The Boost with My Roots Blower?
05-07-2003, 10:09 PM
#31
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Andy,
Adjust the throttle cable to wide open throttle. Make sure the throttle body plate is also at wide open throttle. The Bowden cable (TV cable) should not be a problem. The TV cable controls shift timing. Early shifts = loose cable. Late shifts = cable too tight. If you have a problem with it, just let me know.
If I were you, before I would book any dyno time, I would make absolutely sure that my boost is not over 6 PSI.
I would also verify my fuel pressure with a gauge. The idle system pressure for an S4 is 48 PSI. I would increase the fuel pressure to at least 58 PSI.
Did you disable your knock sensor? If you did because there was no room under the custom intake, you can reposition them at either side of the block. The sensor is very important for knock detection.
I wish you the best of luck.
A picture is……………………………………
<img src="http://www.mastertechtrans.com/post/piston.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Adjust the throttle cable to wide open throttle. Make sure the throttle body plate is also at wide open throttle. The Bowden cable (TV cable) should not be a problem. The TV cable controls shift timing. Early shifts = loose cable. Late shifts = cable too tight. If you have a problem with it, just let me know.
If I were you, before I would book any dyno time, I would make absolutely sure that my boost is not over 6 PSI.
I would also verify my fuel pressure with a gauge. The idle system pressure for an S4 is 48 PSI. I would increase the fuel pressure to at least 58 PSI.
Did you disable your knock sensor? If you did because there was no room under the custom intake, you can reposition them at either side of the block. The sensor is very important for knock detection.
I wish you the best of luck.
A picture is……………………………………
<img src="http://www.mastertechtrans.com/post/piston.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
05-07-2003, 10:47 PM
#32
Drifting
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Steve,
Thanks for the reply.
I won't go to the dyno for max HP/TQ reading.
I feel the need to go to the dyno to actually get a good read on the pressure. At this point I am satisfied that with the 5.25" crank pulley that I will have about 6 psi. I also believe that it will only reach 6 psi under load.
I have installed new Ford Motorsport 36# injectors to replace the stock 19# injectors. I believe then my fuel pressure will be quite a bit lower because of this. I also have an adjustable RRFPR that raises fuel pressure on a 1:1 ratio with boost pressure.
I have installed brand new knock sensors.
You must tell us if that picture is of a S4 piston that was run in a supercharged engine with more than 6 psi and non intercooled.
Thanks,
Andy K
Thanks for the reply.
I won't go to the dyno for max HP/TQ reading.
I feel the need to go to the dyno to actually get a good read on the pressure. At this point I am satisfied that with the 5.25" crank pulley that I will have about 6 psi. I also believe that it will only reach 6 psi under load.
I have installed new Ford Motorsport 36# injectors to replace the stock 19# injectors. I believe then my fuel pressure will be quite a bit lower because of this. I also have an adjustable RRFPR that raises fuel pressure on a 1:1 ratio with boost pressure.
I have installed brand new knock sensors.
You must tell us if that picture is of a S4 piston that was run in a supercharged engine with more than 6 psi and non intercooled.
Thanks,
Andy K
05-07-2003, 11:56 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Team work!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Tony, Andy, and Chris: thank you for your kind words. To me, it’s lots of fun number crunching, and I’m thrilled that I’m able to help out fellow 928ers.
Tony, just for the record I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been to your site for assistance and found it; thank you and keep up the good work!
Andy, other people I’ve talked to found the Supercharger Horsepower Calculator to be right in the ballpark horsepower-wise. It does have a shortcoming where it doesn’t take into account the compression ratio of the engine.
I think we’re all looking forward to hear how your first dyno-day goes!
Tony, just for the record I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been to your site for assistance and found it; thank you and keep up the good work!
Andy, other people I’ve talked to found the Supercharger Horsepower Calculator to be right in the ballpark horsepower-wise. It does have a shortcoming where it doesn’t take into account the compression ratio of the engine.
I think we’re all looking forward to hear how your first dyno-day goes!
05-08-2003, 12:32 AM
#34
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Originally posted by GoRideSno:
I have installed new Ford Motorsport 36# injectors to replace the stock 19# injectors. I believe then my fuel pressure will be quite a bit lower because of this. I also have an adjustable RRFPR that raises fuel pressure on a 1:1 ratio with boost pressure
I have installed new Ford Motorsport 36# injectors to replace the stock 19# injectors. I believe then my fuel pressure will be quite a bit lower because of this. I also have an adjustable RRFPR that raises fuel pressure on a 1:1 ratio with boost pressure
You must tell us if that picture is of a S4 piston that was run in a supercharged engine with more than 6 psi and non intercooled.
Last edited by Z; 07-19-2003 at 07:34 PM.
