BRB-83-911SC

84 Euro S 16v, 5-speed, 36,000 miles, LH, EZF: I am chasing down an intermittant stalling issue - 3 times in the past month it stalled at a light, as if I turned the key off - no stumbling or unusual idle, and once while cruising at about 40mph just a quick cut out like I turned the key off for a split second. 2 of the 3 times when it stalled at the light it started right back up and ran fine the rest of the day. The most recent time it stalled, it started after about 10 minutes. While cranking, I have tach bounce and power to the dash, no fuel smell. This last time, I also heard a noise from the area of the CE panel just before it stalled - I can only describe it as a "relay type sound".

So, I'm thinking of these things: fuel pump fuse poor connection; fuel pump relay; LH relay; EZF relay; or LH brain.

I took a look at the CE panel, and all looks very clean, no corrosion or signs of moisture - fuse contacts are nice and copper colored. However, I noticed that the fuel pump fuse was an 8 amp (white bullet type), and I think it is supposed to be 16 amp. The fuse was not blown or burnt in any way. I have replaced it with a new 16 amp fuse. Is this correct?

I am now puzzed by the relays, and want to confirm what is correct for a Euro with LH. All relays appear to be original to the car. According to PET, I see that EZF is VII, LH is XVI, and the fuel pump is XVII. Also according to PET, I see that these should be part # 141 951 253 B. Is this correct? I am not sure that is what I have in my car. I have ordered 3 relays (141 951 253 B), but am now wondering if those are what I need.

In the picture below is my CE panel, and of the 3 relays I am concerned with, only 1 is labeled 53 (for EZF) and the others are labeled 24. Does that mean anything? I pulled the fuel pump relay and have attached a picture - the part number on it is nothing like what is in PET. Maybe these relays are not original to the car after all? Am I ok putting the relays I have ordered in those 3 positions?

So far, the problem has been so intermittant I have not been able to test anything, and other than these few occurances, the car runs very well - nothing else unusual - and I really am hoping to nip this with these relays - unless my LH brain is beginning to fail.

I welcome any thoughts on this, and opinions around what you see in the pics. Thanks!!

Jadz928

The quick of it is the 53 relays are the ones you want to use, and a great place to staryt
LH brain failure is not intermittent. (I'll get that LH in the mail tomorrow.
Intermittent issues are a bugger. Eliminating variable starting w/the easiest, ie. most routine, is the way to get started - will give you an opportunity to get caught up on some of the routine stuff.
Let us know what you have done so far. Battery ground strap, change spark plugs, clean coil contacts, etc
Let see if we can narrow this bugger down.

Mrmerlin

first get a fuse relay chart here 928gt.com
on page 2 click on tips and links print off a chart for your car.
verify that you have the correct fuses in the correct positions.
The 53 relay is similar to the 24 relay so you should be good to go swapping them out.
Dont put a higher capacity fuse in
Also make sure the empty slots for fuses and relays are in fact empty.
Clean the ground wire in the hatch,
and the battery terminals,
also inspect the hot post connections and clean the 14 pin connector above the hot post

There is a fuse relay chart in here just scroll through
http://www.google.com/url?url=http:/...YsmNEQ&cad=rja

Landseer

Cleaning grounds, esp. engine right cam cover might be good.
Bad ground strap (hidden damage) will do it, too.
Fading ignition switch also.
Coil wire corrosion
The usual suspects, long list actually.




Take a good hard look at those fuses again.

If you encounter any higher than design, consider pulling the panel to ensure no melting behind.

I've replaced original 24 with plastic boxed 53 on USA 84 cars.

Here's the Euro chart. (Zoom with mouse wheel, holding ctrl button for better visibility)

BRB-83-911SC

Hey Jim - what leads me to a relay is the fact that when it has stalled (and only 3 times over the past month) it was as if I turned the key off - no stumbling, rough idle, or anything leading up to it. And then when started back up, it started as cleanly as normal (no long cranking, flooding, etc.). Plus, I heard that quick little "buzz" from the CE panel area just before it stalled. I should also add that I do NOT have an alarm/immobilizer - someone's bound to ask.

Should the fuel pump fuse be 16 amp?

Battery ground strap is clean as a whistle, I have checked the plugs and they are clean and look to be normal in color, caps a rotors are as new, I have not checked the coil connections - will do tomorrow night. 53 relays are on their way...

