Piston Coatings/Block dealiings
04-25-2002, 05:16 AM
#31
Burning Brakes
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Marc,
Correct, that cannot be a Nikasil sleeve, most properly that's an aluminium or Alusil sleeve coated with Nekasil.
I do not know exactly how Nekasil is applied, but it must be a electrochemical process like chrome etc.
As I understood, and saw, this sleeves can be mounted more easy (can be done of normal block renovating companies) to the block than Nekasil coating, plus many, or at least some of, the used blocks has scratch in some cylinders, by this process they also overcome this problem.
As I understood from the Tailacker people this Nekasil coated liners and belonging pistons can be delivered from Mahle, but only for 100 Ø boring
If you wish, I can ask Tailacker to send me/you some documentation of what I saw.
I am looking for a solution for my damaged block -this are almost brand new only about 15,000 miles - I need sleeves for cylinder no 4 and 8 - Maybe you have the answer for this?
Regards from Erik in Denmark
PS: Marc, I forgot one thing: What is a 390 sleeve?
Correct, that cannot be a Nikasil sleeve, most properly that's an aluminium or Alusil sleeve coated with Nekasil.
I do not know exactly how Nekasil is applied, but it must be a electrochemical process like chrome etc.
As I understood, and saw, this sleeves can be mounted more easy (can be done of normal block renovating companies) to the block than Nekasil coating, plus many, or at least some of, the used blocks has scratch in some cylinders, by this process they also overcome this problem.
As I understood from the Tailacker people this Nekasil coated liners and belonging pistons can be delivered from Mahle, but only for 100 Ø boring
If you wish, I can ask Tailacker to send me/you some documentation of what I saw.
I am looking for a solution for my damaged block -this are almost brand new only about 15,000 miles - I need sleeves for cylinder no 4 and 8 - Maybe you have the answer for this?
Regards from Erik in Denmark
PS: Marc, I forgot one thing: What is a 390 sleeve?
04-29-2002, 10:00 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
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Erik,
This is great information, you may be right. This could be the solution for 928 cylinders running with uncoated custom pistons. Mahle makes liners for 911 engines also.
Nicka/sil is an electroplating process. The process of electroplating cylinders in an engine block would seem more complex then separate external sleeves.
Do you have the phone number for Tailacker or do you know their website?
Thanks,
Steve C
The Great White
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
This is great information, you may be right. This could be the solution for 928 cylinders running with uncoated custom pistons. Mahle makes liners for 911 engines also.
Nicka/sil is an electroplating process. The process of electroplating cylinders in an engine block would seem more complex then separate external sleeves.
Do you have the phone number for Tailacker or do you know their website?
Thanks,
Steve C
The Great White
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
04-30-2002, 04:23 AM
#33
Burning Brakes
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Steve,
I sent a fax to Thailacker Sunday, to get an verification of what I saw, plus what can be done for the 4,7 L (97 mm Ø). Now waiting for there answer – When I have this, I will put in-to this Rennlist Discussion Forum
Here you have the address:
Theilacker GmbH
Motoren Instandsetzung
Stockachstrasse 7,
Stuttgart, Germany
Tel +49 711 268 690
Fax +49 711 268 6929
But I doubt they are speaking English, so better to find you ‘school German’ before you call!
Regards from Erik in Denmark
I sent a fax to Thailacker Sunday, to get an verification of what I saw, plus what can be done for the 4,7 L (97 mm Ø). Now waiting for there answer – When I have this, I will put in-to this Rennlist Discussion Forum
Here you have the address:
Theilacker GmbH
Motoren Instandsetzung
Stockachstrasse 7,
Stuttgart, Germany
Tel +49 711 268 690
Fax +49 711 268 6929
But I doubt they are speaking English, so better to find you ‘school German’ before you call!
Regards from Erik in Denmark
05-06-2002, 03:45 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
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Marc, Steve, Adam and other interested,
I contacted Theilacker, Stuttgart (Mr. Bulling) and got the following answer:
· The 100 mm Ø (5.0 L) sleeves from Mahle is not Nikasil, but normal Alusil
· Cannot be delivered for 97 mm Ø (4.7 L) cylinders
I.e. I had misunderstood, and Marc’s statement is correct – Sorry!
I asked what to do with the 97 mm Ø (4.7 L) block with deep scratches. He answered, he mean that can be bored to 100 mm Ø, but he was not sure and promised to check and come back.
I think there must be a market for 97 mm Ø sleeves/pistons with mounting instruction – Marc, maybe something for Devek?
Regards from Erik in Denmark
I contacted Theilacker, Stuttgart (Mr. Bulling) and got the following answer:
· The 100 mm Ø (5.0 L) sleeves from Mahle is not Nikasil, but normal Alusil
· Cannot be delivered for 97 mm Ø (4.7 L) cylinders
I.e. I had misunderstood, and Marc’s statement is correct – Sorry!
