22,100k early 86 head gasket prob
03-22-2008, 12:16 AM
#1
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22,100k early 86 head gasket prob
Short story, told by me, which will be long so bear with me.
This car came to Roger by way of a Porsche place local, with rodent damage. The car had not run in 5 plus years so the OO (original owner) had an insurance job done on it for the top end chewable stuff. Anything a rat could chew, and did, was replaced including a $638.00 fuel cooler (foam was gone, so why not replace it.....right???????????? wtf....anyway. TTL cost at the dealership was just shy of $10k. You guys would scream at this bill.
The Porsche place would not try and start the car since the last TB/WP change was in 1994, with the miles sitting at 21,***. They only replaced what insurance would pay for, and that did not include a TB/WP. So we (Roger) got the car towed to him for the replacement. We dig in do the typical job, get it done and fire the car up..... Runs like a brand new car, smooth. Here is where it gets sticky.
Get the job done, she runs great and as she is running on the lift I duck down to see how the bottom end is doing, and I see oil running down the oil filter, not a drip, spewing down. So we shut it down and take further investigation.
Not filter loose, not oil cooler lines... just above it it is seen as shooting out the head gasket just above the header. Head gasket.
Which brings me to the 1st problem, we have a head gasket failure, it's pure oil. No mix in the fluids internal, just oil shooting out that spot. We let the car sit for a day and refire, hoping that the gasket just got dry and will reseal itself. No luck there. Upon firing the 2nd day, not only do we have the oil leak at #5 cylinder, we have a water leak at #4 cylinder (opposite side rear). The water leak is not coming from the HCV or associated hoses, appears to come from #4, and draining in to the bell housing to the cats..........nasty smell.
Rog will chime in with details, I just wanted to post to get some idea on where we can go with this. It looks like it might be a total engine pull since the '85-'86 use head studs instead of bolts.
Advice is needed here.
Thanks in advance.
This car came to Roger by way of a Porsche place local, with rodent damage. The car had not run in 5 plus years so the OO (original owner) had an insurance job done on it for the top end chewable stuff. Anything a rat could chew, and did, was replaced including a $638.00 fuel cooler (foam was gone, so why not replace it.....right???????????? wtf....anyway. TTL cost at the dealership was just shy of $10k. You guys would scream at this bill.
The Porsche place would not try and start the car since the last TB/WP change was in 1994, with the miles sitting at 21,***. They only replaced what insurance would pay for, and that did not include a TB/WP. So we (Roger) got the car towed to him for the replacement. We dig in do the typical job, get it done and fire the car up..... Runs like a brand new car, smooth. Here is where it gets sticky.
Get the job done, she runs great and as she is running on the lift I duck down to see how the bottom end is doing, and I see oil running down the oil filter, not a drip, spewing down. So we shut it down and take further investigation.
Not filter loose, not oil cooler lines... just above it it is seen as shooting out the head gasket just above the header. Head gasket.
Which brings me to the 1st problem, we have a head gasket failure, it's pure oil. No mix in the fluids internal, just oil shooting out that spot. We let the car sit for a day and refire, hoping that the gasket just got dry and will reseal itself. No luck there. Upon firing the 2nd day, not only do we have the oil leak at #5 cylinder, we have a water leak at #4 cylinder (opposite side rear). The water leak is not coming from the HCV or associated hoses, appears to come from #4, and draining in to the bell housing to the cats..........nasty smell.
Rog will chime in with details, I just wanted to post to get some idea on where we can go with this. It looks like it might be a total engine pull since the '85-'86 use head studs instead of bolts.
Advice is needed here.
Thanks in advance.
03-22-2008, 12:53 AM
#4
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Thread Starter
That was my 1st thought while I laid under the car and saw it. Rog and I are wondering wtf would cause a car with this low of miles to have this issue. Is it due to not being used over the years, and is this an example of what can happen with a low mile, less used car?
Me asking now, not Rog, can we just retouque the heads? I'm thinking the engine needs to come out, pull both heads and just replace the gaskets/seals and go from there. We are talking about a 22 year old motor with only 22k on it. I'm pretty stunned that there would be 2 HG leaks on a motor this young, giving the age and lack of use.
Me asking now, not Rog, can we just retouque the heads? I'm thinking the engine needs to come out, pull both heads and just replace the gaskets/seals and go from there. We are talking about a 22 year old motor with only 22k on it. I'm pretty stunned that there would be 2 HG leaks on a motor this young, giving the age and lack of use.
