Another week, another leak (wet carpet behind driver seat)
08-31-2010, 02:53 PM
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Another week, another leak (wet carpet behind driver seat)
I'm getting to know my new 928 quite well now - lots of small things to fix now that its out of storage. Last week it was a door seal leak to trace, this week its wet somewhere else.
I have a wet carpet behind the drivers seat. Not loads of water, but enough to be a problem. I can't see where the water is coming from, but the seatbelt also seems to be damp (the part that comes from behind the trim panel is damp). I guess it is running down somewhere behind trim panels, which is my worst nightmare - the car is totally leather - everywhere, and I don't wan't panels to warp or leather to get wet.
Are there any typical suspects here?
The car has a sunroof, but I thought the drains went down the passenger side (but haven't checked). It could also be the rear quarter window or hatch. Thats too many things to check at once for me, so please, any suggestions where to start.
Autumn is coming to Norway very soon, and that means damp, cold, misted windows, moldy smell, even damper, colder, very misted windows, strong moldy smell, frost, frozen carpet, misery, misery, misery etc.
The sooner I can sort this the better, but I don't have tons of money to throw at this right now.
Regards
SimonC
I have a wet carpet behind the drivers seat. Not loads of water, but enough to be a problem. I can't see where the water is coming from, but the seatbelt also seems to be damp (the part that comes from behind the trim panel is damp). I guess it is running down somewhere behind trim panels, which is my worst nightmare - the car is totally leather - everywhere, and I don't wan't panels to warp or leather to get wet.
Are there any typical suspects here?
The car has a sunroof, but I thought the drains went down the passenger side (but haven't checked). It could also be the rear quarter window or hatch. Thats too many things to check at once for me, so please, any suggestions where to start.
Autumn is coming to Norway very soon, and that means damp, cold, misted windows, moldy smell, even damper, colder, very misted windows, strong moldy smell, frost, frozen carpet, misery, misery, misery etc.
The sooner I can sort this the better, but I don't have tons of money to throw at this right now.
Regards
SimonC
08-31-2010, 03:38 PM
#2
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There are four drains for the sun roof, one on each corner. The two rear ones drain onto the rear hatch frame (open the hatch and you can see the holes). The two front ones drain into a tube/hose that runs down the "A" pillar and into the front wheel wells behind the WW liner.
The two side window seals are not prone to leaking unless they have been re-used and damaged in the process of re-installation.
The most common leak area is the rear window on the hatch. The seal gets hard and the flexing of the hatch causes the bond to fail between the glass and the frame of the hatch. Get inside with the hatch closed while someone else sprays water at the window. It will help if you can remove the interior hatch panel (four screws for the rear sun visors and six panel fasteners).
I've also seen the hatch leak at the hinges if the hatch has been removed and the seal damaged. With a helper you can remove one hinge at a time and apply some silicone or form a gasket under the hinge (body side) then reinstall the screws.
The two side window seals are not prone to leaking unless they have been re-used and damaged in the process of re-installation.
The most common leak area is the rear window on the hatch. The seal gets hard and the flexing of the hatch causes the bond to fail between the glass and the frame of the hatch. Get inside with the hatch closed while someone else sprays water at the window. It will help if you can remove the interior hatch panel (four screws for the rear sun visors and six panel fasteners).
I've also seen the hatch leak at the hinges if the hatch has been removed and the seal damaged. With a helper you can remove one hinge at a time and apply some silicone or form a gasket under the hinge (body side) then reinstall the screws.
08-31-2010, 04:58 PM
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Thanks Jim. I have just come inside now after looking at the sun roof, but I missed the rear drain holes. Should have read your message before I went out! The front two were clear though. Will go out tomorrow and have a look for the rear drain holes.
I will try your idea to check the hatch seal. Can I seal this up myself if it leaks, or does the whole window have to come out and be re-fitted?
SimonC
I will try your idea to check the hatch seal. Can I seal this up myself if it leaks, or does the whole window have to come out and be re-fitted?