BRB-83-911SC

Thanks mrmerlin - great document; and thanks Chris - that is what I was looking for - a chart specifically for the Euro with LH - a bit of a different beast in that the US 84's don't have relays for the LH and EZF. The only fuse that looked wrong was for the fuel pump which had an 8 amp fuse in place, where eveything I see calls for a 16 amp fuse there - so correcting that shoulnd't be a problem me thinks...

All good advice - appreciate it!

Jadz928

Brian,
Word. If you horn works, pull the relay for it and use it to replace each of you target relays one at a time - somthing to do while you're waiting for those neww shiney 53s. Good luck!

Landseer

We've seen a series of ground straps fail beneath the plastic shroud and I expect to see more.

Low voltage at the relay will cause noise and/or cycling if its got some voltage variability like can happen with bad grounds.

BRB-83-911SC

UPDATE: I got 3 new 53 relays last week and installed them in the LH, EZF and Fuel Pump locations, and the car wouldn't start. I swapped the new relay in the LH with the old, and the car started right up. Bad new relay? So I swapped suspect new relay into fuel pump location, and the car wouldn't start. Bad new relay. Put the good new one back in, and drove the car a bit. It stalled once and started right back up. What are the chances that I put the bad old relay back in to replace the bad new relay? So I swapped that one out with another old relay, drove the car and no stall. I am not yet convinced as it was such an intermittant isssue - only time will tell.

I will order some more 53 relays and replace that old one that remains in the LH location.

During this time, I also checked the coil leads, which were clean, and the battery ground strap, which was corrosion free, but I did clean up the connection so it is good and bright.

Thanks guys for all of the tips. Car is running strong otherwise.

Jim - I also replaced the clutch slave and the PS reservoir and hose, so no more leaks there. I still think the clutch is dragging a bit though. Oh, and I put some factory dual cats (85-86 US, I think) on for the time being that Brad had (to replace those homemade straight pipes), and the sound is a lot less rattty tatty, and smells better. Someday I'll give an X-pipe a try.

Mrmerlin

look above the CE panel at the blower box grate, if the bolts are rusty then your BB seal may be leaking and possibly damaging the relays

Landseer

Intermittent / borderline relays, especially a new one, signal low voltage (perhaps intermittently) at the panel.

The ground strap for the battery gets grey underneath the plastic cover, near either end, and can be a hidden voltage drain. Ends can look shiny as a new piece of jewelry.

Shorts / wire melts behind the panel can also do this.

There really is no way around going deep on these cars.

Jadz928

Very dramatic, Chris.

Landseer

Well, I just got back from the corner shop my friend runs. Audi expert.
He asked me to evaluate and make recommendations on approaches to an 84 USA auto.
Same answer.

If you don't pull the panel and clean the grounds and 14 pin connector, and door pins, nothing you do to fix interior electrical will be a professional reliable repair. (Car had been sitting sporadically and not maintained over a long time period).

We pulled the rear roof interior light and the wires were fried bare. Hard for a general shop to take-on this type of enthusiast work and make money or keep customers happy.

BRB-83-911SC

After my last post I took it out for about an hour - no stalling.

I suspect that one of the old original relays (for the LH) was getting tired. Also, it appears that one of the new relays I bought was bad - it didn't work in the 2 places I tried it. So, now that I *think* I have all good relays in there, I am hoping all is well. With my luck, it will probably stall next time out - in which case I will go deeper.

Should I go ahead and replace all of those old silver 24 and 53 relays with new 53 relays? Or, should I just leave well enough alone and carry a few spares. All electrical in this car works very well (outside of the hopefully resolved stalling issue we have been tracking down). Thanks guys.

Landseer

You have a special car, actually, that is very well-preserved.


Most have a corroded mess down at the panel. The defroster wire gets hot and melts across and barely contacts some of the critical function wires sometimes.
Pulling the panel to polish and replace fuses / relays is much easier than one would think, yet it looks scary. Lots of guys suffer because they don't do it. Again, your's is particularly well cared for and may be ok. But if that new relay gets "dodgy" which is what I thought I read when skimming earlier, then I'd pull the panel.

I have had new relays fail due to this diminished voltage.
Sometimes its temp related, too.
Crazy stuff.