03-22-2008, 01:00 AM
#5
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I'll second this.......but,
I would have the heads lightly milled for straight-ness to insure a good sealing surface when you go back together with it. (no telling what shape the mating surfaces are in/or if the engine has been over heated causing the heads to warp and h/g start leaking----head gaskets don't just start leaking because the engine hasn't been run in 5 years----ask yourself why the car hadn't been run? TB failure? overheat causing head gasket failure?).
--Russ
03-22-2008, 01:02 AM
#6
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That was my 1st thought while I laid under the car and saw it. Rog and I are wondering wtf would cause a car with this low of miles to have this issue. Is it due to not being used over the years, and is this an example of what can happen with a low mile, less used car?
Me asking now, not Rog, can we just retouque the heads? I'm thinking the engine needs to come out, pull both heads and just replace the gaskets/seals and go from there. We are talking about a 22 year old motor with only 22k on it. I'm pretty stunned that there would be 2 HG leaks on a motor this young, giving the age and lack of use.
Me asking now, not Rog, can we just retouque the heads? I'm thinking the engine needs to come out, pull both heads and just replace the gaskets/seals and go from there. We are talking about a 22 year old motor with only 22k on it. I'm pretty stunned that there would be 2 HG leaks on a motor this young, giving the age and lack of use.
Answer to 1st question: No.
Answer to 2nd question: No.
--Russ
03-22-2008, 01:08 AM
#7
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Thread Starter
I'll second this.......but,
I would have the heads lightly milled for straight-ness to insure a good sealing surface when you go back together with it. (no telling what shape the mating surfaces are in/or if the engine has been over heated causing the heads to warp and h/g start leaking----head gaskets don't just start leaking because the engine hasn't been run in 5 years----ask yourself why the car hadn't been run? TB failure? overheat causing head gasket failure?).
--Russ
I would have the heads lightly milled for straight-ness to insure a good sealing surface when you go back together with it. (no telling what shape the mating surfaces are in/or if the engine has been over heated causing the heads to warp and h/g start leaking----head gaskets don't just start leaking because the engine hasn't been run in 5 years----ask yourself why the car hadn't been run? TB failure? overheat causing head gasket failure?).
--Russ
70 year old guy in todays timeline.
Had the car since new.
Didn't drive it much, parked it due to other things in his life. No over heat, no TBF.......the TB/WP from 1994 looked brand new, was embarrassed to pull it as bad. Was suprised how good it all looked. But after 14 years, better safe than sorry. Besides, Porsche "dealership" wouldn't crank it.
To us and the OO the issues we are looking at are a total suprise. Hence the reason for this post.
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03-22-2008, 01:21 AM
#9
Nordschleife Master
if the car wasnt run in 5 years then i would think the PH in the coolant got out of hand and started to corrode the heads. Not sure why your getting straight oil but if the car hasnt been run in 5 years the coolant could be what? 6, 7 8 years old or older?
This can be a pretty serious problem and not being run in 5 years is tell tale to me. But I dont know a whole lot about this, but If it leaking like that look for something obvious, seal thats popped out somehow, or John Curry told me his oil leak was because of a missing rubber grommet on one of the cam cover bolts, something simple like that could be the cause. But a low mile car not being run in 5 years doesn't sound like fun.
Try and find something simple but worse case scenario you should refresh the engine. Now this could be a great weekend tech session! I would come up for that!
Yeah, just pull the thing and have a set of heads ready to go on exchange and we can pull it apart and do preassembly on Saturday, then assembly on Sunday. We can have one guy handling parts washing in hour shifts (everyone does it) and then a couple guys with other various things. I am sure allot of guys would be thrilled to take part in an engine rebuild, especially if they've never seen the internals before hand. Or you could just do a reseal really. Rings are probably fin, take it down to the short block and replace every seal and gasket, your doing the timing belt anyway, refresh the intake stuff (That crap has got to be cracking anyway) install a fresh set of heads and you would have a nice, happy engine!
Better pull out the WSM though, dont count on me for torque spec's for every nut and bolt. Lets see, rod nuts 66 ft/lbs, flywheel 30 then 66 ft/lbs, cam caps.......Crap, i forget 32 maybe........yeah better get the WSM!
This can be a pretty serious problem and not being run in 5 years is tell tale to me. But I dont know a whole lot about this, but If it leaking like that look for something obvious, seal thats popped out somehow, or John Curry told me his oil leak was because of a missing rubber grommet on one of the cam cover bolts, something simple like that could be the cause. But a low mile car not being run in 5 years doesn't sound like fun.
Try and find something simple but worse case scenario you should refresh the engine. Now this could be a great weekend tech session! I would come up for that!