SimonC
08-31-2010, 05:45 PM
#4
Drifting
You may also want to check certain areas to have a better idea of how much water is coming in. If you remove the rear seat cushions, you can cut a small hole in the rubber/foam insulation that is underneath, insert finger, and feel for wetness. I've seen this problem on a few '85s. The metal in that area is pretty thin to start with, and in a few years, I expect to see people complaining of rusted out floors under the rear seats. When water gets into that area, it is very difficult for it to dry on it's own.
If you find water under the back seats, remove the headliner and the quarter panels. Inspect them for water damage. While they're out of the way, inspect the foam pads that are under the rear side windows for signs of moisture. Also look inside the battery box.
With the headliner removed you can see parts of the sunroof drain tubes. You can sit in the car with the windows closed and have a helper pour a glass of water on the closed sunroof. Use a flashlight to see if water enters anywhere. If your helper can pour water without making a mess, do this test with the hatch open, so your helper can see if the water is flowing out of the rear drains. Also have them check the garage floor around the forward jack points for puddles. If you think one of the drains isn't working, pour another glass of water onto the area of the sunroof that corresponds to the drain in question. If you still don't see any water, the drain could be blocked. Use weed whacker string to clear the drain.
Next, have your helper pour another glass of water onto the rear of the roof so that most of the water runs down into the seam between the roof and the hatch. Check to see if water comes in around the hinges or the hatch seal.
Finally, pour another glass of water onto the hatch just above the top of the rear window. Check for leaks where the glass is glued to the hatch.
Keep in mind, the sunroof seal isn't meant to seal out all water. It's designed to allow some water in, which is eventually channeled to one of the four drains. Complete removal of the headliner is a pain in the ***. You should be able to lower the rear of it slightly without much difficulty. From that point, you can see what you need to see. The sunroof seal probably won't need replacement but the sunroof may require adjustment if the drains are clear but still unable to drain the water faster than it enters.
The hatch hinges can be sealed with something like RTV. If the hatch seal is bad, this will cost some money to replace. If the seal on the hatch glass is failing and the source of your leaks, you'll need to remove the window, and have it professionally reinstalled. In the US, you can buy a new rope seal like the factory used and install it yourself. You can also buy a 2-pack adhesive which is what the pros do these days, but you'll also need the special mixing gun which is EXPENSIVE and not worth it for one job. I don't know what options are available to you in Norway due to the protectionist economies of the EU. Unless you're very handy, you're better to let the pros handle it.
The only other thing that can leak at the rear are the side/quarter windows. I've pulled these windows from several cars. On every one I've seen, in addition to the thick rubber gasket, Porsche also used an adhesive caulk to seal the rubber gasket against the body. The windows are easy to remove on your own, but installation with fresh caulk is best left to the glass shop.
That covers the back half of the car. Most of this isn't super expensive to repair, but it is time consuming to find the source of your leaks.
If you find water under the back seats, remove the headliner and the quarter panels. Inspect them for water damage. While they're out of the way, inspect the foam pads that are under the rear side windows for signs of moisture. Also look inside the battery box.
With the headliner removed you can see parts of the sunroof drain tubes. You can sit in the car with the windows closed and have a helper pour a glass of water on the closed sunroof. Use a flashlight to see if water enters anywhere. If your helper can pour water without making a mess, do this test with the hatch open, so your helper can see if the water is flowing out of the rear drains. Also have them check the garage floor around the forward jack points for puddles. If you think one of the drains isn't working, pour another glass of water onto the area of the sunroof that corresponds to the drain in question. If you still don't see any water, the drain could be blocked. Use weed whacker string to clear the drain.
Next, have your helper pour another glass of water onto the rear of the roof so that most of the water runs down into the seam between the roof and the hatch. Check to see if water comes in around the hinges or the hatch seal.
Finally, pour another glass of water onto the hatch just above the top of the rear window. Check for leaks where the glass is glued to the hatch.
