fans and flaps 88 s4
11-10-2008, 05:49 AM
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fans and flaps 88 s4
There is a big rubber plug/loom at the front/top of the radiator that is disconnected on my car. When I plug it together the air flaps continuosly open/close/open/close and i have no fans in at all even with the loom plugged together...just flaps open close open close.
My aircon blower is also out which is another problem...maybe a fuse...(any ideas) and to top it all off my heater asppears to be in all the time even with out the blower working...hot air out all vents...fun fun when it is 36degrees cel and 70 % humidity.
My aircon blower is also out which is another problem...maybe a fuse...(any ideas) and to top it all off my heater asppears to be in all the time even with out the blower working...hot air out all vents...fun fun when it is 36degrees cel and 70 % humidity.
11-10-2008, 07:18 AM
#2
You have problems with 2 independent Systems, however they are interconnected.
The Engine - Cooling Air Regulations System and the HVAC System.
The cooling air is regulated by the cooling flap system and the fan speed control which controls the quantity of cooling air through the radiator.
Flaps are controlled by and electric motor and linkage to the following settings:
Closed;
30% opened; and
100% opened.
The control unit for the flap and radiator cooling fan control is located next to the passenger seat under the cover held in place by two set screws. The control unit is just forward of the radio booster. Activation via this control unit is via relay XVIII on the central electric board.
The control unit process information from various sensors, such as:
coolant temperature sensor in the lower LH corner of the radiator in front of the radiator outlet;
ATF temperature on automatic transmission modle cars, by way of a temperature switch in the ATF cooling pipe on the transmission;
refrigerant pressure of AC by way of pressure sensor next to receiver dryer; and
the intake air temperature to the engine by way of temperature switch in intake manifold.
The control unit monitors the coolant temp, the refrigerant pressure for short circuits or breaks, and activated the cool air flaps to 100% open in case of a fault as well as turning both radiator fans to maximum speed.
The radiator cooling fans final stage is located on the front right hand side and this is the large plug fitted into the heat sink that I believe you are referring to.
The final stage receives a pulse width modulatig square signal from the control unit. This final stage consists of two independent, separately fused stage modules, each of whick activates a fadiator fan.
The following monitoring functions are performed by the final stage and reported back to the control unit.
Blocking of radiator fan;
Short circuit on therminals of the radiator fans;
Break in leads between battery + and final stage +:
final stage outlet and radiator fan + connection; and
the final stage ground and body ground.
I a fault occurs the cooling flaps will go to 100% opened and the still functioning radiator fans to maximum speed. The faulty radiator fan will be switched off.
The system is checked at 20 second intervals to determine whether the fault still exists.
The final stage requlates the fan speed by changin the voltage on the fan motors between 6.5 and 12 voltsanalog control signals from the control unit.
Many ownewrs disconnect the radiator temperature control flap circuit as they consider it too complicated, as a matter of fact Porsche discontinued installation in late MY as considered too complicated.
The system fitted to my car is working correctly and has done so for the 9 year of ownership with maintenance as required.
If you wish to disconnect the system then the "search" facility will tell you how this is done.
I have done a quick review of the fault finding for this system and it does not specifically mention the fans starting and stopping.
The HVAC system.
Now this is another good problem.
The HVAC system is a fully automatic cabin temperature control system mixing the hot and cold air via electric motor controlled mixing flaps and discharged into the cabin by various flaps which are vacuum operated via electrical operated selonide valves. The control unit is via the HVAC head unit that has the fan speed controller ****, the A/C on and off switch, the heating slider and the various flap position slider.
If your blower motor is not working then there could be a few problems, such as:
Resister Pack not operational and this is located in the inlet trunking just after the blower fan:
A blown fuse, or a
Burnt out motor.
To check for these the "search function" is your friend. Numerous posts and numerous threads have been written on the HVAC system and you should find all the answers you need. in addition you should check Greg Nichols Tips at the following location:
http://www.nichols.nu/tips.htm
If you are getting hot air into the cabin the most probable cause is a faulty heater control valve. Not one of Porsche's greatest designs, however, not very expensive to replace. It is vacuum operated and if the diaphram fails the valve fail safe position is fully opened, so hot water will continuously circulate through your heater.