I asked what to do with the 97 mm Ø (4.7 L) block with deep scratches. He answered, he mean that can be bored to 100 mm Ø, but he was not sure and promised to check and come back.
I think there must be a market for 97 mm Ø sleeves/pistons with mounting instruction – Marc, maybe something for Devek?
Regards from Erik in Denmark
05-06-2002, 10:25 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
99% of all 97mm blocks can safely be bored to 100mm without issues. Send me your block and I will determine safe bore diameter.
Or better yet, locate and buy a used 100 mm 85/86 short block and modify the pistons.
Very common upgrade that we perfrom.
Contack me privately at mmthomas@ix.netcom.com for more discussion on your situation.
Marc
Or better yet, locate and buy a used 100 mm 85/86 short block and modify the pistons.
Very common upgrade that we perfrom.
Contack me privately at mmthomas@ix.netcom.com for more discussion on your situation.
Marc
05-07-2002, 05:48 AM
#36
Race Director
"Perhaps you missed it (if you blinked you could have) but there was a 16v 944 Turbo. It was called the 944 Turbo S. Available to the general public, and sold in the US market.
Engine numbers were: 47 J XXXXX"
Look again... These were the same 2-valve engines used in the earlier 944 Turbos. Only difference was the TurboS had a slightly larger K26/8 turbo with revised DME computers and chip-mapping. They also got bigger front brakes, stiffer suspension and tougher trannies. The head has sodium-filled exhaust-valves with slightly thicker stems, but they were still 2-valvers.
Engine numbers were: 47 J XXXXX"
Look again... These were the same 2-valve engines used in the earlier 944 Turbos. Only difference was the TurboS had a slightly larger K26/8 turbo with revised DME computers and chip-mapping. They also got bigger front brakes, stiffer suspension and tougher trannies. The head has sodium-filled exhaust-valves with slightly thicker stems, but they were still 2-valvers.
05-07-2002, 11:34 AM
#37
Danno is correct. Even the 968 turbo S (europe only) had the 2v 944ts motor in it although it normally came with 4v's.
The 951 piston works great in 928 motor as FAST has ordered a few sets for customers in the past making great power (over 500rwhp/tq now I believe from Marcus' motor)
the 2mm longer rod is necessary due to the difference in wrist pin location differences between the 951 and 928 ('85-86 in this case specifically) motors. A *good* machinest can properly fly-cut the necessary valve reliefs (very small on these motors).
Chris.
The 951 piston works great in 928 motor as FAST has ordered a few sets for customers in the past making great power (over 500rwhp/tq now I believe from Marcus' motor)
the 2mm longer rod is necessary due to the difference in wrist pin location differences between the 951 and 928 ('85-86 in this case specifically) motors. A *good* machinest can properly fly-cut the necessary valve reliefs (very small on these motors).
Chris.
03-27-2003, 10:34 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
We are still unsure and do not want to take the risk. We also have a steel sleeved block that is unique and attached at the deck, but there, we are a bit concerned abou the technology over the long term.
All of our engines run for 100,000 miles...and those are very hard miles at the 500+ crank hp level.
I am building 2 600 crank hp engine right now and expect them to have at least 100K mile druability. I know the plating is a plausable solution, and used for winston cup cars..yeah, chebbys, but....a pure race engine and a dual purpose engine are two different animals. And the later are far more difficult to engineer correctly.
Additionally, there is no eqaul in heat removal than the 390 bore material....and in our engine that is a factor that cannot be dismissed.
I am very hopeful that Andersons engine will produce tremendous hp since he has the options of specing the piston and rods...which we do not since we use stock components. Big power gains there if done correctly.
And John should be the first one done....and his engine should be the one worth following! Hi heat, big bmeps and 500+ hp...yeehah!
Eric, bore your block to 100 mm and and run modified S3 pistons and have onehell of an engine!
Regards,
Marc
All of our engines run for 100,000 miles...and those are very hard miles at the 500+ crank hp level.
I am building 2 600 crank hp engine right now and expect them to have at least 100K mile druability. I know the plating is a plausable solution, and used for winston cup cars..yeah, chebbys, but....a pure race engine and a dual purpose engine are two different animals. And the later are far more difficult to engineer correctly.
Additionally, there is no eqaul in heat removal than the 390 bore material....and in our engine that is a factor that cannot be dismissed.
I am very hopeful that Andersons engine will produce tremendous hp since he has the options of specing the piston and rods...which we do not since we use stock components. Big power gains there if done correctly.
And John should be the first one done....and his engine should be the one worth following! Hi heat, big bmeps and 500+ hp...yeehah!
Eric, bore your block to 100 mm and and run modified S3 pistons and have onehell of an engine!
