R134a conversion. Anyone done it?
05-03-2003, 11:47 AM
#17
I spent $275 for r-134 and to repair any leaks in the A/C system at a shop who works on Porsches. It was done right, and it was a smart move. Those of you who spent $500 or more on the conversion got seriously riped off. Trust me on this one.
05-04-2003, 11:37 AM
#20
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Duracool 12a:
methylethylmethane (Butane) 15-40%
2-methylpropane (Isobutane) 30-60%
dimethylmethane (Propane) 40-70%
Not bad if you aren't worried about its flamability. There was info on the net about home-brewing this drop-in replacement, but I don't remember where I saw it.
methylethylmethane (Butane) 15-40%
2-methylpropane (Isobutane) 30-60%
dimethylmethane (Propane) 40-70%
Not bad if you aren't worried about its flamability. There was info on the net about home-brewing this drop-in replacement, but I don't remember where I saw it.
05-04-2003, 11:56 AM
#21
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From the Duracool link... "Like all hydrocarbons, DURACOOL® is flammable, and must be handled accordingly. Practically all lubricants, additives and oils used in the engine of a car are flammable. Gasoline is flammable. Hair spray, deodorant and whipped cream aerosol propellants are flammable".
Nice logic...duh. R134a and R12 are neither straight HCs nor flammable. For my fellow Shark owners, PLEASE, don't risk life, limb, and car by purposefully filling an A/C system with flammable gas!
...unless it strikes you as a good idea to take 2 pounds or so of lighter fluid, compress it to 200 PSIG + on the high side, and put it in a location with lots of spark and heat.
Part of my EPA 609 training included a video of a news report about three AZ technicians who died recently leak-probing an HC-filled system with a heated element leak detector. The "1.5 second flash" claimed on the Duracool site took out the shop and the technicians.
Nice logic...duh. R134a and R12 are neither straight HCs nor flammable. For my fellow Shark owners, PLEASE, don't risk life, limb, and car by purposefully filling an A/C system with flammable gas!
...unless it strikes you as a good idea to take 2 pounds or so of lighter fluid, compress it to 200 PSIG + on the high side, and put it in a location with lots of spark and heat.
Part of my EPA 609 training included a video of a news report about three AZ technicians who died recently leak-probing an HC-filled system with a heated element leak detector. The "1.5 second flash" claimed on the Duracool site took out the shop and the technicians.
05-04-2003, 12:26 PM
#22
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There are two disadvantages of the refrigerant blends.
The molecules of the individual constitutents have different sizes, and so leak from the system at different rates. After some time, the refigerant no longer has the same properties. The only way to get back to the designed properties is to dump the entire system and start over.
Professional shops are required by law to have dedicated recovery systems for every refrigerant that they handle. Virtually every automotive shop can and will work on systems with R-12 and R-134a, but very, very few shops can handle anything else. The chances of finding a professional shop that will touch your car with any of the non-standard refigerants are pretty low. If you don't tell the shop that you have a non-standard refigerant, and they contaminate their recovery system, YOU are liable for some expensive disposal and cleaning costs.
R-134a works very well in a 928. Costco had 134 for $2 a can a couple of weeks ago. Why use anything else?
The molecules of the individual constitutents have different sizes, and so leak from the system at different rates. After some time, the refigerant no longer has the same properties. The only way to get back to the designed properties is to dump the entire system and start over.
Professional shops are required by law to have dedicated recovery systems for every refrigerant that they handle. Virtually every automotive shop can and will work on systems with R-12 and R-134a, but very, very few shops can handle anything else. The chances of finding a professional shop that will touch your car with any of the non-standard refigerants are pretty low. If you don't tell the shop that you have a non-standard refigerant, and they contaminate their recovery system, YOU are liable for some expensive disposal and cleaning costs.
R-134a works very well in a 928. Costco had 134 for $2 a can a couple of weeks ago. Why use anything else?
05-04-2003, 12:44 PM
#23
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So, what are you guys trying to say? <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
Thanks for the info., I think I have enough problems without adding fuel to the fire. <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
Thanks for the info., I think I have enough problems without adding fuel to the fire. <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
05-04-2003, 12:48 PM
#24
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There is NO good reason to use any non R12 or R134a refergerant in a 928 or any car.
Cost: R134a is about the same cost as the alternatives.
Cooling: R134a cools better than the alternatives.
NO AC shop will touch your car when they find out that it is not R12 or R134a.
It is illegal unless you put on the special fittings that are not compatible with R12 or R134a fittings.
Above are the major reasons to not use alternatives. There are 100s of other reasons.
There are no good reasons to use it.
There are almost as many reasons to not use R134a.
Except for 1993 or later GTSs, all 928s came with R12. Stay with R12. DO NOT convert to R134a.
NEVER NEVER NEVER put sealer in an AC system.
Sealer seems to work for a small leak BUT, it cures with air and moisture as it leaks, sealing the hole. It will also cure for many other reasons. If you have a big leak or moisture in the system, it seals the inside of the system. That means replacement of the complete system.
Also, NO shop will work on your system since it clogs up their very expensive tools. Yes, shops have identifiers for both refergerants and sealers.
Do yourself and the next owner a favor, STAY WITH R12.
If you MUST convert to R134a, read the can label.
It may say in small print: contains sealer. DON'T buy it.