The mixing flaps, is an electrically controlled stepper motor that positions the mixing flap via differential temperature monitoring of the cabin temperature and the outside air temperature. The cabin temperature is located behind the small grill in the facia in the centre of the dash. Air is sucked in via a small suction fan over the temperature sensor.
The outside air temperature is located in the alternator cooling suction pipe inside the front of the left hand fender or mudguard.
Again the "search" function is your friend.
If you have an open circuit in the temperature control circuit then the mixing flaps will go to full open position when you move the temperature slider off the lowest temperature positon and you will get hot air into the cabin.
It would appear that you have numerous faults in your HVAC system that will require extensive fault finding and rectification to get it operating correctly.
If you have to remove the blower motor then WYAIT i would also clean the inlet face of the refrigeration evaporator as it become extremely dirty and will block off the air flow to the cabin.
Again numerous procedures together with photographs are available on this forum via the search function.
In addition I would suggest that you purchase Jim Moorehouse's 928 Technical CD. Jim is a member of this forum and the CD are very cheap and will be the best investment you will make in maintaining your 928.
Tails 1990 928S4 Auto
The Engine - Cooling Air Regulations System and the HVAC System.
The cooling air is regulated by the cooling flap system and the fan speed control which controls the quantity of cooling air through the radiator.
Flaps are controlled by and electric motor and linkage to the following settings:
Closed;
30% opened; and
100% opened.
The control unit for the flap and radiator cooling fan control is located next to the passenger seat under the cover held in place by two set screws. The control unit is just forward of the radio booster. Activation via this control unit is via relay XVIII on the central electric board.
The control unit process information from various sensors, such as:
coolant temperature sensor in the lower LH corner of the radiator in front of the radiator outlet;
ATF temperature on automatic transmission modle cars, by way of a temperature switch in the ATF cooling pipe on the transmission;
refrigerant pressure of AC by way of pressure sensor next to receiver dryer; and
the intake air temperature to the engine by way of temperature switch in intake manifold.
The control unit monitors the coolant temp, the refrigerant pressure for short circuits or breaks, and activated the cool air flaps to 100% open in case of a fault as well as turning both radiator fans to maximum speed.
The radiator cooling fans final stage is located on the front right hand side and this is the large plug fitted into the heat sink that I believe you are referring to.
The final stage receives a pulse width modulatig square signal from the control unit. This final stage consists of two independent, separately fused stage modules, each of whick activates a fadiator fan.
The following monitoring functions are performed by the final stage and reported back to the control unit.
Blocking of radiator fan;
Short circuit on therminals of the radiator fans;
Break in leads between battery + and final stage +:
final stage outlet and radiator fan + connection; and
the final stage ground and body ground.
I a fault occurs the cooling flaps will go to 100% opened and the still functioning radiator fans to maximum speed. The faulty radiator fan will be switched off.
The system is checked at 20 second intervals to determine whether the fault still exists.
The final stage requlates the fan speed by changin the voltage on the fan motors between 6.5 and 12 voltsanalog control signals from the control unit.
Many ownewrs disconnect the radiator temperature control flap circuit as they consider it too complicated, as a matter of fact Porsche discontinued installation in late MY as considered too complicated.
The system fitted to my car is working correctly and has done so for the 9 year of ownership with maintenance as required.
If you wish to disconnect the system then the "search" facility will tell you how this is done.
I have done a quick review of the fault finding for this system and it does not specifically mention the fans starting and stopping.
The HVAC system.
Now this is another good problem.
The HVAC system is a fully automatic cabin temperature control system mixing the hot and cold air via electric motor controlled mixing flaps and discharged into the cabin by various flaps which are vacuum operated via electrical operated selonide valves. The control unit is via the HVAC head unit that has the fan speed controller ****, the A/C on and off switch, the heating slider and the various flap position slider.
If your blower motor is not working then there could be a few problems, such as:
Resister Pack not operational and this is located in the inlet trunking just after the blower fan:
A blown fuse, or a
Burnt out motor.
To check for these the "search function" is your friend. Numerous posts and numerous threads have been written on the HVAC system and you should find all the answers you need. in addition you should check Greg Nichols Tips at the following location:
http://www.nichols.nu/tips.htm
If you are getting hot air into the cabin the most probable cause is a faulty heater control valve. Not one of Porsche's greatest designs, however, not very expensive to replace. It is vacuum operated and if the diaphram fails the valve fail safe position is fully opened, so hot water will continuously circulate through your heater.
