928 with carb
05-12-2010, 02:41 PM
#17
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When he is asking Carb or TB I assumed he meant eight carbs with TB's versus a single or double carb setup.
The OP's english isn't the greatest so I was trying to read between the lines since comparing a carb setup to something like Mike Simards engine is downright silly
05-12-2010, 02:42 PM
#18
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My experience has been the opposite. Getting it running was relatively easy. Tuning has been a never ending story... there's always at least one more thing you want to tweak/improve. As one of the guys on the MS forum put it: once you get into to tuning, you'll start swapping out parts just as an excuse to tune, and you'll start criticizing OEM EFI systems as to what they could have done with, for instance, a bit of extra accell enrichment, etc. ;-)
After running my MS setup for two years I recently went back and built a new intake manifold and fuel rail, just to see if that would clear up some of the tuning issues I was fighting. That chapter is still in progress....
After running my MS setup for two years I recently went back and built a new intake manifold and fuel rail, just to see if that would clear up some of the tuning issues I was fighting. That chapter is still in progress....
05-12-2010, 02:45 PM
#19
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EFI = Electronic Fuel Injection
What do you think is on your car now?
The main reason why most would argue against an aftermarket EFI over Lh/EZF is because the OEM system is very good. The problems you are having are not unique to the Bosch system.
Unless you are planning modifications that are beyond the tuning capabilities of the original system, where is the benefit? Other than losing a damn good knock detection system that will be hard to duplicate. For someone with little to no tuning experience like yourself, it's a very long bumpy road to go down.
The frustration you seam to have just trying to get the original system working will pale in comparison with trying to fire up and tune your first aftermarket unit.
Most do not appreciate the amount of time it takes to fully tune a new system. In my experience, most "tuners" do a "good enough" job and IMO never come close to OEM setup.
For an example, Todd has more time tuning just his start up and idle map (much less cruise and WOT) than most people have into every project they have ever performed on their car. The end result is an aftermarket setup that starts / runs in 10 degree weather just as good as a 100 degree day (yes he has tested this, if the road is clear he's driving no matter what the weather).
His idle is so smooth he "shows off" by balancing a nickle on the intake manifold while it's running.
IMO anything less than Todd and Luke's approach to tuning an aftermarket system is half-assed.
What do you think is on your car now?
The main reason why most would argue against an aftermarket EFI over Lh/EZF is because the OEM system is very good. The problems you are having are not unique to the Bosch system.
Unless you are planning modifications that are beyond the tuning capabilities of the original system, where is the benefit? Other than losing a damn good knock detection system that will be hard to duplicate. For someone with little to no tuning experience like yourself, it's a very long bumpy road to go down.
The frustration you seam to have just trying to get the original system working will pale in comparison with trying to fire up and tune your first aftermarket unit.
Most do not appreciate the amount of time it takes to fully tune a new system. In my experience, most "tuners" do a "good enough" job and IMO never come close to OEM setup.
For an example, Todd has more time tuning just his start up and idle map (much less cruise and WOT) than most people have into every project they have ever performed on their car. The end result is an aftermarket setup that starts / runs in 10 degree weather just as good as a 100 degree day (yes he has tested this, if the road is clear he's driving no matter what the weather).
His idle is so smooth he "shows off" by balancing a nickle on the intake manifold while it's running.
IMO anything less than Todd and Luke's approach to tuning an aftermarket system is half-assed.
05-12-2010, 02:48 PM
#20
Three Wheelin'
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I wonder why you guys are telling me not to dump my LH for EFI despite all the problems. Fixing it I get that and understanding the reasons I do too. However, if mine isn't going to be a daily driver anymore, but a weekend toy, I see no reason to keep the LH system and upgrade to modern EFI like Megasquirt or Electromotive Tec GT. After reading about Haltech EFI I am starting to look at that one. I will do EFI someday.
I didn't tell you not to, just tried to lay out the pros and cons.
BTW, LH IS EFI (Electronic Fuel Injection). Even CIS sort of qualifies. What's not EFI is Kugelfischer, old Bosch with injection pumps, and carburetors.
05-12-2010, 02:49 PM
#21
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05-12-2010, 02:49 PM
#22
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05-12-2010, 02:50 PM
#23
Three Wheelin'
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I'm not trying to argue carbs are a good idea, just trying to answer the question.
When he is asking Carb or TB I assumed he meant eight carbs with TB's versus a single or double carb setup.
The OP's english isn't the greatest so I was trying to read between the lines since comparing a carb setup to something like Mike Simards engine is downright silly
When he is asking Carb or TB I assumed he meant eight carbs with TB's versus a single or double carb setup.
