Who's using the BlackBird Twin Air Filter System?
03-04-2009, 06:41 PM
#31
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The details of the dyno chart you posted are in plain English along with that chart on my website.
"928S4 with X-pipe with high flow cats, RMB, AFR. No tuning or changes made between stock filter dyno run and our TwinAir Filter System dyno run. 11.4 RWHP Gain and 15.8 Rear Wheel Torque gain!! Even more gains can be had with Fuel Tuning via remapping LH computer or adjusting fuel pressure."
This was also an independent customer dyno with no input from me. I know you have continuously "poo-pooed" his dyno tests, but no matter what you say they are just as valid as any you have ever posted or done yourself. I also have others from him after he adjusted fuel pressure to compensate for the increased airflow that would blow your doors off. I do not publish those publicly because not every customer has an adjustable regulator or a SharkTuner available to make changes to fuel delivery.
On a personal note from someone who has always considered you a fellow 928 friend, I would really like to know why you have such a hard-on for my BlackBird. You have hounded every thread about it with this same dribble over and over. To make it worse your comparisons are so unrelated it is silly. Comparing your test of a Bell Mouth where the Filter box was to my design is ridiculous and completely different. I know you are smarter than that and it casts doubts on your objectivity, much less your true understanding of real world air induction systems.
I have no doubt that a "cowl induction" system you always talk about will increase airflow, that was proven before you and I were even born. BUT, my BlackBird is primarily a Street 928 Product and does take advantage of another high pressure area that Porsche utilized to some degree with the factory air inlet system. It is not for someone who is willing to gut their A/C system, lift the rear of their hood, and/or make other similar invasive "non-street friendly" mods to accomadate the high pressure area at the cowl .
I am truly sorry that you can't seem comprehend the results of the combination of all of the elements of the BlackBird. You seem to try and pick apart different aspects, but without any first hand experience of the combination of ALL the elements going on, it seems you never will. Do some real testing on at least something similar to the COMPLETE BlackBird design and I am happily all ears all for a friendly discussion with you...even 20+ pages worth..:-)
I just honestly don't get, I know you pride yourself in showing everyone that you are always right and others are wrong at all expense. But just so you know (and I hope you care) this continuous attack on my BlackBird with BS unrelated comparisons is really starting to affect what I have thought for ages as a great 928 friendship between you and I.
Continue on as you think best, and keep up the good work on the track where I have no doubt you know your stuff...
Just leave the "Street 928" product designing to others... HA, HA,.. just so there is no doubt, that was meant as a joke!.
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David Roberts
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03-04-2009, 07:17 PM
#34
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Dave,
It wasnt an attack, there were some points that I thought I would bring up based on a couple of questions. Some even back up the possible advantages of the system. certainly, vs a stock air box and filter, your system would be much better. I was referring to the stock air box and KN flat filter.
Certainly , air flow into the engines is very complex and Im just trying to understand the reasons why it would work better than the stock platform.
I brought up my dynos because they were puzzeling. especially the large bell mouthed inlet with large 4" KN. With everything I do know regarding air flow, I would have bet it would have been the most optimal intake. (wasnt even possible to use it as it was sticking way over the hood hight) none the less, it lost hp vs the stock system. Not to say that there is not any reason why the Blackbird couldnt be better. maybe that dual feed to the MAF has other air flow characteristics that help even further than a bell mouth with a flat filter as found with the stock set up.
Those are some dramatic gains, and I would love to see other dyno comparisons as well.
You know its more about the discussion of air flow than right or wrong. Heck, I barely scratch the surface when it comes to knowledge of the topic. I would not be that surprised if what you have found is a lot better, if not just a little better than the stock system.
Ive been looking at dyno runs 'til blue in the face. There are so many times where i just shrug my shoulders. so many factors. When I see the dyno runs you posted, i don't see the tell tale clues of air flow being improved at the high rpm range like I would like to see before claims of improvement. However, as I validated in some of my posts prior, it is all about improving flow characteristics. Maybe what you have there is something that is doing more than meets the eyes.
I consider you a 928 friend as well. This is just a bunch of guys talking about a new concept, and I probably shouldn't have said anything. You are a valued member and supporter of the List and this kind of discussion was probably not done in the right way by me. So, I appologize for the tone of my posts.