The mixing flaps, is an electrically controlled stepper motor that positions the mixing flap via differential temperature monitoring of the cabin temperature and the outside air temperature. The cabin temperature is located behind the small grill in the facia in the centre of the dash. Air is sucked in via a small suction fan over the temperature sensor.
The outside air temperature is located in the alternator cooling suction pipe inside the front of the left hand fender or mudguard.
Again the "search" function is your friend.
If you have an open circuit in the temperature control circuit then the mixing flaps will go to full open position when you move the temperature slider off the lowest temperature positon and you will get hot air into the cabin.
It would appear that you have numerous faults in your HVAC system that will require extensive fault finding and rectification to get it operating correctly.
If you have to remove the blower motor then WYAIT i would also clean the inlet face of the refrigeration evaporator as it become extremely dirty and will block off the air flow to the cabin.
Again numerous procedures together with photographs are available on this forum via the search function.
In addition I would suggest that you purchase Jim Moorehouse's 928 Technical CD. Jim is a member of this forum and the CD are very cheap and will be the best investment you will make in maintaining your 928.
Tails 1990 928S4 Auto
11-10-2008, 07:49 AM
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Tails
my god I am going to have to digest all of this.
I will dissect this tomorrow morning ..it is late and I am out of light and brain power.
many thanks for the post mate.
Peter
my god I am going to have to digest all of this.
I will dissect this tomorrow morning ..it is late and I am out of light and brain power.
many thanks for the post mate.
Peter
11-10-2008, 10:28 AM
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OK a simpler version:
The flaps have already been disconnected - apparently because they just cycle - they have no electrical effect on the cooling fans - so just unplug when they are fully open. Unless its very cold where you are they don't have much benefit. The failure is similar to the track failures on the headlights - its the position feedback circuit that causes the cycling - however this is much more awkward to fix due to location...
For the Fans - check fuses on the CE panel & power to the front control unit (plug)... and connections to the fan controller.
HVAC blower sounds like a relay issue (does fan work in DEF mode?) if yes change blower relay.
otherwise it may be the resistor pack - but not so likely.
The constant heat - do any flaps move with the arflow flap slider? - if not I'd suspect a vacuum problem - you must have good vacuum to get the actuators to work - including the hot water valve (which defaults to hot).
Alan
The flaps have already been disconnected - apparently because they just cycle - they have no electrical effect on the cooling fans - so just unplug when they are fully open. Unless its very cold where you are they don't have much benefit. The failure is similar to the track failures on the headlights - its the position feedback circuit that causes the cycling - however this is much more awkward to fix due to location...
For the Fans - check fuses on the CE panel & power to the front control unit (plug)... and connections to the fan controller.
HVAC blower sounds like a relay issue (does fan work in DEF mode?) if yes change blower relay.
otherwise it may be the resistor pack - but not so likely.
The constant heat - do any flaps move with the arflow flap slider? - if not I'd suspect a vacuum problem - you must have good vacuum to get the actuators to work - including the hot water valve (which defaults to hot).
Alan
11-10-2008, 10:34 AM
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IF you are always getting hot air out of your vents no matter the setting on your HVAC cockpit controls, then your heater control valve is stuck open. It can be stuck open because it isn't getting its vacuum signal...or it could be stuck open because it has failed. It's located just underneath your air filter housing. Pull the housing and you'll see a half black half white plastic two-piece unit connected to an obvious black coolant hose and also connected to an obvious vacuum line.
You can fix the vacuum problem, if any, or you can replace the failed heater control valve, if necessary...for a proper fix, or you can disconnect the arm between the black half and the white half of the heater control valve by pushing on the round plastic union that joins the one to the other on the arm. Once disconnected, you can simply push the control arm by hand to close the heater valve. Tape/wire as desired and you will have no more heat. Ever (well, until you push the control arm the other direction).
You can fix the vacuum problem, if any, or you can replace the failed heater control valve, if necessary...for a proper fix, or you can disconnect the arm between the black half and the white half of the heater control valve by pushing on the round plastic union that joins the one to the other on the arm. Once disconnected, you can simply push the control arm by hand to close the heater valve. Tape/wire as desired and you will have no more heat. Ever (well, until you push the control arm the other direction).