05-08-2003, 02:07 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> I have a 93 Audi S4 5 cylinder...9:1 compression running 21-24 psig at the manifold...yes that is gauge pressure, not absolute pressure. The "recommended" limit on such a compression ratio is about 10 psi, but my motor continues to survive with 205,000 miles on the clock. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Assuming an 85% intercooler efficiency and proper air/fuel management for a 9:1 compression ratio engine, 21 psi will indeed work as far as ‘obeying’ the max allowable ‘arbitrary’ max combustion chamber temp of 1,075. The calculated temp is 1,074.93, and supports why you are able to run it with no problems as you’re operating below the engine’s detonation thresh-hold.
Where did the ‘recommended’ limit come from? Maybe it is based upon mechanical stress concerns versus detonation considerations.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Now if I could only run that much boost through the 928...? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The following assumes proper air/fuel management.
John, running 8:1 compression ratio leaves you with almost the-sky-is-the-limit as far as boost is concerned and really not worrying about detonation. More than likely, the amount of boost that you can successfully run will be limited by whatever your turbo compressor map looks like and it’s efficiency sweet-spot.
Using a conservative 80% intercooler efficiency with an 8:1 compression ratio reveals that you can theoretically run up to 27 psi with a resultant combustion chamber temperature of 1073.54; man, that’s a lot of boost!
As a comparison, bumping up the intercooler efficiency to 85% and you’re at 42 psi and 1074.97!
With these kind of chamber temps, you can afford to get as aggressive as you’d like with turbo selection and related boost.
I’m looking forward to when you’ve got your car together and on the dyno too, as you guys are inspirations to us all.
Where did the ‘recommended’ limit come from? Maybe it is based upon mechanical stress concerns versus detonation considerations.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Now if I could only run that much boost through the 928...? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The following assumes proper air/fuel management.
John, running 8:1 compression ratio leaves you with almost the-sky-is-the-limit as far as boost is concerned and really not worrying about detonation. More than likely, the amount of boost that you can successfully run will be limited by whatever your turbo compressor map looks like and it’s efficiency sweet-spot.
Using a conservative 80% intercooler efficiency with an 8:1 compression ratio reveals that you can theoretically run up to 27 psi with a resultant combustion chamber temperature of 1073.54; man, that’s a lot of boost!
As a comparison, bumping up the intercooler efficiency to 85% and you’re at 42 psi and 1074.97!
With these kind of chamber temps, you can afford to get as aggressive as you’d like with turbo selection and related boost.
I’m looking forward to when you’ve got your car together and on the dyno too, as you guys are inspirations to us all.
05-08-2003, 02:14 PM
#36
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My compressors will flow to a Pressure ratio of about 2.3 before they fall off the map...
I am shooting for a PR of nearly 2.0 (about 14 psig at sea level), this still leaves a bit of conservation for the driveline and the internals of the motor.
Supplying fuel at these boost levels is the issue. I can afford to go to about twice the injector size with the setup I have....perhaps a bit more.
I'd say 14 is a good number for me.
I am shooting for a PR of nearly 2.0 (about 14 psig at sea level), this still leaves a bit of conservation for the driveline and the internals of the motor.
Supplying fuel at these boost levels is the issue. I can afford to go to about twice the injector size with the setup I have....perhaps a bit more.
I'd say 14 is a good number for me.
05-09-2003, 01:03 AM
#37
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GoRideSno-boost - You probably have found this out already but I finally saw my neighbor again with the Lightning.
He says his boost is evident as soon as he pushes on the throttle.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
He says his boost is evident as soon as he pushes on the throttle.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
05-09-2003, 02:09 AM
#38
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"""Using a conservative 80% intercooler efficiency with an 8:1 compression ratio reveals that you can theoretically run up to 27 psi with a resultant combustion chamber temperature of 1073.54; man, that’s a lot of boost!"""
How do you intercool the roots system? is there a cooler that sits directly below it...before the intake plenum of the motor? Any links to pictures?
What kind of Hp/TQ numbers do you think would come from a 6L, 32v motor,forged, with 8:1 CR and a cooler? <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
had to throw that one in the calculator.... <a href="http://www.superchargeronline.com/hp_calculator.asp" target="_blank">http://www.superchargeronline.com/hp_calculator.asp</a>
"""Your Entries:
Existing horsepower: 300 rear wheel HP
Planned level of boost: 20
Planned fuel octane rating: 92
Intercooler / Aftercooler 2-Core
Estimated Results:
HP Loss due to timing adjustment: 50
Est. flywheel HP with supercharger: 770.2025
Est. rear wheel HP with supercharger: 616.162
Total HP Gain: 316.162 rear wheel HP
Percentage Gain: 105.387333333333 % """"
Oh if it were only as simple as a click of a mouse! <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />
How do you intercool the roots system? is there a cooler that sits directly below it...before the intake plenum of the motor? Any links to pictures?
