david_alford

Searching for my first 928. Looking at '80-'84 models. Might sound familiar because I posted a question about cracked dashboards last week.

I test drove 3 928s last week, one '83 and two '82s. All were auto trans and mileage on all was under 80k (but one '82 had broken odo). The 1983 drove best of the bunch. It's interior is slightly rougher than the other two, but just hard leather and 1 crack on pod, 1 crack on dash - crack runs all the way up and down, one in center of pod and one in center of dash. Car drove very smooth on Interstate. No rattles, vibrations of any kind. Nice solid ride. Had a PPI done at the Porsche dealer in Eaton, NJ. At first I was kind of shocked when they rattled off $10k in suggested repairs but then again it is nearly a 30 year old car. The PPI revealed the following: oil pan crushed and leaking. Leaking head gasket(s). Trans leaking fluid and shifting rough. Also part of rear exhaust section crushed (but not so worried about that). When I looked under car after I test drove, I did see seepage on trans and oil pan, but it was just a little grimey. No actual drips coming out.

The car is selling on consignment at a Porsche specialist and here is their side of the story: They told me about seepage on oil pan and trans during test drive. However, they did not find any issues with head gaskets as the dealer did. Their opinion was the damage to oil pan is superficial. Also, they disagree with the dealer's PPI saying the trans is supposed to shift this way and the dealer does not know the older cars well enough to judge. When the trans upshifts there is no "clutch" feel or transition between gears. It upshifts very firmly, or maybe agressively is a better word. There is no jolt or bump when upshifting, just not what I'm used to with other auto trans.

Can you guys help me read between the lines? Any opinions on how the 4 spd auto should shift on a '83? Head gasket thing is worrisome because if I remember correctly, it is an expensive fix like $5k or so (?) Asking price of the 1983 is under $8k but dealer said it was a $3k-$4k car. A/C, heat and auto temp control work perfectly on the car as do all other power accessories. Like I mentioned it drives really well, much better than two 1982's that were supposed to be 'creampuff'. Also the '82s are priced higher around $11k.

Regards,

David

david_alford

forgot to mention about the '83....

not a ding or scratch on exterior and no overspray. Hatch and hood shocks are good. TB, WP and Ignition wires, caps, rotors, coils done in last two years. Also something having to do with steering was replaced but I can't remember what.

Both the dealer and the specialist shop are very professional and courteous. Good experience with both, but confused!!!

danglerb

Its hard to pick a place to start in. Dealership may not have worked on a 928 in years, and its pretty much the last place I would take a 928. Consignment lot two steps below the stealership for getting good advice about condition.

None of the cars sound that promising to me. My prime rule of 928 buying, NOBODY willingly sells a nice 928, which means 95% of the 928's on the market you should walk away from and keep looking for the 1 in 20 that is nice. Don't make the mistake of comparing half of dozen of the other 19 and choosing the best of generally average condition cars.

Find a shop expert in the 928, don't buy anything they don't say is NICE.

77tony

David, PM sent. 77Tony

SanDiego928

You need to drive a decent 5 speed before choosing also. I believe them to be 2 different experiences; have not driven an auto - but in the country or mountains I think there would be a big difference in fun factor. Food for thought. Freeway driving you get to hold something and move it around sometimes also. Feels familiar.

Last year I picked up my 928 for 3k and has needed relatively small amount of parts ($150) and my labor (160+ hours of cleaning and sorting things out). Had a parts car for some interior items. Point is, I was sooooo lucky because I knew nothing about these cars, especially Porsche's (this car could easily been a disaster) and these cars can be had in great condition for good prices compared to other similar cars I have learned.

Spend the time to look for a good one. 8k to 10k gets you NICE and up to date maintained 928 in those years with a 5 speed. My opinion though cause I'm new at this and still learning every day about these cars. Tomorrow I am cruising the local mountains with my gf all day in my 928. I can't even sleep just thinking about it.

I have no advice on your present situation but it sounds like you should keep looking for awhile especially if you can afford to spend 8k or more.

NoVector

Hi David -
My $.02:

- Be skeptical of “low millage” cars from the early 80’s as most have a broken odometer gear. The millage should jibe with seat wear, rubber on the gas pedal, etc.

- For the inside of the car, if you want to restore the car (or at least get it to a presentable condition), a recovered dash/pod = $1K, front seat leather = $1.3K, carpet = $400-$600, etc. It sucks as it’s easy to dump $10K into one of these cars and still only have a $4K car.