11-10-2008, 10:35 AM
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Peter,
As usual, tails gives good advice. I certainly second his suggestion to get Jim's CD set. You might also want to go to
http://nichols.nu/tips.htm and do some reading.
If you will send me an email thru normal channels (not the system on this forum), I will send you a paper on the HVAC system that will probably help you.
My email address is techAT928gt.com - change the AT to @ so we can defeat the spam robots trolling the web.
BTW - one of the first things to try on your non-working blower is the relay. You can swap the blower relay and the defrost relay to check...
As usual, tails gives good advice. I certainly second his suggestion to get Jim's CD set. You might also want to go to
http://nichols.nu/tips.htm and do some reading.
If you will send me an email thru normal channels (not the system on this forum), I will send you a paper on the HVAC system that will probably help you.
My email address is techAT928gt.com - change the AT to @ so we can defeat the spam robots trolling the web.
BTW - one of the first things to try on your non-working blower is the relay. You can swap the blower relay and the defrost relay to check...
11-11-2008, 07:40 AM
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Peter,
As usual, tails gives good advice. I certainly second his suggestion to get Jim's CD set. You might also want to go to
http://nichols.nu/tips.htm and do some reading.
If you will send me an email thru normal channels (not the system on this forum), I will send you a paper on the HVAC system that will probably help you.
My email address is techAT928gt.com - change the AT to @ so we can defeat the spam robots trolling the web.
BTW - one of the first things to try on your non-working blower is the relay. You can swap the blower relay and the defrost relay to check...
As usual, tails gives good advice. I certainly second his suggestion to get Jim's CD set. You might also want to go to
http://nichols.nu/tips.htm and do some reading.
If you will send me an email thru normal channels (not the system on this forum), I will send you a paper on the HVAC system that will probably help you.
My email address is techAT928gt.com - change the AT to @ so we can defeat the spam robots trolling the web.
BTW - one of the first things to try on your non-working blower is the relay. You can swap the blower relay and the defrost relay to check...
I got home and the fans were not in and yet it was running at about a 1/3rd to 1/2 on the guage.
I popped the bonnet and thought now is the time to work thru the fan fault I posted earlier.
So I had read a bunch of posts and tech tips earlier and thought on a whim to push down the bonnet switch and what do you know...both fans came to life. So i was going to work through to the switch in lower left radiator and check for power etc..and the fans dropped out. I wiggled the bonnet switch and nothing so I thought it was power. Pulled the switch and there was and is 11.8 volts at one of the wires...when I bridge the wires voltage drops to zero...so I cut the switch out and repeated the process..single wire nearly 12 volts bridge the wires or twitch them together and voltage TOTALLY DISAPPEARS. So now it is cold and wouldnt kick fans in anyway. Has anyone checked the operation of the bonnet switch in the past...I thought from the readings that it was a plain old switchable power in power out source to the rest of the switches such as freon high temp which kicked in when required. Then I thought it might be a dirty contact somewhere that when loaded up dropped off on the voltage side. I went thru fuses and gave them a wiggle and checked voltage...all good. Note that I found 2 pretty crusty fuses in 28 and 29 so replaced with 25 amp fuses as thats all i had...will replace with correct 30 at a later date. Even though it is cold now that bonnet switch shouldnt drop off when bridged with the other wire to switch as its just an in and out is'nt it.
i am going to turn ignition on and check power at the lower LH radiator temp switch and see if that has any action
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11-11-2008, 07:47 AM
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It is just a sensed switch (no power), obviously you have seen it works correctly. Normally one side is weakly pulled to 12v - the other side is ground. when the switch closes the signal goes to ground.
This feeds the fan controller (and alarm) and on some years the hood light too (all indirectly).
The only thing that switches the fans directly is the final stage - the finned black thing with the plug on top. Its control signals come only from the fan controller.. that has all the sensor inputs that control the fans & flaps operation.
Its important to know what correct operation looks like before you try to fix something... In the case of this car ask or get the manuals - its often much more complex than Detroit would do...
As to your fans issue - I have no idea whats going on since you didn't explain it well - you talk of fan in/out and 1/3 to 1/2 on the guage... what does it all mean...?
To get good help you need to be clear about exactly what the problem is - what you have tried already & any specific results you think are in error.