Regards,
Marc
03-28-2003, 04:56 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
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I am also taking the Nikasil (Millennium) route with a custom forged piston. This will end up a turbocharged 4.5 liter with 8.5:1 compression. Once my motor is done, J&E will know exactly what the piston is. The rest of you wanting to blow your 4.5 liter cars can then go and buy them. I saw no value in increasing to 4.7 liters with my IHI RHB-6 compressors. With the turbo, you don't have to increase the displacement, simply turn the boost controller ****! It really is that simple.
The 944 turbo piston route was not a good option....used parts, big money and a lousy 7.5:1 compression ratio after purchasing custom length connecting rods. The car would be an off-boost dog. Custom pistons allow me to set the CR wherever I want it. In the turbo car, it is the pistons you have to worry about. I don't need to turn way past 6,000/min to make good power, so forged custom rods would be just like throwing money away. Interial loads kill rods, not power loads.
Time will tell how well things go on this conversion. I easily expect to have the car running in the next month. Just playing the parts waiting game right now...
My car will run somewhere between 10 and 14 psig at the manifold. I expect to see close to 400 HP (maybe more?) on the chassis dyno.
The 944 turbo piston route was not a good option....used parts, big money and a lousy 7.5:1 compression ratio after purchasing custom length connecting rods. The car would be an off-boost dog. Custom pistons allow me to set the CR wherever I want it. In the turbo car, it is the pistons you have to worry about. I don't need to turn way past 6,000/min to make good power, so forged custom rods would be just like throwing money away. Interial loads kill rods, not power loads.
Time will tell how well things go on this conversion. I easily expect to have the car running in the next month. Just playing the parts waiting game right now...
My car will run somewhere between 10 and 14 psig at the manifold. I expect to see close to 400 HP (maybe more?) on the chassis dyno.
03-28-2003, 10:28 PM
#42
Three Wheelin'
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Marc,
Take the plunge. Build those 2 blocks, install them in a cheap 928…. parts delivery, grocery, lunch run car. Tag it R&D, you might be pleasantly surprise.
As to the 390 block, any thoughts on reinforcing the cylinders with a deck plate of filler like sterling did.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Take the plunge. Build those 2 blocks, install them in a cheap 928…. parts delivery, grocery, lunch run car. Tag it R&D, you might be pleasantly surprise.
As to the 390 block, any thoughts on reinforcing the cylinders with a deck plate of filler like sterling did.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
03-28-2003, 11:36 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Steve,
Nah....I am more interested in building a reliable 500 rwhp engine for dual purpose than an experiment that "might" work. Or a 1000 hp + twin turbo...I still have a couple of T40e's available..each will handle about 500+ hp at 1 bar boost. The rest of the short block and heads has been sold.
Right now, I have 3 400+ rwhp street and 2 500 + rwhp dual purpose engines to build, and then one of those gets to go to the 550 rwhp level after 100 hrs of run time...
Decking the blocks with cut plate and weld like sterling
g is a good way to go for stiffening the block for enourmous power levels and boost....
marc
Nah....I am more interested in building a reliable 500 rwhp engine for dual purpose than an experiment that "might" work. Or a 1000 hp + twin turbo...I still have a couple of T40e's available..each will handle about 500+ hp at 1 bar boost. The rest of the short block and heads has been sold.
Right now, I have 3 400+ rwhp street and 2 500 + rwhp dual purpose engines to build, and then one of those gets to go to the 550 rwhp level after 100 hrs of run time...
Decking the blocks with cut plate and weld like sterling
g is a good way to go for stiffening the block for enourmous power levels and boost....
marc
03-29-2003, 06:42 PM
#44
Drifting
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I think you are on the right track.
If you can find out what works on these engines, and what is the most reliable, and cost efficient, when these cars start needing engine rebuilds, you will by then have the best, most reliable setup. Once it gets out of the "R&D" mode, then things may get cheaper to order parts in bulk, etc...
But I also think that your "flagship" ought to showcase the ultimate that you can do. I think a 1000+ hp twin turbo 928 will garner you a lot of publicity. It may or may not be the best street car, or best race car, but having something over-the-top like that, is what magazines and tv shows like to see. Something with 250MPH speeds, and even impressive 1/4 mile times...
There will be plenty of customers out there showing off what a Devek street car, and a Devek race car, can do, when properly set up. I think you need to have something that is the "king of the hill". Before someone beats you to it!
If you can find out what works on these engines, and what is the most reliable, and cost efficient, when these cars start needing engine rebuilds, you will by then have the best, most reliable setup. Once it gets out of the "R&D" mode, then things may get cheaper to order parts in bulk, etc...
But I also think that your "flagship" ought to showcase the ultimate that you can do. I think a 1000+ hp twin turbo 928 will garner you a lot of publicity. It may or may not be the best street car, or best race car, but having something over-the-top like that, is what magazines and tv shows like to see. Something with 250MPH speeds, and even impressive 1/4 mile times...
There will be plenty of customers out there showing off what a Devek street car, and a Devek race car, can do, when properly set up. I think you need to have something that is the "king of the hill". Before someone beats you to it!