Keep in mind, the sunroof seal isn't meant to seal out all water. It's designed to allow some water in, which is eventually channeled to one of the four drains. Complete removal of the headliner is a pain in the ***. You should be able to lower the rear of it slightly without much difficulty. From that point, you can see what you need to see. The sunroof seal probably won't need replacement but the sunroof may require adjustment if the drains are clear but still unable to drain the water faster than it enters.
The hatch hinges can be sealed with something like RTV. If the hatch seal is bad, this will cost some money to replace. If the seal on the hatch glass is failing and the source of your leaks, you'll need to remove the window, and have it professionally reinstalled. In the US, you can buy a new rope seal like the factory used and install it yourself. You can also buy a 2-pack adhesive which is what the pros do these days, but you'll also need the special mixing gun which is EXPENSIVE and not worth it for one job. I don't know what options are available to you in Norway due to the protectionist economies of the EU. Unless you're very handy, you're better to let the pros handle it.
The only other thing that can leak at the rear are the side/quarter windows. I've pulled these windows from several cars. On every one I've seen, in addition to the thick rubber gasket, Porsche also used an adhesive caulk to seal the rubber gasket against the body. The windows are easy to remove on your own, but installation with fresh caulk is best left to the glass shop.
That covers the back half of the car. Most of this isn't super expensive to repair, but it is time consuming to find the source of your leaks.
08-31-2010, 06:15 PM
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Thats what I love about this site. Really good answers that can save hours of trial and error and lots of grief. I'm amazed what a great community 928 owners have made.
Thanks for the detailed answers. I will get out there and carefully test each step with jugs of water and a helper.
I need to remove the rear quarter panel on that side, since the leather has come loose, and needs refixing. I had put it off, but realise now that its the right time to do it. And, I was thinking of having a look at the hatch glass anyway - the paint has bubbled at the lower part under the trim, and needs doing some time.
I guess its the car that decides when things have to be done, and not me.
SimonC
Thanks for the detailed answers. I will get out there and carefully test each step with jugs of water and a helper.
I need to remove the rear quarter panel on that side, since the leather has come loose, and needs refixing. I had put it off, but realise now that its the right time to do it. And, I was thinking of having a look at the hatch glass anyway - the paint has bubbled at the lower part under the trim, and needs doing some time.
I guess its the car that decides when things have to be done, and not me.
SimonC
08-31-2010, 06:52 PM
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Rennlist Member
I disagree with Jhowell on the rear glass. I removed mine and reinstalled it several years ago with no problems. The glass itself is light, easy to handle and can be reinstalled by one person. Disconnect the window heat wires and force a small wire through the sealant, attach two handles (screwdriver works very well) and cut the sealant with the wire. Lift the glass out and clean all the old sealant off of the hatch and the glass, be sure to save all the clips that support the glass and that attach to the window trim. Here in the states we can get the glass sealant at any local auto parts store. If that's not possible Porsche can get it for you. The stuff I used didn't need any special gun, just a normal caulk gun.
If you have corrosion at the base of the glass (very common) the glass needs to come out to do the job correctly so the timing is good.
If you have corrosion at the base of the glass (very common) the glass needs to come out to do the job correctly so the timing is good.
08-31-2010, 08:29 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
In addition to the excellent suggestions already mentioned, there are 2 more "secret" locations where the water may come in. How do I know? Well, because that is where my sunroof was leaking. Water was also collecting in the same spot as yours, behind the rear seats. In my case behind the passenger seat. If the car was parked level, the rear carpet would be wet. If the car was parked slightly nose down the rear carpet and front carpet would be wet all the way up to the Central Electrical Panel.