Also here be sure you know what the correct behavour is. I will tell you several times folks have asked abpout a problem (very badly) and only on page 3 or 4 of the thread do we conclude its actually working as it is supposed to - and they just had the wrong idea about it all along....
Alan
This feeds the fan controller (and alarm) and on some years the hood light too (all indirectly).
The only thing that switches the fans directly is the final stage - the finned black thing with the plug on top. Its control signals come only from the fan controller.. that has all the sensor inputs that control the fans & flaps operation.
Its important to know what correct operation looks like before you try to fix something... In the case of this car ask or get the manuals - its often much more complex than Detroit would do...
As to your fans issue - I have no idea whats going on since you didn't explain it well - you talk of fan in/out and 1/3 to 1/2 on the guage... what does it all mean...?
To get good help you need to be clear about exactly what the problem is - what you have tried already & any specific results you think are in error.
Also here be sure you know what the correct behavour is. I will tell you several times folks have asked abpout a problem (very badly) and only on page 3 or 4 of the thread do we conclude its actually working as it is supposed to - and they just had the wrong idea about it all along....
Alan
11-11-2008, 08:37 PM
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It is just a sensed switch (no power), obviously you have seen it works correctly. Normally one side is weakly pulled to 12v - the other side is ground. when the switch closes the signal goes to ground.
This feeds the fan controller (and alarm) and on some years the hood light too (all indirectly).
The only thing that switches the fans directly is the final stage - the finned black thing with the plug on top. Its control signals come only from the fan controller.. that has all the sensor inputs that control the fans & flaps operation.
Its important to know what correct operation looks like before you try to fix something... In the case of this car ask or get the manuals - its often much more complex than Detroit would do...
As to your fans issue - I have no idea whats going on since you didn't explain it well - you talk of fan in/out and 1/3 to 1/2 on the guage... what does it all mean...?
To get good help you need to be clear about exactly what the problem is - what you have tried already & any specific results you think are in error.
Also here be sure you know what the correct behavour is. I will tell you several times folks have asked abpout a problem (very badly) and only on page 3 or 4 of the thread do we conclude its actually working as it is supposed to - and they just had the wrong idea about it all along....
Alan
This feeds the fan controller (and alarm) and on some years the hood light too (all indirectly).
The only thing that switches the fans directly is the final stage - the finned black thing with the plug on top. Its control signals come only from the fan controller.. that has all the sensor inputs that control the fans & flaps operation.
Its important to know what correct operation looks like before you try to fix something... In the case of this car ask or get the manuals - its often much more complex than Detroit would do...
As to your fans issue - I have no idea whats going on since you didn't explain it well - you talk of fan in/out and 1/3 to 1/2 on the guage... what does it all mean...?
To get good help you need to be clear about exactly what the problem is - what you have tried already & any specific results you think are in error.
Also here be sure you know what the correct behavour is. I will tell you several times folks have asked abpout a problem (very badly) and only on page 3 or 4 of the thread do we conclude its actually working as it is supposed to - and they just had the wrong idea about it all along....
Alan
wise words that i will heed.
Its all in the desription of the error as you say.
I will try.
My main fault is that fans dont kick in at all under normal operation even when the temp guage is at half way. I was going to check the temp sensor in the lower left radiator for power and if I had power in I was going to bridge it (faulty sensor switch). If the fan(s) still didnt work and had power at the motor well then we know its a fan motor.
So when i pulled up yesterday the temp guage was 1/2 way ...no fans working....after reading a thread yesterday I knew that when bonnet was up the bonnet switch had to be taped closed for fans to work. I did this and the fans fired in to life....within 30secs the switch button pushed its way thru the tape and the fans stopped working, so I retaped the switch closed and no fans.
Thinking that it had cooled down sufficently to not need the fans I started the car and let it idle. It idled for around 5 minutes and got to 1/2 way on the temp guage and was getting past that with the bonnet switch bypassed (wires twitched together) and still no fans. Thinking that I should shut it down as it was getting quite hot by this stage I shut it down and with the bonnet switch bypassed the fans should have cut in for the 5 minutes as presribed but they didnt. So at this stage I walked away. Cutting the bonnet switch out of the loom and twitching the bonnet switch wires together is the same as the switch being depressed (closed). I was going to work my way thru the
http//nichols.nu/tip163.htm Cooling Fan Troubleshhoting Guide but only got this far.