Anyway, I think you should post the gains of others on your site, even if it combines fuel optimization.
It does look cool, its a nice design and probably does work too. Certainly when you need to remove the air box for reasons of room or supercharger,etc, its probably as good as it gets!
Mark
It wasnt an attack, there were some points that I thought I would bring up based on a couple of questions. Some even back up the possible advantages of the system. certainly, vs a stock air box and filter, your system would be much better. I was referring to the stock air box and KN flat filter.
Certainly , air flow into the engines is very complex and Im just trying to understand the reasons why it would work better than the stock platform.
I brought up my dynos because they were puzzeling. especially the large bell mouthed inlet with large 4" KN. With everything I do know regarding air flow, I would have bet it would have been the most optimal intake. (wasnt even possible to use it as it was sticking way over the hood hight) none the less, it lost hp vs the stock system. Not to say that there is not any reason why the Blackbird couldnt be better. maybe that dual feed to the MAF has other air flow characteristics that help even further than a bell mouth with a flat filter as found with the stock set up.
Those are some dramatic gains, and I would love to see other dyno comparisons as well.
You know its more about the discussion of air flow than right or wrong. Heck, I barely scratch the surface when it comes to knowledge of the topic. I would not be that surprised if what you have found is a lot better, if not just a little better than the stock system.
Ive been looking at dyno runs 'til blue in the face. There are so many times where i just shrug my shoulders. so many factors. When I see the dyno runs you posted, i don't see the tell tale clues of air flow being improved at the high rpm range like I would like to see before claims of improvement. However, as I validated in some of my posts prior, it is all about improving flow characteristics. Maybe what you have there is something that is doing more than meets the eyes.
I consider you a 928 friend as well. This is just a bunch of guys talking about a new concept, and I probably shouldn't have said anything. You are a valued member and supporter of the List and this kind of discussion was probably not done in the right way by me. So, I appologize for the tone of my posts.
Anyway, I think you should post the gains of others on your site, even if it combines fuel optimization.
It does look cool, its a nice design and probably does work too. Certainly when you need to remove the air box for reasons of room or supercharger,etc, its probably as good as it gets!
Mark
Mark,
The details of the dyno chart you posted are in plain English along with that chart on my website.
"928S4 with X-pipe with high flow cats, RMB, AFR. No tuning or changes made between stock filter dyno run and our TwinAir Filter System dyno run. 11.4 RWHP Gain and 15.8 Rear Wheel Torque gain!! Even more gains can be had with Fuel Tuning via remapping LH computer or adjusting fuel pressure."
This was also an independent customer dyno with no input from me. I know you have continuously "poo-pooed" his dyno tests, but no matter what you say they are just as valid as any you have ever posted or done yourself. I also have others from him after he adjusted fuel pressure to compensate for the increased airflow that would blow your doors off. I do not publish those publicly because not every customer has an adjustable regulator or a SharkTuner available to make changes to fuel delivery.
On a personal note from someone who has always considered you a fellow 928 friend, I would really like to know why you have such a hard-on for my BlackBird. You have hounded every thread about it with this same dribble over and over. To make it worse your comparisons are so unrelated it is silly. Comparing your test of a Bell Mouth where the Filter box was to my design is ridiculous and completely different. I know you are smarter than that and it casts doubts on your objectivity, much less your true understanding of real world air induction systems.
I have no doubt that a "cowl induction" system you always talk about will increase airflow, that was proven before you and I were even born. BUT, my BlackBird is primarily a Street 928 Product and does take advantage of another high pressure area that Porsche utilized to some degree with the factory air inlet system. It is not for someone who is willing to gut their A/C system, lift the rear of their hood, and/or make other similar invasive "non-street friendly" mods to accomadate the high pressure area at the cowl .
I am truly sorry that you can't seem comprehend the results of the combination of all of the elements of the BlackBird. You seem to try and pick apart different aspects, but without any first hand experience of the combination of ALL the elements going on, it seems you never will. Do some real testing on at least something similar to the COMPLETE BlackBird design and I am happily all ears all for a friendly discussion with you...even 20+ pages worth..:-)
I just honestly don't get, I know you pride yourself in showing everyone that you are always right and others are wrong at all expense. But just so you know (and I hope you care) this continuous attack on my BlackBird with BS unrelated comparisons is really starting to affect what I have thought for ages as a great 928 friendship between you and I.
