1990 928 S4 **possible purchase**
01-01-2011, 08:17 PM
#1
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1990 928 S4 **possible purchase**
Hello,
I'm kinda new here. I'm going to look at a '90 928 S4 on Monday. Car has zero maintenance records. Has a good carfax with just under 53,000 miles.
Any "ballpark figures" on what a 60K mile service with new belts and waterpump rebuild at a Porsche dealership runs these days? Last time I paid for a major was in 2002 and it was on a Porsche 968. ($1,219)
Thanks.
I'm kinda new here. I'm going to look at a '90 928 S4 on Monday. Car has zero maintenance records. Has a good carfax with just under 53,000 miles.
Any "ballpark figures" on what a 60K mile service with new belts and waterpump rebuild at a Porsche dealership runs these days? Last time I paid for a major was in 2002 and it was on a Porsche 968. ($1,219)
Thanks.
01-01-2011, 08:30 PM
#2
Nordschleife Master
I'd take it to an independent 928-familiar shop, not a dealership.
The dealerships generally don't have 928-trained techs anymore.. and they'll put the lowest most-recently qualified guy on a 928.
Also, don't buy without a Pre Purchase Inspection that includes checking the crank end-play to make sure the thrust bearing is intact. If the end-play is out of wear spec then the car's price just went up by $10k (you're paying someone to do the engine swap with a warrantied used engine).
The dealerships generally don't have 928-trained techs anymore.. and they'll put the lowest most-recently qualified guy on a 928.
Also, don't buy without a Pre Purchase Inspection that includes checking the crank end-play to make sure the thrust bearing is intact. If the end-play is out of wear spec then the car's price just went up by $10k (you're paying someone to do the engine swap with a warrantied used engine).
01-01-2011, 08:43 PM
#3
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Take it to someone who has extensive experience working on 928s - not just any Porsche. If your dealership still has someone around from the 928 hey days, then you are OK. But if they don't, you should definitely find a specialist. The latter usually charge less.
Some dealers give you 10% parts and labor discount, if you are a Porsche club or 928 club member.
Some dealers give you 10% parts and labor discount, if you are a Porsche club or 928 club member.
01-01-2011, 09:11 PM
#4
Race Car
Give us some more details as to location. Illinois is a big state. There is bound to be someone nearby who knows where to get a pre-purchase inspection. Also give us some more details on the car.
A 53K car can cost as much or more than a 153K car if the maintenance is not done or not correct.
Figure anywhere from $1200-3000 for just the timing belt & waterpump at a good shop. $3K would be a dealer at the low-end of the price sphere. Figure up to $3.5K at a dealer ($800 for Waterpump, $250 for belt; $300-500 for additional parts; $2400 in labor because they charge up to $150/hour and will make it into a 2 day affair because they either don't know or don't care).
A 53K car can cost as much or more than a 153K car if the maintenance is not done or not correct.
Figure anywhere from $1200-3000 for just the timing belt & waterpump at a good shop. $3K would be a dealer at the low-end of the price sphere. Figure up to $3.5K at a dealer ($800 for Waterpump, $250 for belt; $300-500 for additional parts; $2400 in labor because they charge up to $150/hour and will make it into a 2 day affair because they either don't know or don't care).
01-01-2011, 09:17 PM
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Last but not least.... no rebuilt water pumps. No. Rebuilt. Water pumps.
Either a new Laso, an Ed Stanke upgrade of a pump core, or a new Porsche pump ($1300.)
Either a new Laso, an Ed Stanke upgrade of a pump core, or a new Porsche pump ($1300.)
01-01-2011, 09:19 PM
#6
Nordschleife Master
My local dealer has not one but TWO factory trained 928 guys on staff and STILL wouldn't take my car to them! They NEVER work on them...they don't see enough of them or follow ANYTHING on any of the forums about 928's to have a CLUE what to look for or how to fix for less than the book. In fact they will charge you book rates on jobs and even at that they do so few of them they will probably go over on time. My independent guy owns and S4 auto and an '85 5spd, so needless to say he is VERY familiar with the 928! Not to mention he works on most of them that live in town too so he sees them regularly.
