Electric Water Pump
02-13-2003, 03:09 AM
#1
Burning Brakes
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Electric Water Pump
Thought I'd start this as a new thread for those interested. I took a look at <a href="http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/08/electricwaterpump/index.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/08/electricwaterpump/index.shtml</a> and found that it can be used in a daily driver situation and they tested it on a late 60s mustang, big engine. Installation seems pretty straight-forward, and the price wasn't bad either. Someone said that a mustang package or something like that was less than 300 dollars. The unit is about the size of your hand and weighs in a touch under 2 pounds. I have about 20k left before I do a timing belt on my 87, and if this would be a good way to go, I'd be willing to do it. They say the pump is good for 2000 hours, but I dont know what that could translate into, mileage-wise. What do you all think?
02-13-2003, 03:32 AM
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I just finished my timing belt, and I'd say that this is an all-round bad idea. The waterpump pulley is a significaant part of the T-belt track. Removing this pulley would alter the required belt-length, and that would be a bad thing. Also, it would alter (decrease) the engagement of the belt to the cam gears, another bad thing. Also, look at the current-draw of that electric pump...... most are quite high, so you would really only be exchanging one engine load for another. File this one in the nightmare bin!!
02-13-2003, 03:47 AM
#3
Several after-market systems are available.
I've seen them in Hot Rod, Mustang's, Mustangs and Ford magazines, probably others as well, in the advertisment sections.
There are different grades -reliability- and a price range. The kits have all relay fusing and wiring included.
Trade offs:
Less parasitic drag... more current draw.
less chance of a leaking -driven pump- when re-tightening the belts. Some warning of failure.
Versus an electric pump that will, no doubt, lock up upon failure. When it goes it's GONE and you stop upon failure, or else!
You will probably need an adaptor mount for the pump to work on the sHARKs. Keep in mind there aren't that many of us. A belt length change or an adaptor mount for a 'free pulley' ( good time to dump the smog pump, maybe use the Euro pulley bracket ).
It seems like a good idea when considering a fair HP gain especially if you dump the smog pump at the same time.
Then again, unless I had a spare electic water pump in the 'boot' I'd hate to be a couple hundred miles from home when the pump hit that theoretical 2000 hour mark.
The math: At a 60mph average divided into 20,000 miles equals, roughly, 333.33 hours. So, 60,000 miles should be, roughly, 999.99 hours.
That does look reliable...
Your call.
John S. and Pattycakes.
I've seen them in Hot Rod, Mustang's, Mustangs and Ford magazines, probably others as well, in the advertisment sections.
There are different grades -reliability- and a price range. The kits have all relay fusing and wiring included.
Trade offs:
Less parasitic drag... more current draw.
less chance of a leaking -driven pump- when re-tightening the belts. Some warning of failure.
Versus an electric pump that will, no doubt, lock up upon failure. When it goes it's GONE and you stop upon failure, or else!
You will probably need an adaptor mount for the pump to work on the sHARKs. Keep in mind there aren't that many of us. A belt length change or an adaptor mount for a 'free pulley' ( good time to dump the smog pump, maybe use the Euro pulley bracket ).
It seems like a good idea when considering a fair HP gain especially if you dump the smog pump at the same time.
Then again, unless I had a spare electic water pump in the 'boot' I'd hate to be a couple hundred miles from home when the pump hit that theoretical 2000 hour mark.
The math: At a 60mph average divided into 20,000 miles equals, roughly, 333.33 hours. So, 60,000 miles should be, roughly, 999.99 hours.
That does look reliable...
Your call.
John S. and Pattycakes.
02-13-2003, 03:52 AM
#4
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The retail price is US$250 for the pump, $150 for the optional variable flow controller. (The article had a combination price for readers for $298, but I don't know if you can get this anymore)
"...The Davies, Craig electric pump operates at its maximum efficiency design rate of 80 litres/ minute when the full 12 volts is applied to its motor. But in most situations even that rate is more then necessary so Davies, Craig has developed a solid state intelligent controller. It senses the temperature in the engine and then varies the voltage between 4 and 12 volts to the pump motor thus varying the pump speed so that the engine temperature is precisely controlled to a set temperature. Current consumption for 90% of motoring time will be less than two amps and up to six amps when the pump is full on.
...The modification involves removing the mechanical pump, pulling off the impeller from the pump shaft, and re installing the mechanical pump housing and its belt. Now the pump is an idler pulley doing no work and causing no drain on the power to the wheels.