- For the PPI, when they quoted $10K in repairs, I’m guessing they also included labor; which in NJ could be $130 an hour(?) And, dealers make their money on parts.

- For the crushed pans, sounds like it’s been bottomed out or the ride height is low and they drove the oil pan over some curbs. Used pans are cheap on ebay and it sounds like the weeping gasket would need to be changed anyway.

- Head gasket is NOT good. As it was only a PPI, they must have seen white smoke, water in the oil (chocolate) or oil in the radiator overflow. If you did the heads yourself, it can be done with the engine in the car and a gasket set is ~$400. Plus a couple hundred on “while you’re in there” stuff. Or, it could take you down the rabbit hole of a cracked cylinder, cracked head, etc. Personally, if you could confirm what the Porsche dealer saw, I would run away from that car.

- I'm guessing you plan on changing the exhaust as you don't seem to mind the crushed muffler. If it would affect a vehicle inspection, you might want to look at the cost of a replacement muffler--they're not cheap (although 928 Intl is having a 1/2 price used part sale!!)

- I saw seepage on probably 10 928s that I looked at while I was shopping. Not saying it’s an expectation, only that it’s not uncommon.

- The transmission shift “firmness” can be (easily) adjusted; you can search that here on Renlist—assuming that’s all it is. I’m wondering if the fluid might have been a little low as it doesn’t take much for them to shift weired when it’s low. Not that the MB transmissions are bullet proof, but they're pretty tough.

- Those prices seem insane to me; $8K to $11K. Similar condition 928s all day long on ebay/craigslist for $2-$4K. $11K for an early ‘80s 928 should be pristine condition—like the brown one that just sold in California. For $8K you can buy an S4.

Personally, I recommend continuing the search--time is on your side, not the sellers.

dr bob

Don't ignore the resources you have nearby. Several very knowledgeable and helpful listers live near you. For beer and pizza moneys (or less...) you could have the car looked at by some very experienced eyes. And possibly driven by those with sensitive and 928-experienced butts.

My rule-of-thumb is that any car I look at needs $10k in parts to bring it up to safe-driving condition. Belts, hoses, seals, service parts, brakes, cooling system, intake refresh, suspension bits. If it has a verified recent service that included replacing some of those parts, I can deduct the cost of those parts. That's no cosmetic repairs or replacements, just mechanicals. Head gasket is not in that list. All this is to bring the value/cost numbers closer to reality when comparing 928's with other newer used cars that cost less to bring back to safe/reliable driver condition.

-----

Most 30 year old cars you look at will deserve some engine and driveline cleaning. It will help identify what things are leaking and what is just "seepage". I have no patience for either, but the point is that 30 years of accumulated film and crud doesn't mean a lot without some perspective.

------

In today's market, the Porsche dealer is closer correct when they say that the current market for early 80's used 928's is in the few-$thousands range. An exceptional car might sell for the higher asking price, but would have great cosmetics and a sizeable chunk of the $10k first-year parts cost lump already taken care of prior to purchase. That said, particular cars can be exceptions. Enlist the aid of your local Rennlisters to help you decide if your candidate is that 'particular' car that is the exception.

Landseer

I love the 16V cars, including automatics, will be great for your area (928 manual is PITA in NJ traffic)
$8 seems a bit highside, as described. If highly maintained (on items below/recpts) and orig paint, it would be ok though.
Post pictures if you can. Pictures of the underside would be great if you happened to take any.
4 speed shifting can feel abrupt; can be adjusted for preference but sounds good.
Tracking / driving / handling is generally terrible as parts wear, so you might be ok there.

HG leaks? Is it water or oil they saw? Lots of times there are oil leaks that look like HG oil leaks but aren't! My experience with 5 of these 16 V cars is that the oil leaks from the front of the engine, up high, where the cam gear rear guards mount to the block. There are a couple of thick O-rings under there that cause oil to trail down the front, then turn and run along the edge of the head/block interface. Looks like oil leaking from the head, but it isn't. Only way to see, drivers side, is removing the alternator and looking straight up. These Orings get fixed when doing cam seals. Can be done without complete timing belt job, or can be done during it. Full cam seal parts are something like $70 including the silicon seals for sealing the firewall-facing rear cam plates. Simple.