After cleaning 4 roof drains, checking hatch seals, heater box, windshield seal, door seals etc etc, I found my leak to be from 2 "clips" mounted in the rear portion of the sunroof cavity. They can be seen from inside the car when you remove the headliner. The sunroof mechanism slides on two metal/aluminum pieces about 50-60 cm long, (on my car they were shiny aluminum) which are "glued with sealer" as well as screwed down. They form the "side barriers of the inside roof cavity. On the rear of those "metal bars" is a "lip" that slides into a metal clip to hold the rear portion of these bars down. These clips attach "through the inner roof panel" with a spring clip, as well as having sealer on them.
It seems during a previous repaint, they had removed all of the sunroof parts, and when reinstalling everything they had not renewed the sealer on those clips. If yours are leaking, the water will come in through the clips, travel down the B-pillar and then down on the rear floor. Most likely you will also have some moisture under your rear seat cushion.
An easy way to see if these are leaking is to remove the roof liner. Open your sunroof and poor some water near the edge of the sunroof opening, towards the rear of the car (outside of the drip channels). If everything else is sealed properly, there will be water dripping from these clips. Looking inside the car upwards, the will be one on either side of the sunroof motor, maybe 10-15cm in front of where the sunroof motor is mounted.
I am just about to pull my sun roof (sunroof delete, wohoo!) so I should have some pictures of these area in a few days.
Cheers!
Carl
1986.5 928S 5-speed (in heavy check, and loosing a sunroof)
After cleaning 4 roof drains, checking hatch seals, heater box, windshield seal, door seals etc etc, I found my leak to be from 2 "clips" mounted in the rear portion of the sunroof cavity. They can be seen from inside the car when you remove the headliner. The sunroof mechanism slides on two metal/aluminum pieces about 50-60 cm long, (on my car they were shiny aluminum) which are "glued with sealer" as well as screwed down. They form the "side barriers of the inside roof cavity. On the rear of those "metal bars" is a "lip" that slides into a metal clip to hold the rear portion of these bars down. These clips attach "through the inner roof panel" with a spring clip, as well as having sealer on them.
It seems during a previous repaint, they had removed all of the sunroof parts, and when reinstalling everything they had not renewed the sealer on those clips. If yours are leaking, the water will come in through the clips, travel down the B-pillar and then down on the rear floor. Most likely you will also have some moisture under your rear seat cushion.
An easy way to see if these are leaking is to remove the roof liner. Open your sunroof and poor some water near the edge of the sunroof opening, towards the rear of the car (outside of the drip channels). If everything else is sealed properly, there will be water dripping from these clips. Looking inside the car upwards, the will be one on either side of the sunroof motor, maybe 10-15cm in front of where the sunroof motor is mounted.
I am just about to pull my sun roof (sunroof delete, wohoo!) so I should have some pictures of these area in a few days.
Cheers!
Carl
1986.5 928S 5-speed (in heavy check, and loosing a sunroof)
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02-27-2012, 08:15 PM
#8
Racer
Simon, were you able to locate and fix the leaks? Where did you find them?
I'm trying to find the source of two leaks: right rear corner - had new seals put on the 1/4 glasses a few years ago. Don't know if that's the source, but suspect.
Sounds like the other leak may be from the hatch hinges. PO wrecked/repaired the car. NONE of the repaired metal was sealed and I thought I found it all, but dang, I still have a puddle under the driver's seat.
I'm trying to find the source of two leaks: right rear corner - had new seals put on the 1/4 glasses a few years ago. Don't know if that's the source, but suspect.
Sounds like the other leak may be from the hatch hinges. PO wrecked/repaired the car. NONE of the repaired metal was sealed and I thought I found it all, but dang, I still have a puddle under the driver's seat.
02-28-2012, 04:02 AM
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Hi Karen
God I hate leaks. I have just had a year of bliss, but now the car is all steamed up again. The leaks I have traced so far are as follows:
1. The passenger door seems to fill up with water from poor window seals, and not drain very well. At a certain point it decides to drain onto my carpet. I can sometimes see water come over the front bottom of the door seal if I brake hard! I guess I need a new door seal and to drill another drain hole in the door.
