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Suspension upgrade on my 1991 GT

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Old 06-15-2009, 07:42 PM
  #46  
Okv
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Originally Posted by Carl Fausett
Oyvind: reading this thread through... I am looking to hear that your springs are not "progressive".
I hope they are linear or "static" springs. If not, that could be the cause of your soft corner turn-in.

I can tell you that a 928 (when properly setup), is not a handful to drive. You can point in where you want to go, the cornering response is immediate but not twitchy, it has neither understeer nor oversteer, and a slight amount of throttle-oversteer when you want it.

I mean that last bit (throttle oversteer) in BOTH directions. Accel of course, but I use the decel throttle oversteer more. I slap the throttle shut for a moment at corner entry after the downshift has been done and the weight transfer has taken its set. The rear will start to drift in the direction I want, and then I throttle-on again to cancel the drift and accelerate through the apex. Its a nice 7 to 11 degree drift angle. Fast. The 928 does it very well.
The springs are definitely linear.

I would not say it is anything like a "handful to drive."
It is more stable and has a lot more grip than "normal" cars, actually, you can not compare it to an ordinary car, not to mention the SUV-variations.
You pass them on the inside in hairpins without drama.
But, this is also to be expected.

So, I enjoy driving it, but it is still not quite how I want it.
Grip is nice now, and, yes, it is very nice to adjust with the throttle in turns, you can feel it pushing slightly long before it breaks loose and goes wide.
Actually the feel of throttle control is better and more fun than my Cayman, which tend to rotate more suddenly and loose the grip, rather than increasing the slip angle gently.

I believe the braking instability problem has greatly improved with the new a-arms.
I will have to confirm this, as such experiments are not part of normal driving on a trip.


What I am not happy with is:

1. Steering feels mushy and without direct contact with the wheels; when turning the wheel, there seems to be a delay and spongy feel, like the steering shaft is made of rubber.

2. Transient stability is not good; it tends to have delayed movements sideways.


Just back from a trip to Gol, annual Porsche Club Norway (Nisse) weekend.
Yesterday the shark enjoyed 6 mountain passes on our way back home, covering a modest 500 km (300 miles?), but most of this on fun mountain roads, mostly deserted from traffic.

The trip kind of confirms that my choice of springs was correct, as the communist-like-maintenance of the Nisse roads make them very bad some places.
Pot-holes, deep tracks, actually, all kinds of holes, including big ones.
The test criteria was that the Erdinger weiss-beer in the cooler should be intact on arrival, and it passed.
Old 06-15-2009, 07:55 PM
  #47  
Okv
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Originally Posted by Carl Fausett
Vilhuer's explanation above is spot-on. Because of the different lengths of the early and late-model upper a-arms, some camber adjustment via shims under the mounts may be neccesary.

NEWS: we are redisigning the steel upper a-arms to incorporate a greasable, rebuildable ball joint. Look for this new and improved upper a a-rm to be available in a month or so.
Carl, thank you for your interest, and also for providing aftermarket parts for a car that has been obsolete for several years.. .

To clarify my questions:

- I have the later model car, which has the SHORTER arms original.
- I experience that your new a-arms are SHORTER than my late-model, SHORT original arms.

So, my question is;

- What is the actual length of your Carl steel a-arms?

- Also, I experience that the joint on the new steel arms restrict movement so that the suspension movement in extension is limited by 20 mm. Is it right that the new arms restrict movement?

You mention a new. improved design soon available;
I had the understanding that the steel arms already incorporate a rebuildable, greasable joint?
Old 06-15-2009, 08:56 PM
  #48  
Lizard928
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Originally Posted by Carl Fausett
I mean that last bit (throttle oversteer) in BOTH directions. Accel of course, but I use the decel throttle oversteer more. I slap the throttle shut for a moment at corner entry after the downshift has been done and the weight transfer has taken its set. The rear will start to drift in the direction I want, and then I throttle-on again to cancel the drift and accelerate through the apex. Its a nice 7 to 11 degree drift angle. Fast. The 928 does it very well.
If you run a slightly higher rear brake bias you can get this same effect just from proper trail braking, which is far easy to modulate than engine braking, and more effective as you can maintain a higher entrance speed.

And yes the later arms are shorter, and you still need to shim them by around 4mm to obtain stock settings.
Old 06-15-2009, 10:23 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Lizard931
If you run a slightly higher rear brake bias you can get this same effect just from proper trail braking, which is far easy to modulate than engine braking, and more effective as you can maintain a higher entrance speed.
...
You can also use the engine to add rear bias, by just going off the throttle and not disengage the clutch while braking for the corner.
May be easier and more predictable than doing sudden lift-off?

In the old days, when driving on snow, it was a good technique to use the engine to get the car sideways before entering the turn.
Now, this is not quite necessary anymore, as some of us now have mid-engine cars with better handling, or, perhaps we just do not go sideways through every corner anymore.

On the fwd cars braking while turning in was often required to get it to turn properly; the weight transfer towards the front unloads the rear wheels, which will then brake loose, and the car goes sideways.
Since the rear usually is light on a fwd, it is easy to catch, and by using the throttle you can then go sideways through the turn.

Now, go and try this with a 911..

For normal driving, especially on solid surface, not gravel or snow, I really see no reason to brake in turn-in.
If this is necessary to get the car to turn, something is wrong with the suspension.
On the track, or similar competition situations, when pushing the limits, that is entirely a different subject.
Old 06-16-2009, 06:39 PM
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1. Steering feels mushy and without direct contact with the wheels; when turning the wheel, there seems to be a delay and spongy feel, like the steering shaft is made of rubber.

2. Transient stability is not good; it tends to have delayed movements sideways.
Try this simple test. Have a partner sit in the car, with the key on (steering wheel unlocked) but engine not running. You lay down next to the front tires in such a location that you can see the tie rod ends where they enter the steering rack and the steering rack itself. Bring a flashlight with you.

Have your partner turn the steering wheel left and right a little bit.

Observe whether the delay in the steering wheel movement being transfered to the tires is:
a) tie rod end slop (replace)
b) steering rack moving on its mounts (replace with solid rack mounts) or
c) tie rod ends moving up and down in the steering rack (rebuild the rack or replace with professionaly rebuilt unit).
Old 06-16-2009, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Carl Fausett
Try this simple test. Have a partner sit in the car, with the key on (steering wheel unlocked) but engine not running. You lay down next to the front tires in such a location that you can see the tie rod ends where they enter the steering rack and the steering rack itself. Bring a flashlight with you.

Have your partner turn the steering wheel left and right a little bit.

Observe whether the delay in the steering wheel movement being transfered to the tires is:
a) tie rod end slop (replace)
b) steering rack moving on its mounts (replace with solid rack mounts) or
c) tie rod ends moving up and down in the steering rack (rebuild the rack or replace with professionaly rebuilt unit).
Yes, I will check this.
I have already planned to do a more comprehensive test to verify where the steering sloppiness is introduced.
It has to be somewhere between the steering wheel and the road.
So, it should definitely be possible to find.

Wouldn't it be funny if it turns out to be the tires..



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