The OP's english isn't the greatest so I was trying to read between the lines since comparing a carb setup to something like Mike Simards engine is downright silly
We'll have to wait and see if he clarifies this.
05-12-2010, 02:57 PM
#24
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Many (with experience tuning many different systems) would agree that just because it's aftermarket, standalone or "new" doesn't make it "better".
In many cases people go standalone and brag how much better their car runs. When in reality they coincidentally fixed the original problem simply by removing everything and re-installing all new parts.
05-12-2010, 03:02 PM
#25
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EFI = Electronic Fuel Injection
What do you think is on your car now?
The main reason why most would argue against an aftermarket EFI over Lh/EZF is because the OEM system is very good. The problems you are having are not unique to the Bosch system.
Unless you are planning modifications that are beyond the tuning capabilities of the original system, where is the benefit? Other than losing a damn good knock detection system that will be hard to duplicate. For someone with little to no tuning experience like yourself, it's a very long bumpy road to go down.
The frustration you seam to have just trying to get the original system working will pale in comparison with trying to fire up and tune your first aftermarket unit.
Most do not appreciate the amount of time it takes to fully tune a new system. In my experience, most "tuners" do a "good enough" job and IMO never come close to OEM setup.
For an example, Todd has more time tuning just his start up and idle map (much less cruise and WOT) than most people have into every project they have ever performed on their car. The end result is an aftermarket setup that starts / runs in 10 degree weather just as good as a 100 degree day (yes he has tested this, if the road is clear he's driving no matter what the weather).
His idle is so smooth he "shows off" by balancing a nickle on the intake manifold while it's running.
IMO anything less than Todd and Luke's approach to tuning an aftermarket system is half-assed.
What do you think is on your car now?
The main reason why most would argue against an aftermarket EFI over Lh/EZF is because the OEM system is very good. The problems you are having are not unique to the Bosch system.
Unless you are planning modifications that are beyond the tuning capabilities of the original system, where is the benefit? Other than losing a damn good knock detection system that will be hard to duplicate. For someone with little to no tuning experience like yourself, it's a very long bumpy road to go down.
The frustration you seam to have just trying to get the original system working will pale in comparison with trying to fire up and tune your first aftermarket unit.
Most do not appreciate the amount of time it takes to fully tune a new system. In my experience, most "tuners" do a "good enough" job and IMO never come close to OEM setup.
For an example, Todd has more time tuning just his start up and idle map (much less cruise and WOT) than most people have into every project they have ever performed on their car. The end result is an aftermarket setup that starts / runs in 10 degree weather just as good as a 100 degree day (yes he has tested this, if the road is clear he's driving no matter what the weather).
His idle is so smooth he "shows off" by balancing a nickle on the intake manifold while it's running.
IMO anything less than Todd and Luke's approach to tuning an aftermarket system is half-assed.
I understand what you are saying. I had a project a while back to adapt Mikuni throttle bodies off a Suzuki GSX-R to a 944 with SDS EFI. Unfortunately, I had to sell the car for the purposes of saving for a house. I chose the 4-cylinder over getting rid of the 928. I would love to do ITBs on a 928 someday and obviously LH Jetronic will not suffice to adapt to that setup. So to answer your question, yes I will be tuning later on. I will be trying to get mine to run right (again) this weekend. If I get it to run right, great! Eventually the mod bug will take its course and cause me to start tearing into the car more.
I don't have hands on direct tuning experience on EFI cars but have numerous books at home that I continuously read to familiarize myself with aftermarket fuel injection. This even includes downloading copies of the manuals for Electromotive, Haltech, SDS and Megasquirt.
05-12-2010, 05:26 PM
#26
thanks for the answers!!!
i see the page simardracing.com and i like the tb!!! but firstly i have to finish my engine...
the doubt is because i seen a webber 44idf in a good price, but i am not really convinced...
other thing, here in spain the 19 of july open a new circuit!! is a 40 min of my house!!
look this page
http://www.circuitodenavarra.com/
i see the page simardracing.com and i like the tb!!! but firstly i have to finish my engine...
the doubt is because i seen a webber 44idf in a good price, but i am not really convinced...
other thing, here in spain the 19 of july open a new circuit!! is a 40 min of my house!!
look this page
http://www.circuitodenavarra.com/
05-12-2010, 08:59 PM
#29
Nordschleife Master
Isn't about the only area where carbs are still used is in drag racing, all about the peak HP, zero about the rest.
Carbs on a street driven car I think is unwise.
Carbs on a street driven car I think is unwise.