Also, my local dealer does not charge $150/hour but still $2500 for a T-belt/H2O pump job from them is about right. $1200 from my local guy! Though if the water pump looks good and is not leaking I probably wouldn't replace it these days...that is kind of the consensus here as of late. If the pump looks good and is performing well catch it with the next T-belt... I have had new water pumps put in that leaked right out of the shoot and had to be changed right away. What PITA, and the pump we took out seemed FINE anyway, so in retrospect we should have left it alone...that is what I do now!
Also, my local dealer does not charge $150/hour but still $2500 for a T-belt/H2O pump job from them is about right. $1200 from my local guy! Though if the water pump looks good and is not leaking I probably wouldn't replace it these days...that is kind of the consensus here as of late. If the pump looks good and is performing well catch it with the next T-belt... I have had new water pumps put in that leaked right out of the shoot and had to be changed right away. What PITA, and the pump we took out seemed FINE anyway, so in retrospect we should have left it alone...that is what I do now!
01-01-2011, 09:21 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
Its a reasonably major job.
Not a simple belt swap.
Two days is typical, maybe longer to repair the neglect and do a few additional maintenance steps. Cleaning should be performed.
Expect the unexpected, too, on a 20+ year old car.
Not a simple belt swap.
Two days is typical, maybe longer to repair the neglect and do a few additional maintenance steps. Cleaning should be performed.
Expect the unexpected, too, on a 20+ year old car.
Last edited by Landseer; 01-01-2011 at 09:42 PM.
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01-02-2011, 06:51 AM
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Give us some more details as to location. Illinois is a big state. There is bound to be someone nearby who knows where to get a pre-purchase inspection. Also give us some more details on the car.
A 53K car can cost as much or more than a 153K car if the maintenance is not done or not correct.
Figure anywhere from $1200-3000 for just the timing belt & waterpump at a good shop. $3K would be a dealer at the low-end of the price sphere. Figure up to $3.5K at a dealer ($800 for Waterpump, $250 for belt; $300-500 for additional parts; $2400 in labor because they charge up to $150/hour and will make it into a 2 day affair because they either don't know or don't care).
A 53K car can cost as much or more than a 153K car if the maintenance is not done or not correct.
Figure anywhere from $1200-3000 for just the timing belt & waterpump at a good shop. $3K would be a dealer at the low-end of the price sphere. Figure up to $3.5K at a dealer ($800 for Waterpump, $250 for belt; $300-500 for additional parts; $2400 in labor because they charge up to $150/hour and will make it into a 2 day affair because they either don't know or don't care).
01-02-2011, 08:48 AM
#9
Nordschleife Master
The mileage if the carfax has plenty of supporting mileage entries, many have very few, does add to the price, but the notion that a normal 60k service is what its going to need should be tossed out the window immediately. This is a 21 year old Porsche, and should have had that 60k mile/5 year service 4 times by now, and the real required service could easily exceed the purchase price.
Leave your wallet at home until a 928 specialist has looked it over.
Leave your wallet at home until a 928 specialist has looked it over.
01-02-2011, 08:54 AM
#10
1. Pre Purchase Inspection is a must by some one who knows 928 or more specifically someone who knows the S4 models, especially as it has no records. (I purchase my car without records but I had a PPI by a specalist Porsche mechanic).
2. If you are an experienced DIYer then things will be cheaper to maintain the vehicle. If not then as recommended find a specalists mechanic experience with 928S4s. I have never been to a Official Porsche Centre in over 10 year of ownership non have I ever been to an OPC with any of my Porsches.
3. As few items that need to be inspected on the autos after and including MY 1987, especially the crankshaft end play and forward flexplate migration putting excessive forward preload on crankshaft thrust bearing. If all is ok then recommend fit a PKlamp on forward flexplate clamp or a super clamp. If the crankshaft end play excees the specifications walk away from the car as it may need a new block as they currently unrepairable.
4. Camshaft Timing Belt is time or miles dependent on change out (4 year or 60,000 klm which ever occurs first IIRC) and also a change of idler pulleys and water pump etc WYAIT the first time with no records). Other members have given you ball park figures on the cost of a TB change, however, it will depend on what else you have done WYAIT.
5. As no records the you would also require a cambelt tensioner overhaul. (Kit available).
6. A full diagnostic analysis via the Diagnostic Plug by Bosch Hammer, JDS Spanner or Theo's DT928 tester is highly recommended. This will test all the major sensors and computers and give a fault readout and let you generally know how the major systems are operating including the ABS and airbags if fitted.