2. The trim on the back window. The rust there has formed a hole (probably several) along the bottom, and it drains all of the rain from the rear window inside the boot. Have sealed with silicone until the summer.
I never did find the source of the leak into the back, and it never happened again. I suspect that it was the rear window seal, or alternatively water from the front that flowed rearwards under the carpet (that happened on my 944). I did take out the rear 3/4 trim (and repaired it at the same time) and couldn't see any trace of the water. I also took out the rear seat backs and found things dry. It wasn't as difficult as you think, just a damned huge piece of trim to man/woman-handle out.
But, I have now found one parking position, on a slight hill drivers side up on kerb, nose down, that keeps her pretty dry. Just waiting for summer and that rear window is out and all holes repaired.
SimonC
God I hate leaks. I have just had a year of bliss, but now the car is all steamed up again. The leaks I have traced so far are as follows:
1. The passenger door seems to fill up with water from poor window seals, and not drain very well. At a certain point it decides to drain onto my carpet. I can sometimes see water come over the front bottom of the door seal if I brake hard! I guess I need a new door seal and to drill another drain hole in the door.
2. The trim on the back window. The rust there has formed a hole (probably several) along the bottom, and it drains all of the rain from the rear window inside the boot. Have sealed with silicone until the summer.
I never did find the source of the leak into the back, and it never happened again. I suspect that it was the rear window seal, or alternatively water from the front that flowed rearwards under the carpet (that happened on my 944). I did take out the rear 3/4 trim (and repaired it at the same time) and couldn't see any trace of the water. I also took out the rear seat backs and found things dry. It wasn't as difficult as you think, just a damned huge piece of trim to man/woman-handle out.
But, I have now found one parking position, on a slight hill drivers side up on kerb, nose down, that keeps her pretty dry. Just waiting for summer and that rear window is out and all holes repaired.
SimonC
02-28-2012, 06:22 AM
#10
Rennlist Member
I found that water under both my seats on the GTS was coming from cracked door seals at the rear upper corners (which are now replaced).
Water drips/runs down from there to exactly the area that you have both referred to. I looked at every spot water could be coming from after I got wet carpet twice under, in front of, and behind my seats ... then realised that the water gets spread from the original point around the floor and under the seats with G forces.
I ran a hose on top of the roof and it ran off the roof, past the door seal, and dripped to the floor below. You can have a defect much less severe that what you see in this pic and it'll get in and drip down to the floor, and wets the seat belt on the way.
You'd think the crush of the seal would close the gap and stop water getting in ... but it doesn't.
Water drips/runs down from there to exactly the area that you have both referred to. I looked at every spot water could be coming from after I got wet carpet twice under, in front of, and behind my seats ... then realised that the water gets spread from the original point around the floor and under the seats with G forces.
I ran a hose on top of the roof and it ran off the roof, past the door seal, and dripped to the floor below. You can have a defect much less severe that what you see in this pic and it'll get in and drip down to the floor, and wets the seat belt on the way.
You'd think the crush of the seal would close the gap and stop water getting in ... but it doesn't.
02-28-2012, 06:35 AM
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Thanks. Thats another point to check. I do notice when I open the passenger door that some drips come from that point, maybe theres something more. My seals are actually in good condition, they just don't seal all around the door any more, particularly the front lower part of the door/body face. Im guessing that they are just old and have lost their capability to expand properly, but maybe I need to adjust the doors (although they align nicely on the outside).
SimonC
SimonC
02-28-2012, 09:16 PM
#12
Racer
Thanks. I'll put some reveal paper around the door. The floor fills up when parked flat & level and I'm waiting on an engine swap, so I have plenty of time to dink w/ it.
04-19-2013, 11:58 PM
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I have just picked up a 1990 Carrera 4 "964" i am finding water in the front foot well and rear foot well of the driver side, looking at the sun roof and it looks dry so i am looking for some help on locating the possible areas that the water could be coming in from... help