11-12-2008, 10:13 AM
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OK the fans run when they need to - 1/2 way on the guage may not be far enough. Try 3/4 before you assume a problem. They don't 'afterrun' unless the engine is hot - so far everything 'could' be normal... you need to get it hotter...
The fans should run continuously with the AC on - as long as the control signal to the AC clutch is operational (the rest of the AC doesn't actually have to work correctly)...
This can get you a test of the basic fan operation...
You can also simulate a hot engine by unplugging the temp switch at the rear of the intake plenum on top and connecting the 2 wires together - then the afterrunning should kick in. The hood switch does not disable fan operation when the engine is running - only when it is stopped. The thinking is - you'd be stupid to put your hand near the fans when the engine is running - but you might not think about it when the engine is stopped (heat soak can cause the fans to kick in at any time...).
Alan
The fans should run continuously with the AC on - as long as the control signal to the AC clutch is operational (the rest of the AC doesn't actually have to work correctly)...
This can get you a test of the basic fan operation...
You can also simulate a hot engine by unplugging the temp switch at the rear of the intake plenum on top and connecting the 2 wires together - then the afterrunning should kick in. The hood switch does not disable fan operation when the engine is running - only when it is stopped. The thinking is - you'd be stupid to put your hand near the fans when the engine is running - but you might not think about it when the engine is stopped (heat soak can cause the fans to kick in at any time...).
Alan
Last edited by Alan; 11-12-2008 at 02:29 PM.
11-12-2008, 02:25 PM
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So connecting the wires together makes it think the hood is open...
928 engines run hot - at least they seem very hot compared to other iron - it is normal. (Porsche air/oil cooled engines run very hot...)
Alan
11-12-2008, 07:08 PM
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I'd test the switch - I believe the hood switch is normally open (e.g. closed when the hood is open) the opposite of what you said...
So connecting the wires together makes it think the hood is open...
928 engines run hot - at least they seem very hot compared to other iron - it is normal. (Porsche air/oil cooled engines run very hot...)
Alan
So connecting the wires together makes it think the hood is open...
928 engines run hot - at least they seem very hot compared to other iron - it is normal. (Porsche air/oil cooled engines run very hot...)
Alan
you are definetely right about the bonnet switch open when Bonnet closed and switch closed when bonnet open. i backprobed the switch and it has continiuty under the conditions above.
I went back to the 28-29 fuses and cut a nail file tip off and cleaned the contacts and you wont believe it ...fans are now operational.
Bonnet switch is no good so need a new switch but apart from that the system works.
the only problem i have now is that the air plaps cycle open closed continuosly until i unplug the loom. Is this the control box located near my passenger seat.
Many thanx for the walk thru your advice has been invaluable
11-12-2008, 07:14 PM
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Oz.............the control box is near the passenger seat on LHD cars. In your country I cant imaginge why you need the flaps so an easy fix is to remove the fuse when the flaps are full open.
There's also a flap delete thread you'll find with search; Porsche did delete the flaps themselves after a certain MY.
There's also a flap delete thread you'll find with search; Porsche did delete the flaps themselves after a certain MY.
11-12-2008, 07:22 PM
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Oz.............the control box is near the passenger seat on LHD cars. In your country I cant imaginge why you need the flaps so an easy fix is to remove the fuse when the flaps are full open.
There's also a flap delete thread you'll find with search; Porsche did delete the flaps themselves after a certain MY.
There's also a flap delete thread you'll find with search; Porsche did delete the flaps themselves after a certain MY.
I gotta LHDriver so yes it is my passenger side then...thanx
So where is it on the RHD carsso i can point the wrecker in the right direction.
I am old fashion and would like all as it should be, so would like to repair the problem. I hate seeing a loom not connected.
I have used the search tool on the topic and geez its hard to get the right info.
Dont want to just change it out if its not faulty as $$ wasted.
Regards
peter
11-12-2008, 07:28 PM
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Peter
It's on the passenger side on RHD also (Left hand side looking forwards - Port to the sailors out there). Outboard of the seat under the carpeted cover that is held on with two thumbscrew.
Shares the space with the OEM amplifier if the amp still there.
It's on the passenger side on RHD also (Left hand side looking forwards - Port to the sailors out there). Outboard of the seat under the carpeted cover that is held on with two thumbscrew.
Shares the space with the OEM amplifier if the amp still there.