, we will be able to collect a lot of data as far as temps, pressures, and flows.
I broke out my Miller Syncrowave 250 DX a few weeks ago and started in earnest to try to get really good at TIG welding very thin aluminum sheet, and alll I can say is that it is going to take a lot of seat time for me to get to the point that I am going to be able to brag about my skills.
At this point, it is safe to say I have no skills at AC TIG.
My guess is I am going to have to take some classes on it to get to the level I want to be at.
I have got to the point I can do ok on the edge of .030 3003 plate, but I still have a very long way to go.
12-04-2011, 09:08 PM
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What does any body think about using parts (lines, expansion valves,etc) from a rear AC unit to make a system to chill the intercooler fluid?
So you can chill the coolant during times you do not need max power.
I am sure Erik or some one else will point out the flaws in my thinking, and I hope they do if there are reasons why that is not a good idea.
I..................
From the data I have read going back to the research that was done in the 30's and 40's it seems the magic temp is 170F or less for the intake charge temps.
I think that is going to be a hard number to get to, and the only way I see of being able to do that is with very cold coolant for the intercooler and meth injection before the blower (twin Screw).
(Side note, back in the day of huge engines when HP was not a bragging right, but the difference between life and death in the sky, the amount of ADI (methanol/water/lubes) that they put through the big radials and V motors is staggering, along the lines of .4 LB of ADI fluid to every pound of fuel, that in conjunction with the extra boost they could safely run with out detonation was a huge amount of power)
This is one thing I am so hyped about getting the CarPuter from Hans, we will be able to collect a lot of data as far as temps, pressures, and flows.
.
So you can chill the coolant during times you do not need max power.
I am sure Erik or some one else will point out the flaws in my thinking, and I hope they do if there are reasons why that is not a good idea.
I..................
From the data I have read going back to the research that was done in the 30's and 40's it seems the magic temp is 170F or less for the intake charge temps.
I think that is going to be a hard number to get to, and the only way I see of being able to do that is with very cold coolant for the intercooler and meth injection before the blower (twin Screw).
(Side note, back in the day of huge engines when HP was not a bragging right, but the difference between life and death in the sky, the amount of ADI (methanol/water/lubes) that they put through the big radials and V motors is staggering, along the lines of .4 LB of ADI fluid to every pound of fuel, that in conjunction with the extra boost they could safely run with out detonation was a huge amount of power)
This is one thing I am so hyped about getting the CarPuter from Hans, we will be able to collect a lot of data as far as temps, pressures, and flows.
.
The water injection before the TS does drop the temp at that point of injection but the gains arent realized all the way to the intake port of the cylinder... ive got mine wired with K-type thermocouples and the output goes into the Innovate Aux box where its datalogged and displayed in logworks on a "dashboard" on my laptop...so it can be done.
I may build a small tank in the spare tire well that can be easily removed/added with an opening big enough to drop ice in when i want at the dragstrip..have a small T valve so i can turn it on/off between runs. Overkill and a bit of work, but i know it would drastically reduce charge temps when needed.
12-04-2011, 09:47 PM
#15
I may build a small tank in the spare tire well that can be easily removed/added with an opening big enough to drop ice in when i want at the dragstrip..have a small T valve so i can turn it on/off between runs. Overkill and a bit of work, but i know it would drastically reduce charge temps when needed.
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...all/index.html