Cost: R134a is about the same cost as the alternatives.
Cooling: R134a cools better than the alternatives.
NO AC shop will touch your car when they find out that it is not R12 or R134a.
It is illegal unless you put on the special fittings that are not compatible with R12 or R134a fittings.
Above are the major reasons to not use alternatives. There are 100s of other reasons.
There are no good reasons to use it.
There are almost as many reasons to not use R134a.
Except for 1993 or later GTSs, all 928s came with R12. Stay with R12. DO NOT convert to R134a.
NEVER NEVER NEVER put sealer in an AC system.
Sealer seems to work for a small leak BUT, it cures with air and moisture as it leaks, sealing the hole. It will also cure for many other reasons. If you have a big leak or moisture in the system, it seals the inside of the system. That means replacement of the complete system.
Also, NO shop will work on your system since it clogs up their very expensive tools. Yes, shops have identifiers for both refergerants and sealers.
Do yourself and the next owner a favor, STAY WITH R12.
If you MUST convert to R134a, read the can label.
It may say in small print: contains sealer. DON'T buy it.
05-04-2003, 03:45 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
I like how the manufacturers of some of the alternative substances play down the flammability issue.
1 Big difference between flammable refrigerant and gasoline, oil, etc. It is that the refrigerant is routed through the evaporator INSIDE your cockpit. A leak in that part of the system puts flammable material in the driver's area with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Most of the A/C horror stories regarding big $$$ to make the system right seem to trace back to poor troubleshooting and hence, unneeded repairs in a shotgun approach which did not help.
Griffith's sells a complete R134 solution which, when properly installed should give good results.
As I've stated, I redid my R12 system and could not be more pleased. Didn't cost a fortune, works like a charm.
Beware of who does your A/C work. Many service stations sell Freeze12 at true R12 (+ $$$) prices. Not only are they killing you on the price but they are setting you up for future disaster by mixing.
If your car doesn't blow cold, I would study the options which in my opinion are 2.
1. Renew the R12 system with new barrier hoses, drier, O-rings and possibly expansion valve. If the compressor is bad, have it rebuilt or get a quality rebuild. Nothing magical about these compressors, get the number off the compressor and shop. They are available for a reasonable price. Pull a vacuum and check for leaks. Once any leaks are found and fixed, system can be vac'd down and properly charged.
2. Buy the Griffith's kit for R134 conversion. It has a new compressor, barrier hoses, drier and other items. Follow proper procedures regarding flushing and replacement of proper oil, proper charging, etc. Once any leaks are found and fixed, system can be vac'd down and properly charged.
In either case, barrier hoses are part of the equation. Cleaning the condenser of debris in the fins, making sure radiator fans are working properly and cleaning of debris from evaporator as best you can without removal (from the duct where the blower motor is). Good airflow across the condenser and evaporator is key to success. Charging by weight and into the vacuum is the proper way. A new drier should be installed on systems which have been opened to the outside air. I could go on and on, but the point is to learn and make an informed decision about how to bring your A/C system back to life.
Links of intrest:
<a href="http://www.griffiths.com/achelp/achelp1.htm" target="_blank">Griffith's A/C help page</a>
<a href="http://www.aircondition.com/wwwboard/" target="_blank">Aircondition.com webboard</a>
Greg
1 Big difference between flammable refrigerant and gasoline, oil, etc. It is that the refrigerant is routed through the evaporator INSIDE your cockpit. A leak in that part of the system puts flammable material in the driver's area with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Most of the A/C horror stories regarding big $$$ to make the system right seem to trace back to poor troubleshooting and hence, unneeded repairs in a shotgun approach which did not help.
Griffith's sells a complete R134 solution which, when properly installed should give good results.
As I've stated, I redid my R12 system and could not be more pleased. Didn't cost a fortune, works like a charm.
Beware of who does your A/C work. Many service stations sell Freeze12 at true R12 (+ $$$) prices. Not only are they killing you on the price but they are setting you up for future disaster by mixing.
If your car doesn't blow cold, I would study the options which in my opinion are 2.
1. Renew the R12 system with new barrier hoses, drier, O-rings and possibly expansion valve. If the compressor is bad, have it rebuilt or get a quality rebuild. Nothing magical about these compressors, get the number off the compressor and shop. They are available for a reasonable price. Pull a vacuum and check for leaks. Once any leaks are found and fixed, system can be vac'd down and properly charged.
2. Buy the Griffith's kit for R134 conversion. It has a new compressor, barrier hoses, drier and other items. Follow proper procedures regarding flushing and replacement of proper oil, proper charging, etc. Once any leaks are found and fixed, system can be vac'd down and properly charged.
In either case, barrier hoses are part of the equation. Cleaning the condenser of debris in the fins, making sure radiator fans are working properly and cleaning of debris from evaporator as best you can without removal (from the duct where the blower motor is). Good airflow across the condenser and evaporator is key to success. Charging by weight and into the vacuum is the proper way. A new drier should be installed on systems which have been opened to the outside air. I could go on and on, but the point is to learn and make an informed decision about how to bring your A/C system back to life.
Links of intrest:
<a href="http://www.griffiths.com/achelp/achelp1.htm" target="_blank">Griffith's A/C help page</a>
<a href="http://www.aircondition.com/wwwboard/" target="_blank">Aircondition.com webboard</a>
Greg