7. From MY 1990 all cars are fitted with a PSD (a computer controlled diff lock) which need to serviced and the brake fluid changed. This can be done with a Bosch Hammer of the DT929. This item is usually neglected as it is located behind the LHS rear wheel behind a cover in the rear fender. There is also a couple of procedures to do this service manually.
8. The 928 need the electric maintained to a high standard and in some cases they are usually neglected and they do not like water ingress. Two main areas to inspect the 14 pin plug on the RHS of the engine bay that has an emergency connection for jump starting and the Central Electrical Panel located in the passenger footwell behind a wooden cover. There should be a cover over this plug.
9. Has the car been garaged or left in the open, re 8 and if it has been left in the open then there could also be some corrosion. The car is mainly galvanised steel construction with front fenders, doors and engine bonnet made of aluminium. There are some areas of rust that should be looked for, such as rear quarter windows and also where the rear view mirrors are mounted on the doors (Aluminium Oxide corrosion) and also underneath where there is any breakdown of the rust/sound proofing.
10. The HVAC system is relatively simple, however, the vacuum operated controllers diaphragms suffer failure. Diaphragms are available, so you need the HVAC system fully checked out. The MY 1990 was charged with freon R12, but can be converted to R134a. They are also prone to vacuum leaks as the rubber spiders perish with time and heat.
10. The 1990 models and earlier modles of the S4 and GTs are fitted with cooling vent flaps that can be problamatic, however, many are still connected and working well, but Porshe discontinued them on later models.
11. The RDK wheel pressure system is fitted which monitors the tyre pressure in each wheel. Many owner have these disconnected, however, if set up correctly they operate quite efficiently.
12. As no records all fluids should be changed ASAP.
13. Wheel alignment need to be done at wheel alignment establishment expert in 928 as the car should not be lifted to do a wheel alignment. If the alignment is not correct then tyres won't last long.
14. Ride height can also be a problem especially if the body has been set lower than the specifications, as you will find the the front will continually hit the gutters.
15. PPI requires the subframes to be inspected for incorrect jacking or lifting. Car should only be lifted at the designated lifting points.
16. The fuel piping system need to be fully inspected for cracking especially the polomide (plastic) pipes joining the steel pipes to the fuel rails and the pressure regulators etc. Change out fuel pipe set can be obtained from on of the big 3 suppliers that are sponsers on the 928 forum.
17. All the information you need is contained in this forum, so the search function will be your greatest friend with your 928 ownership. It is recommended that you read the FAQ post at the start of this forum and the members of this forum will be a great help personally and with advice, however, don't forget to express your thanks for help and also advise the member of the outcomes from their advice.
18. Don't be put off with the above, because if you get a good 928 you will not be sorry. There are also resident experts on this forum as well as excellent site sponsors and part suppliers and the 928 is a blast to drive especially to move quickly from point to point when cruising.
19. Also do a quick check of the crank connection for the headlight as the arm is held in positon by "E" clips that have been known to fall off and the crank arm can go through the A/C condenser.
Tails 1990 928S4 Auto
2. If you are an experienced DIYer then things will be cheaper to maintain the vehicle. If not then as recommended find a specalists mechanic experience with 928S4s. I have never been to a Official Porsche Centre in over 10 year of ownership non have I ever been to an OPC with any of my Porsches.
3. As few items that need to be inspected on the autos after and including MY 1987, especially the crankshaft end play and forward flexplate migration putting excessive forward preload on crankshaft thrust bearing. If all is ok then recommend fit a PKlamp on forward flexplate clamp or a super clamp. If the crankshaft end play excees the specifications walk away from the car as it may need a new block as they currently unrepairable.
4. Camshaft Timing Belt is time or miles dependent on change out (4 year or 60,000 klm which ever occurs first IIRC) and also a change of idler pulleys and water pump etc WYAIT the first time with no records). Other members have given you ball park figures on the cost of a TB change, however, it will depend on what else you have done WYAIT.
5. As no records the you would also require a cambelt tensioner overhaul. (Kit available).
6. A full diagnostic analysis via the Diagnostic Plug by Bosch Hammer, JDS Spanner or Theo's DT928 tester is highly recommended. This will test all the major sensors and computers and give a fault readout and let you generally know how the major systems are operating including the ABS and airbags if fitted.