What kind of Hp/TQ numbers do you think would come from a 6L, 32v motor,forged, with 8:1 CR and a cooler? <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
had to throw that one in the calculator.... <a href="http://www.superchargeronline.com/hp_calculator.asp" target="_blank">http://www.superchargeronline.com/hp_calculator.asp</a>
"""Your Entries:
Existing horsepower: 300 rear wheel HP
Planned level of boost: 20
Planned fuel octane rating: 92
Intercooler / Aftercooler 2-Core
Estimated Results:
HP Loss due to timing adjustment: 50
Est. flywheel HP with supercharger: 770.2025
Est. rear wheel HP with supercharger: 616.162
Total HP Gain: 316.162 rear wheel HP
Percentage Gain: 105.387333333333 % """"
Oh if it were only as simple as a click of a mouse! <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />
05-09-2003, 02:41 AM
#39
Drifting
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Tony,
The way the factory Lightning, SVT Mustang, GT40, and the Magnacharger Corvette kit intercool is by blowing through an intercooler into a plenum each below the blower, down in the "V". I am about 99% sure I could add this to my project.
I"ll try to post the schematic.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Andy k
The way the factory Lightning, SVT Mustang, GT40, and the Magnacharger Corvette kit intercool is by blowing through an intercooler into a plenum each below the blower, down in the "V". I am about 99% sure I could add this to my project.
I"ll try to post the schematic.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Andy k
05-10-2003, 02:15 AM
#40
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There is some room down there i know but the radiant heat from that part of the motor cant be good for the workings of the intercooler. Also, i cant imagine it being that big.
Ive been searching for picture of a set up but no luck.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Ive been searching for picture of a set up but no luck.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
05-10-2003, 02:47 AM
#41
Drifting
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Tony,
I have the schematic drawing from the Ford dealer but I have not been able to upload photos lately to rennlist. I'll try to e-mail it to you. It maybe not the best place for an inter cooler but it has to be better than not having one.
From the bottom of the plane even with the ports (bottom of manifold) to the bottom of the V is 5 3/4". The knock sensors need an inch of clearance. So effectively there is 4 3/4" there. The bottom of the SC could be 1 3/4" above the bottom of the manifold this gives 6 1/2" of clearance for the IC. the Lightning SC is 5 1/2" in depth Which makes it about a perfect fit.
Andy K
I have the schematic drawing from the Ford dealer but I have not been able to upload photos lately to rennlist. I'll try to e-mail it to you. It maybe not the best place for an inter cooler but it has to be better than not having one.
From the bottom of the plane even with the ports (bottom of manifold) to the bottom of the V is 5 3/4". The knock sensors need an inch of clearance. So effectively there is 4 3/4" there. The bottom of the SC could be 1 3/4" above the bottom of the manifold this gives 6 1/2" of clearance for the IC. the Lightning SC is 5 1/2" in depth Which makes it about a perfect fit.
Andy K
05-10-2003, 02:50 AM
#42
Drifting
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I drove the car around the block again tonight with the 5.25 pulley. I gave it about 3/4 throttle up hill in first and saw about 4-5 psi at around 4k rpms.
Andy K
Andy K
05-10-2003, 03:05 AM
#43
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There ya go. A picture is worth a thousand words...thanks Andy. I was baffled (no pun) on how they would put one underneath. Just a thought, but perhaps think about coating the underside of the whole plenum/cooler with some sort of insulation/ heat barrier?
Also, a thought, if you have a video camera it is really handy to capture your boost at work while you drive. Set it up so you can view the boost gauge and pod at the same time.
<img src="http://members.rennlist.com/v1uhoh/intakedrawing.JPG" alt=" - " />
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Also, a thought, if you have a video camera it is really handy to capture your boost at work while you drive. Set it up so you can view the boost gauge and pod at the same time.
<img src="http://members.rennlist.com/v1uhoh/intakedrawing.JPG" alt=" - " />
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
05-10-2003, 03:20 AM
#44
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Good idea w/ the video camera Tony. It is hard to watch everything at once.
Just so no one is mislead by this schematic I will state that I don't think any year Lightning has the rear entry SC.
The SC just blows through that cooler and pressurizes the large plenum below it. There are really no sort of intake runners.
Andy K
Just so no one is mislead by this schematic I will state that I don't think any year Lightning has the rear entry SC.
The SC just blows through that cooler and pressurizes the large plenum below it. There are really no sort of intake runners.
Andy K
05-10-2003, 03:57 AM
#45
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Lagavulin, I thoroughly enjoyed your responses. Top shelf!!!
I can see the day where there is a supercharged shark in my garage. Guess I'll have to sell blood again. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />
I can see the day where there is a supercharged shark in my garage. Guess I'll have to sell blood again. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />