Can Euro Cars be brought into U.S economically
12-21-2010, 08:31 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Can Euro Cars be brought into U.S economically
This is something that James has went through and hopefully will chime in about and what a few have brought up over on the 928OC forum.
As a Canadian I feel very fortunate that I got my 89 Euro for what I feel was a good price.
James told me that it is very expensive to bring them into the states due to regulations.
I believe that this is something that could be resolved if we all worked together and think it through.
I am sure that there is a lot of knowledge here from those that have brought them over and those that have failed.
-Is it possible for the club, which has members on both sides to legally transfer vehicles across the border from one member to another like we do with parts by paying as if it is a gift?
-would a company license help if the company had a (car lot) on both sides of the border.
My thoughts are then the owner could pick up his car, which he paid for, and make his own required changes that are required for his state.
What Say yee
As a Canadian I feel very fortunate that I got my 89 Euro for what I feel was a good price.
James told me that it is very expensive to bring them into the states due to regulations.
I believe that this is something that could be resolved if we all worked together and think it through.
I am sure that there is a lot of knowledge here from those that have brought them over and those that have failed.
-Is it possible for the club, which has members on both sides to legally transfer vehicles across the border from one member to another like we do with parts by paying as if it is a gift?
-would a company license help if the company had a (car lot) on both sides of the border.
My thoughts are then the owner could pick up his car, which he paid for, and make his own required changes that are required for his state.
What Say yee
12-21-2010, 08:38 PM
#2
Nordschleife Master
The only easy way to do this is to buy the japanese car, bring it into Canada.
Then have a wrecked canadian market 928 of similar year, and cut all the VIN tags off the wrecked car and put them into the japanese 928.
Depending on the state, you MAY need to put some sort of a reflector on the corner, or have a friend who would wave it through inspections....
Other than that, plan on $13k minimum.
Then have a wrecked canadian market 928 of similar year, and cut all the VIN tags off the wrecked car and put them into the japanese 928.
Depending on the state, you MAY need to put some sort of a reflector on the corner, or have a friend who would wave it through inspections....
Other than that, plan on $13k minimum.
12-21-2010, 08:40 PM
#3
Nordschleife Master
Economically or legally, but not both.
The "trick" as I understand is to illegally drive it across the border to a state with "flexible" registration laws that allow registration with just a bill of sale. That semi washes the title, so it can be sold in a few more states, but not Calif and maybe not some others.
I don't think a dealer would want in the middle of such mess, but with a LOT of trust it might work. I think the Canadian owner would need to drive it to the US, maybe crossing the border a few times until the trip south didn't generate any paper trail requiring a matching trip N.
Another possibility might be to transfer US ownership via a mechanics lien sale. That must happen frequently, Canadian car gets driven south, breaks down and cost of repairs and time don't work for the owner who abandons it.
The "trick" as I understand is to illegally drive it across the border to a state with "flexible" registration laws that allow registration with just a bill of sale. That semi washes the title, so it can be sold in a few more states, but not Calif and maybe not some others.
I don't think a dealer would want in the middle of such mess, but with a LOT of trust it might work. I think the Canadian owner would need to drive it to the US, maybe crossing the border a few times until the trip south didn't generate any paper trail requiring a matching trip N.
Another possibility might be to transfer US ownership via a mechanics lien sale. That must happen frequently, Canadian car gets driven south, breaks down and cost of repairs and time don't work for the owner who abandons it.
12-21-2010, 08:42 PM
#4
The only way to do it easily (and not legally) is to drive a car imported into Canada ..across the border to a State where they don't check the title closely (as in WP0ZZZ Vin)..and have car licensed and titled in that State..whereby someone can then "sell" the car with a valid US title..
Adam B and I were registered importers for a while back when the euro exchange rate made sense..but there are a lot of hoops to jump through (EPA and NHTSA) and insurance is an issue (this was the toughest part by far)...
I suspect it's just best to wait the 30 years..and then they should be able to come into the States without too much difficulty..
Adam B and I were registered importers for a while back when the euro exchange rate made sense..but there are a lot of hoops to jump through (EPA and NHTSA) and insurance is an issue (this was the toughest part by far)...
I suspect it's just best to wait the 30 years..and then they should be able to come into the States without too much difficulty..
12-21-2010, 08:44 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Canada has far different rules and regulations for bringing 'older' vehicles into country.
I seem to recall 15 years being a magic number so older than the cars are basicaly excempt from scruntiny. For example not only are ex Japanese vehicles brought in but some are also Right Hand Drive.
On the other hand our friends to the South can buy almost exact same brand new cars for thousands and sometimes 10s of thousands of dollars less even though are dollars are essentially par.
I seem to recall 15 years being a magic number so older than the cars are basicaly excempt from scruntiny. For example not only are ex Japanese vehicles brought in but some are also Right Hand Drive.
On the other hand our friends to the South can buy almost exact same brand new cars for thousands and sometimes 10s of thousands of dollars less even though are dollars are essentially par.
12-21-2010, 08:53 PM
#6
Nordschleife Master
Colin, they have put people in JAIL for less than that bro!
Seriously Brad, it is not possible! The cars MUST, by decree of our FEDERAL GOVT meet the emissions requirements that were in effect for the year of that cars production. They must meet them AS NEW ALSO! What that means is if you have more than probably 1000 miles on the cats in the car you would be importing then it WILL NOT PASS. What that also means (because NO cat is over built) there are NO AFTERMARKET Cats that will make the car pass... BRAND NEW, FACTORY CATS WILL BE REQUIRED. They cost $3000!!!!
The EPA test that must be completed costs $3000! PASS OR FAIL! So, if you fail it, well, you are out $3000 PLUS you will have to do it again which will cost you ANOTHER $3000! Not to mention the current exchange rate is not favorable.
Then factor in all the lights, maybe tires if you don't have DOT ones on the car at the time it comes over, speedo convert, door mirror convert to convex and have it inscribed ("objects closer than they appear"), etc. etc. and you are looking at an EASY $13,000 today! Probably more like $16k to $18K depending on who does the convert. Not to mention shipping and the damage that will likely occur from that.
Some of the guys up in the PacNW were going to make a little business out of this very idea. They got pretty well along the way, and the exchange rate just kept getting worse and worse and ultimately there was no way they were going to be able to make it work. (While I was busy typing Tom chimed in already and mentioned Adam...we talked about this at length at the '04 OCIC I think it was)
Also, keep in mind a GOOD GTS (it would be absolutely pointless to do this with anything other than GTS's) is going to sell IN THE COUNTRY where it is...only the poor ones are going to hang around for any serious amount of time (or the ones that are priced way to high). You would need an EXTREMELY reliable contact over in the target market to go look at potential cars for you. Just think how long it takes to find good ones over here! Now go to a country where the cars are regularly flogged at over 150 mph...just the road rash at those speeds is going to be WAY beyond what we see here.
There is just no way to do it easily or cheaply.
Go to my link and then click on "MUSIC"...that has the whole article on the importation that I wrote in 2001 or 2002...
Seriously Brad, it is not possible! The cars MUST, by decree of our FEDERAL GOVT meet the emissions requirements that were in effect for the year of that cars production. They must meet them AS NEW ALSO! What that means is if you have more than probably 1000 miles on the cats in the car you would be importing then it WILL NOT PASS. What that also means (because NO cat is over built) there are NO AFTERMARKET Cats that will make the car pass... BRAND NEW, FACTORY CATS WILL BE REQUIRED. They cost $3000!!!!
The EPA test that must be completed costs $3000! PASS OR FAIL! So, if you fail it, well, you are out $3000 PLUS you will have to do it again which will cost you ANOTHER $3000! Not to mention the current exchange rate is not favorable.
Then factor in all the lights, maybe tires if you don't have DOT ones on the car at the time it comes over, speedo convert, door mirror convert to convex and have it inscribed ("objects closer than they appear"), etc. etc. and you are looking at an EASY $13,000 today! Probably more like $16k to $18K depending on who does the convert. Not to mention shipping and the damage that will likely occur from that.
Some of the guys up in the PacNW were going to make a little business out of this very idea. They got pretty well along the way, and the exchange rate just kept getting worse and worse and ultimately there was no way they were going to be able to make it work. (While I was busy typing Tom chimed in already and mentioned Adam...we talked about this at length at the '04 OCIC I think it was)
Also, keep in mind a GOOD GTS (it would be absolutely pointless to do this with anything other than GTS's) is going to sell IN THE COUNTRY where it is...only the poor ones are going to hang around for any serious amount of time (or the ones that are priced way to high). You would need an EXTREMELY reliable contact over in the target market to go look at potential cars for you. Just think how long it takes to find good ones over here! Now go to a country where the cars are regularly flogged at over 150 mph...just the road rash at those speeds is going to be WAY beyond what we see here.
There is just no way to do it easily or cheaply.
Go to my link and then click on "MUSIC"...that has the whole article on the importation that I wrote in 2001 or 2002...
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12-21-2010, 09:01 PM
#8
BTW... all it takes to fail the EPA test is a simple drop of fuel. The car is run and then put into a sealed chamber while it cools down. If the carbon vacuum recovery system isn't functioning properly..it will let fuel vapors escape....and it will fail...
And this is only part of the test
...
Yea..it's doable...but it's a lot of money..
And this is only part of the test
...Yea..it's doable...but it's a lot of money..
12-21-2010, 09:17 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
The basic "screwing" we get over importing a Porsche is that Porsche Cars North America refuses to issue a letter stating the cars are substantially the same for the model year sold in the US and in the market the car was originally sold in. Without the letter each car has to be taken apart and checked, updated, etc.
All the places that do it deal mostly with brand new high dollar cars, and see no reason not to give buyers of older cars the same over the barrel treatment.
************
Regardless of the law and/or penalty, plenty of cars from Japan make it into the US system, but I wonder if that will continue with the nationwide VIN databases going up.
All the places that do it deal mostly with brand new high dollar cars, and see no reason not to give buyers of older cars the same over the barrel treatment.
************
Regardless of the law and/or penalty, plenty of cars from Japan make it into the US system, but I wonder if that will continue with the nationwide VIN databases going up.
12-21-2010, 09:56 PM
#10
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
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Lifetime Rennlist
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From what I see in the news, if you fill it full of illegal citizens first it will be a cake walk.
12-21-2010, 09:58 PM
#11
thing is...the euro 928's (87 and later S4's) are different than their US counterparts..Some GTS' could be had without airbags. No side door bars, lights are non-DOT approved, there are warning lights in the dash that need to "activated", km dash's etc..
The cars that came to Canada were basically the same (not including those imported euro/jap ones)..but needed changed dash's etc...You could conceivably get Porsche NA to give you a letter on one of those 928's..but no advantage to getting a Cdn one...(other than options etc)..
The cars that came to Canada were basically the same (not including those imported euro/jap ones)..but needed changed dash's etc...You could conceivably get Porsche NA to give you a letter on one of those 928's..but no advantage to getting a Cdn one...(other than options etc)..
12-21-2010, 10:02 PM
#12
James, wouldn't it just **** ya off if one of us just happened to have imported a Jap S4, and it didn't cost a brazillion $$ to do it.
12-21-2010, 10:12 PM
#13
Nordschleife Master
James,
I didnt say that I would be doing it! I just said that is the only economical way to do it.....
Of course the other way is to buy a junker in the US (any year etc) drive it up, swap vins and drive back....
Besides, if they found out it happened in Canada they couldnt do anything about it. And if anything ever did come of it, all I would have to do is get 20kg of coke, and I would be on the streets within HOURS.
Erik,
That was priceless.
I didnt say that I would be doing it! I just said that is the only economical way to do it.....
Of course the other way is to buy a junker in the US (any year etc) drive it up, swap vins and drive back....
Besides, if they found out it happened in Canada they couldnt do anything about it. And if anything ever did come of it, all I would have to do is get 20kg of coke, and I would be on the streets within HOURS.
Erik,
That was priceless.
12-21-2010, 11:06 PM
#14
Nordschleife Master
Colin, I agree with you totally!
Sean, I could care less what anyone does with their car really. I think we are getting close to an easing on importation though. Tom indicated 30 years is the magic number, but I think it might actually be 20...that is what some over on the F-chat site have said anyway when looking at bringing in Fcars. I don't think anyone has tried to run the gauntlet on that yet though. If that is the case, just wait two years and lets see how many nice EURO 92 GTS's we can bring in! I'll be the first in line importing the damn things if it can be done profitably (still rather doubt that, since we see '93 US GTS's with 125k ish miles selling in the mid $20k range!)
I have seen a Euro market Lotus that was sneaked in to the country and licensed somehow, so people do it, but if you get caught they are not going to be kind to you and it will cost you not only a fortune to dispose of the car, but even more in legal expenses. Just does not make sense to me, but some folks really like to roll the dice! We had a black S4 that used to live here in Austin that had been in Japan... the thing with that car though was it started life as a US car and was then taken over seas an then brought back...that is no problem as far as the feds are concerned.
Sean, I could care less what anyone does with their car really. I think we are getting close to an easing on importation though. Tom indicated 30 years is the magic number, but I think it might actually be 20...that is what some over on the F-chat site have said anyway when looking at bringing in Fcars. I don't think anyone has tried to run the gauntlet on that yet though. If that is the case, just wait two years and lets see how many nice EURO 92 GTS's we can bring in! I'll be the first in line importing the damn things if it can be done profitably (still rather doubt that, since we see '93 US GTS's with 125k ish miles selling in the mid $20k range!)
I have seen a Euro market Lotus that was sneaked in to the country and licensed somehow, so people do it, but if you get caught they are not going to be kind to you and it will cost you not only a fortune to dispose of the car, but even more in legal expenses. Just does not make sense to me, but some folks really like to roll the dice! We had a black S4 that used to live here in Austin that had been in Japan... the thing with that car though was it started life as a US car and was then taken over seas an then brought back...that is no problem as far as the feds are concerned.
12-22-2010, 12:02 AM
#15
It's been a few years since I looked into this.. and it's not 30 years... It's 25 years..so, for a GTS..it'll be 2017...not too far out...(this applies for Euro cars..not Cdn cars...)
For NHTSA requirements --- 25 years
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/impo...list010410.pdf
for EPA requirements --- 21 years..
http://www.epa.gov/oms/imports/420b10028.pdf
More info here:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/
http://www.epa.gov/oms/imports/
For NHTSA requirements --- 25 years
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/impo...list010410.pdf
for EPA requirements --- 21 years..
http://www.epa.gov/oms/imports/420b10028.pdf
More info here:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/
http://www.epa.gov/oms/imports/