7. From MY 1990 all cars are fitted with a PSD (a computer controlled diff lock) which need to serviced and the brake fluid changed. This can be done with a Bosch Hammer of the DT929. This item is usually neglected as it is located behind the LHS rear wheel behind a cover in the rear fender. There is also a couple of procedures to do this service manually.
8. The 928 need the electric maintained to a high standard and in some cases they are usually neglected and they do not like water ingress. Two main areas to inspect the 14 pin plug on the RHS of the engine bay that has an emergency connection for jump starting and the Central Electrical Panel located in the passenger footwell behind a wooden cover. There should be a cover over this plug.
9. Has the car been garaged or left in the open, re 8 and if it has been left in the open then there could also be some corrosion. The car is mainly galvanised steel construction with front fenders, doors and engine bonnet made of aluminium. There are some areas of rust that should be looked for, such as rear quarter windows and also where the rear view mirrors are mounted on the doors (Aluminium Oxide corrosion) and also underneath where there is any breakdown of the rust/sound proofing.
10. The HVAC system is relatively simple, however, the vacuum operated controllers diaphragms suffer failure. Diaphragms are available, so you need the HVAC system fully checked out. The MY 1990 was charged with freon R12, but can be converted to R134a. They are also prone to vacuum leaks as the rubber spiders perish with time and heat.
10. The 1990 models and earlier modles of the S4 and GTs are fitted with cooling vent flaps that can be problamatic, however, many are still connected and working well, but Porshe discontinued them on later models.
11. The RDK wheel pressure system is fitted which monitors the tyre pressure in each wheel. Many owner have these disconnected, however, if set up correctly they operate quite efficiently.
12. As no records all fluids should be changed ASAP.
13. Wheel alignment need to be done at wheel alignment establishment expert in 928 as the car should not be lifted to do a wheel alignment. If the alignment is not correct then tyres won't last long.
14. Ride height can also be a problem especially if the body has been set lower than the specifications, as you will find the the front will continually hit the gutters.
15. PPI requires the subframes to be inspected for incorrect jacking or lifting. Car should only be lifted at the designated lifting points.
16. The fuel piping system need to be fully inspected for cracking especially the polomide (plastic) pipes joining the steel pipes to the fuel rails and the pressure regulators etc. Change out fuel pipe set can be obtained from on of the big 3 suppliers that are sponsers on the 928 forum.
17. All the information you need is contained in this forum, so the search function will be your greatest friend with your 928 ownership. It is recommended that you read the FAQ post at the start of this forum and the members of this forum will be a great help personally and with advice, however, don't forget to express your thanks for help and also advise the member of the outcomes from their advice.
18. Don't be put off with the above, because if you get a good 928 you will not be sorry. There are also resident experts on this forum as well as excellent site sponsors and part suppliers and the 928 is a blast to drive especially to move quickly from point to point when cruising.
19. Also do a quick check of the crank connection for the headlight as the arm is held in positon by "E" clips that have been known to fall off and the crank arm can go through the A/C condenser.
Tails 1990 928S4 Auto
01-02-2011, 12:02 PM
#11
Race Car
Car is located in Highland Park (Chicago) Illinois. Don't have a lot of details except it's a 3 owner car originally from Wisconsin. Next two owners in Chicago. It was traded in on a new Hyundai (?!?!) and is priced @ $11,987 which seems a bit on the low end. Again, zero maintenance records. Porsche dealership located near by (The Porsche Exchange)
In actual dollars (trade in against purchase) the dealer paid about $4000-6000. The car could easily need $8000 retail work, $4-5000 in parts if you are a DIYer.
Read the first time here info at the top of the forum. Listen and learn to the advice here--get a PPI and buy with your head not your heart. Learn from our experience and from our mistakes.
It is possible this car was well cared for...but the fact it was traded in on a Hyundai probably indicates someone bought it and thought they were getting a cheap Porsche for a daily driver. Doubtful, but see if the dealership can get in touch with the previous owner. You'd be surprised what they can tell you including what the trade in value was and how long and what they did to the car.
We want these cars to live on and not get. New owner's burned.