Any one of these 16V cars I bring home get, minimum 4 "campaigns".
1. Engine intake rubber refresh and fuel lnes and sensors (temp II and thermotime). If it runs good I don't send injectors off for cleaning.
2. Timing belt, tracking parts & gears, water pump, hoses, cam seals*
3. Underneath, steering U-joint, rack boots, tie rod ends, motor mounts and oil pan gasket (used pan should be avail) which requires front suspension removal.
4. Electrical ground review / clean; panel removal / clean; re-fuse with new german fuses not buss; a set of key relays - replace fuel injection relay and fuel pump relay at minimum, special not generic for 83 btw.

(If not running, they get gas tank dropped and rinsed, new strainer, feed line, fuel pump and filter.)

Rear axle boots generally need to be replaced, too, messy job if you clean them right and repack, but cheap parts.

Trans gets new hoses, pan gasket, shift kit ($15) to ensure firm 2-3 shift.

Parts for this type of work are around $3K to $4K. (Water pump / Laso, new, plastic impellor. MM's / Volvo V8 from Roger --- otherwise add $1500 if you opt for Porsche new). I'd never have the work done at a dealer unless I had very, very strong relationship connection with them both at mgmt and shop tech level. Otherwise, I'd only use a 928 enthusiast /specialist or DIY.

Of everything you stated the HG leaking would be where I'd want more clarification of what exactly they saw. Like Stan Mr. Merlin has said recently, if you see antifreeze crusty seepage, better to replace. Engine needs to be pulled on early car HG replacement else manipulated in the engine compartment so the long bolts can be removed. I haven't replaced HG's myself, but its always lurking in my mind that they could fail and hydrolock the car. I've learned to live with it. And am not slamming the cars around, just driving normally, so am less worried.

yardpro

i agree that the prices you are talking about are VERY high...

i got pretty well sorted out s4 for $7K...

there is a SWEET 89 guards red s4 in great shape here for sale for $12K...
I am going to look at it this week.... i might have a second one in the garage.

sweet928

What your describing seems overpriced. @8k should not have any cracks or tears inside at all. Should not have any gasket problems at all. Should need almost nothing. There's an 82 on here that sounds like what your describing for 3k right now. The blue one, also auto. I think it's in NC.

sweet928

PS. Get a 5 speed. Night and day.

dcrasta

I say run from all 3 of those cars.

If the nicest one had a possible head gasket problem and its not less than 4k someone is trying to take you for a ride. Try to find one a little more mechanically sound.
[But I'm with you, and a sucker for good paint.. the mechanical stuff if you have the time can be easier (For me) than paint and body by far..]

Some of the best advice I've heard was to get the best under 10k car you can, because at the end of the day, no matter how much $$ you spend you will still end up with a 10k car.

Ilike928

Need more info. on the following items as they are the potential "big ticket" items.

1) Headgasket. Need to know how did dealer diagnose that? Lots of ways to do it, some are obvious such as oil in coolant/coolant in oil. Others methods can be "inferred" from a mechanic and may not be an accurate diagnosis. So you nee to confirm whether it has a head gasket issue. That is #1 priority IMO

2) Trans shifting. My 82 Auto is very smooth and has more miles. This item is worth looking into further as it is of course an expensive fix if there is a problem.

Also I totally support the wisdom of the posters above. These guys know what they are talking about! f.e. :

a) Big difference in driving experience between a 5 speeed and auto (I own both). Both are a good experience, but quite different IMO.

b) Be very skeptical of so-called low mileage cars. There is a multi-thousand dollar incentive for people to mess with the odometer. It happens a lot from shady dealerships for example. I go much more by condition of the car than what the odometer says. Now if you find a one owner car with documented maintenace that shows work done along the way and mileage is shown in those receipts, you can be pretty sure the mileage is real. But don't take it at face value without such documentation.

c) Price seems high. Hard to evaluate without seeing it and more detail, but the 3500-4500 range seems more realistic.

I would suggest enlisting some help from a local 928 enthusiast. Many experienced people can tell you a lot simply by driving the car. I'm no expert on 928s, but I've had over 500 cars over the years and I can diagnose most issues (past accidents, mechanical issues, etc.) with a simple walk around, check under the hood before and after the road test, and the road test. Finding a local 928 enthusiast could help a lot IMO. Besides 928 owners love to play around and look at/talk about 928s!

david_alford

Thanks to all, if or when I find another OB in NY/NJ I will reach out and hopefully one of you seasoned professionals can help me evaluate the shark!

SanDiego928

You are very smart