Continue on as you think best, and keep up the good work on the track where I have no doubt you know your stuff...
Just leave the "Street 928" product designing to others... HA, HA,.. just so there is no doubt, that was meant as a joke!.
The details of the dyno chart you posted are in plain English along with that chart on my website.
"928S4 with X-pipe with high flow cats, RMB, AFR. No tuning or changes made between stock filter dyno run and our TwinAir Filter System dyno run. 11.4 RWHP Gain and 15.8 Rear Wheel Torque gain!! Even more gains can be had with Fuel Tuning via remapping LH computer or adjusting fuel pressure."
This was also an independent customer dyno with no input from me. I know you have continuously "poo-pooed" his dyno tests, but no matter what you say they are just as valid as any you have ever posted or done yourself. I also have others from him after he adjusted fuel pressure to compensate for the increased airflow that would blow your doors off. I do not publish those publicly because not every customer has an adjustable regulator or a SharkTuner available to make changes to fuel delivery.
On a personal note from someone who has always considered you a fellow 928 friend, I would really like to know why you have such a hard-on for my BlackBird. You have hounded every thread about it with this same dribble over and over. To make it worse your comparisons are so unrelated it is silly. Comparing your test of a Bell Mouth where the Filter box was to my design is ridiculous and completely different. I know you are smarter than that and it casts doubts on your objectivity, much less your true understanding of real world air induction systems.
I have no doubt that a "cowl induction" system you always talk about will increase airflow, that was proven before you and I were even born. BUT, my BlackBird is primarily a Street 928 Product and does take advantage of another high pressure area that Porsche utilized to some degree with the factory air inlet system. It is not for someone who is willing to gut their A/C system, lift the rear of their hood, and/or make other similar invasive "non-street friendly" mods to accomadate the high pressure area at the cowl .
I am truly sorry that you can't seem comprehend the results of the combination of all of the elements of the BlackBird. You seem to try and pick apart different aspects, but without any first hand experience of the combination of ALL the elements going on, it seems you never will. Do some real testing on at least something similar to the COMPLETE BlackBird design and I am happily all ears all for a friendly discussion with you...even 20+ pages worth..:-)
I just honestly don't get, I know you pride yourself in showing everyone that you are always right and others are wrong at all expense. But just so you know (and I hope you care) this continuous attack on my BlackBird with BS unrelated comparisons is really starting to affect what I have thought for ages as a great 928 friendship between you and I.
Continue on as you think best, and keep up the good work on the track where I have no doubt you know your stuff...
Just leave the "Street 928" product designing to others... HA, HA,.. just so there is no doubt, that was meant as a joke!.
03-04-2009, 07:46 PM
#35
Instructor
Thread Starter
HOLY CARP! I'm sorry I asked the question now!! lol!!
Sheesh .. c'mon guys, there's enough agro out there already without generating more here! I know you're both essentially on the same page, please let's keep it that way!
I admire anyone who has taken the development of the 928 to places Porsche never intended too and it's a credit to BOTH of you for all that you've done for us landshark 'enthusiasts'!
I'm going to the fridge for another beer! Any takers?
Sheesh .. c'mon guys, there's enough agro out there already without generating more here! I know you're both essentially on the same page, please let's keep it that way!
I admire anyone who has taken the development of the 928 to places Porsche never intended too and it's a credit to BOTH of you for all that you've done for us landshark 'enthusiasts'!
I'm going to the fridge for another beer! Any takers?
03-04-2009, 07:52 PM
#37
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03-04-2009, 08:03 PM
#39
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03-04-2009, 08:10 PM
#40
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03-04-2009, 08:13 PM
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more than once 
03-05-2009, 01:47 PM
#44
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03-05-2009, 01:58 PM
#45
Road Warrior
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I guess talking about the bb/intake is OT for this thread now, but I'll ask anyway - mark - did you ck the AFM at all when you tried your alternative intakes? if they did flow very well, the oem ecu can only adjust for fairly minor changes, and you may have gone super lean/lost power as a result when in fact it did flow a lot more. lots of moving parts in this stuff for sure, and that's with out even counting lips...