01-02-2011, 12:26 PM
#12
Pro
Joseph,
You have already gotten great advice from some of the Rennlist experts. I’ll make another recommendation for you to consider. Pass on this no-maintenance-records Hyundai-trade-in car and instead start a new thread here on Rennlist. Make it clear in the new thread that you are interested in purchasing a 928, give an idea of your budget, and specify what you are looking for (year, automatic/manual, etc.). You might be very handy with a wrench and be looking for something to work on and sort out yourself, or you may not be as knowledgeable / capable with a wrench and want to find a car that has already been properly maintained with the known issues (timing belt, tensioner, water pump, thrust bearing / endplay check, PKlamp or Superclamp, fuel line replacement, various electrical problems). There are normally a few RL members looking to sell their cars for a variety of reasons. You are much more likely to be able to purchase a very well sorted 928 from a RL member.
You have already gotten great advice from some of the Rennlist experts. I’ll make another recommendation for you to consider. Pass on this no-maintenance-records Hyundai-trade-in car and instead start a new thread here on Rennlist. Make it clear in the new thread that you are interested in purchasing a 928, give an idea of your budget, and specify what you are looking for (year, automatic/manual, etc.). You might be very handy with a wrench and be looking for something to work on and sort out yourself, or you may not be as knowledgeable / capable with a wrench and want to find a car that has already been properly maintained with the known issues (timing belt, tensioner, water pump, thrust bearing / endplay check, PKlamp or Superclamp, fuel line replacement, various electrical problems). There are normally a few RL members looking to sell their cars for a variety of reasons. You are much more likely to be able to purchase a very well sorted 928 from a RL member.
01-03-2011, 07:43 PM
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Hello,
- Test drove the 1990 928 S4 today. Dissapointing. Car was not well cared for. Hood wouldn't open without a strong pull as there was metal to metal scraping with the drivers side fender. Rear hatch wouldnt open without key. Rust below the passanger door. Dented rear fender. Champaign beige carpet no longer beige. Carpet padding from trunk all deterated. Passenger door storage lid broken. Sunrool deflector broken. ABS warning light on. Traction control warning light on. Paint dull with knicks and scratches.
Oh and did I mention zero maintenance records. Sales manager was like "make me an offer" - I declined.
Joe
- Test drove the 1990 928 S4 today. Dissapointing. Car was not well cared for. Hood wouldn't open without a strong pull as there was metal to metal scraping with the drivers side fender. Rear hatch wouldnt open without key. Rust below the passanger door. Dented rear fender. Champaign beige carpet no longer beige. Carpet padding from trunk all deterated. Passenger door storage lid broken. Sunrool deflector broken. ABS warning light on. Traction control warning light on. Paint dull with knicks and scratches.
Oh and did I mention zero maintenance records. Sales manager was like "make me an offer" - I declined.
Joe
Last edited by josephm; 01-03-2011 at 11:46 PM. Reason: content
01-03-2011, 07:56 PM
#14
Nordschleife Master
I'm not surprised because that car has been listed more than a few weeks. If it was in good shape that car would have been gone the day it was listed!
01-03-2011, 07:57 PM
#15
Race Car
Hello,
- Test drove the 1990 928 S4 today. Dissapointing. Car was not well cared for. Hood wouldn't open without a strong pull as there was metal to metal with the drivers side fender. Rear hatch wouldnt open without key. Rust below the drivers door. Dented rear fender. Champaign beige carpet no longer beige. Carpet padding from trunk all deterated. Passenger door storage lid broken. Sunrool deflector broken ABS warning light on. Traction control warning light on. Paint dull with knicks and scratches.
Oh and did mention zero maintenance records. Sales manager was like "make me an offer" - I declined.
Joe
- Test drove the 1990 928 S4 today. Dissapointing. Car was not well cared for. Hood wouldn't open without a strong pull as there was metal to metal with the drivers side fender. Rear hatch wouldnt open without key. Rust below the drivers door. Dented rear fender. Champaign beige carpet no longer beige. Carpet padding from trunk all deterated. Passenger door storage lid broken. Sunrool deflector broken ABS warning light on. Traction control warning light on. Paint dull with knicks and scratches.
Oh and did mention zero maintenance records. Sales manager was like "make me an offer" - I declined.
Joe