Yeah, just pull the thing and have a set of heads ready to go on exchange and we can pull it apart and do preassembly on Saturday, then assembly on Sunday. We can have one guy handling parts washing in hour shifts (everyone does it) and then a couple guys with other various things. I am sure allot of guys would be thrilled to take part in an engine rebuild, especially if they've never seen the internals before hand. Or you could just do a reseal really. Rings are probably fin, take it down to the short block and replace every seal and gasket, your doing the timing belt anyway, refresh the intake stuff (That crap has got to be cracking anyway) install a fresh set of heads and you would have a nice, happy engine!
Better pull out the WSM though, dont count on me for torque spec's for every nut and bolt. Lets see, rod nuts 66 ft/lbs, flywheel 30 then 66 ft/lbs, cam caps.......Crap, i forget 32 maybe........yeah better get the WSM!
03-22-2008, 01:35 AM
#10
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Thread Starter
The pull of this engine will depend on the OO, this job is not cheap, even for those of us who do this to our own cars. I just hate to see one this young getting a guts tear down. The car is pristine, as you would expect with those miles. It has been a dream to work on thus far. Thing only had dirt on the A/C compressor bracket. I was hoping to avoid an engine pull (wishfull thinking, I know better) and I'm sure the OO was hoping also.
03-22-2008, 01:36 AM
#11
Nordschleife Master
is this a new baby for Roger or a clients/customers car?
If its Rogers i say rebuild it, if its the customers then i say we rebuild it, charge him $10K and we can work on it for a weekend and all go on a little 1-2 week vacation on the earnings!
If its Rogers i say rebuild it, if its the customers then i say we rebuild it, charge him $10K and we can work on it for a weekend and all go on a little 1-2 week vacation on the earnings!
03-22-2008, 01:43 AM
#12
Nordschleife Master
The head gaskets have erroded with time, and you are going to have to putt the engine, if you retorque the gaskets they MAY seal up abit, but then you will have an overheating issue.
03-22-2008, 01:45 AM
#13
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Russ,
70 year old guy in todays timeline.
Had the car since new.
Didn't drive it much, parked it due to other things in his life. No over heat, no TBF.......the TB/WP from 1994 looked brand new, was embarrassed to pull it as bad. Was suprised how good it all looked. But after 14 years, better safe than sorry. Besides, Porsche "dealership" wouldn't crank it.
To us and the OO the issues we are looking at are a total suprise. Hence the reason for this post.
70 year old guy in todays timeline.
Had the car since new.
Didn't drive it much, parked it due to other things in his life. No over heat, no TBF.......the TB/WP from 1994 looked brand new, was embarrassed to pull it as bad. Was suprised how good it all looked. But after 14 years, better safe than sorry. Besides, Porsche "dealership" wouldn't crank it.
To us and the OO the issues we are looking at are a total suprise. Hence the reason for this post.
Yes, I agree that if he had not abused it, it should have remained tight. What have the temps been at it's location for the past 5 years......Cold? Freezing? Mmm.......if the coolant lost it's "charge", you could be looking at the h/g as the path of least resistance with the water trying to expand due to freezing temps? This might not explain the oil leak, but would certainly explain the coolant leak. An overheat situation would, however, explain both......another thought comes to mind about accuracy of the 928 gauges----or lack thereof. He may have got it hot and never knew it.
Don't be embarrassed about the TB, as most of us would applaud you for using the "cheap insurance principle".
Aluminum corrosion may be the culprit......but if that is the case, count on either a different set of heads or at least milling the ones that are in the car....
(Wonder what the tops of the liners look like......corroded, too?)
--Russ
03-22-2008, 01:47 AM
#14
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Thread Starter
This is something we thought about. Realizing that the HG is dry, toast, wishful thinking on our part. And if you do one, do both or you will be back in there again.
03-22-2008, 01:48 AM
#15
Shameful Thread Killer
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Yep, I agree with these guys assessment. Sitting too long, and the heads have become corroded. In Ferraris, the heads stick pretty hard to the block. You may find dissimilar metal damage around the studs. Or, you may find the gaskets have simply given up.
Engine pull, remove top end, have heads lightly surfaced, check for leaks and reinstall. Let me know when you want to pull the engine, I'll come over, we'll have it out in a few hours. I should be there Sat afternoon with my new painted car, putting the bumpers on. If you want to do it after that, I'm fine with that. Wish you had a bigger air compressor, sigh...
Engine pull, remove top end, have heads lightly surfaced, check for leaks and reinstall. Let me know when you want to pull the engine, I'll come over, we'll have it out in a few hours. I should be there Sat afternoon with my new painted car, putting the bumpers on. If you want to do it after that, I'm fine with that. Wish you had a bigger air compressor, sigh...