...A section of four inches of the lower radiator hose is cut out and the electric water pump inserted. The engine thermostat is then removed, (as the pump acts as a thermostat), and the electric pump wired up.
...A five-litre V8 engine could produce an extra 8% to 10 % power at the drive wheels.
...But the biggest boon will be to engine life because the electric pump can be programmed to run on after a hot engine shut down for less than a minute, which is more than enough to wash out built up heat from the engine block."
http://www.daviescraig.com.au/]Link: Davies, Craig
"...The Davies, Craig electric pump operates at its maximum efficiency design rate of 80 litres/ minute when the full 12 volts is applied to its motor. But in most situations even that rate is more then necessary so Davies, Craig has developed a solid state intelligent controller. It senses the temperature in the engine and then varies the voltage between 4 and 12 volts to the pump motor thus varying the pump speed so that the engine temperature is precisely controlled to a set temperature. Current consumption for 90% of motoring time will be less than two amps and up to six amps when the pump is full on.
...The modification involves removing the mechanical pump, pulling off the impeller from the pump shaft, and re installing the mechanical pump housing and its belt. Now the pump is an idler pulley doing no work and causing no drain on the power to the wheels.
...A section of four inches of the lower radiator hose is cut out and the electric water pump inserted. The engine thermostat is then removed, (as the pump acts as a thermostat), and the electric pump wired up.
...A five-litre V8 engine could produce an extra 8% to 10 % power at the drive wheels.
...But the biggest boon will be to engine life because the electric pump can be programmed to run on after a hot engine shut down for less than a minute, which is more than enough to wash out built up heat from the engine block."
http://www.daviescraig.com.au/]Link: Davies, Craig
Last edited by PorKen; 09-09-2004 at 05:07 PM. Reason: new forum update
02-13-2003, 03:55 AM
#5
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Brian,
that does seem like a logical approach, and now I don't know where we'd get an appropriate length and type of timing belt to replace if one did this project.
The current draw is 7.5amps, really nothing. It is quite small so it can run inline on the radiator hose, and some bracket could be easy to make since its pretty light. I'd still be willing to do it if I can get the right timing belt... Any other thoughts? And I'm also interested in the electric power steering or 993 pump ideas. The less accessories on the engine the better, but I will keep my AC thank you
. Does the smog pump really take that much power from the engine? I have gutted cats and its still connected, but I pass emissions, will it stop me from passing if I take it off now?
that does seem like a logical approach, and now I don't know where we'd get an appropriate length and type of timing belt to replace if one did this project.
The current draw is 7.5amps, really nothing. It is quite small so it can run inline on the radiator hose, and some bracket could be easy to make since its pretty light. I'd still be willing to do it if I can get the right timing belt... Any other thoughts? And I'm also interested in the electric power steering or 993 pump ideas. The less accessories on the engine the better, but I will keep my AC thank you
. Does the smog pump really take that much power from the engine? I have gutted cats and its still connected, but I pass emissions, will it stop me from passing if I take it off now?
02-13-2003, 04:16 AM
#6
I'm not sure how much tension there is on the smog pump in relation to the water pump, I think it depends on pulley size, not just the fact that other equipment on same belt have a given tension -just guessing here-.
I look at all HP gains as percentages. You know a cumulative effect. Say you could get 10 hp from an exhaust mod., 5 hp from dumping the smog gear, and say 15 hp from the electric pump swap. That's 30 hp or a 10% hp gain on a 300hp engine. And a more significant hp gain on say a U.S. 4.5L or 4.7L. In other news: how the heck would you get the impeller off? You'd lose the shaft seal one way, and I don't think you could get the puller claws under the impeller if you could it would probably break anyway.
I look at all HP gains as percentages. You know a cumulative effect. Say you could get 10 hp from an exhaust mod., 5 hp from dumping the smog gear, and say 15 hp from the electric pump swap. That's 30 hp or a 10% hp gain on a 300hp engine. And a more significant hp gain on say a U.S. 4.5L or 4.7L. In other news: how the heck would you get the impeller off? You'd lose the shaft seal one way, and I don't think you could get the puller claws under the impeller if you could it would probably break anyway.
02-13-2003, 12:46 PM
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Since these water pumps CAN be remanufactured Im sure the impeller can be removed during a rebuild.
As for a diferent length Tbelt as someone mentioned..WHY? Your not changing a thing excpet removing the impeller....the pulley on the OEM pump becomes an idler the way i see it.
Another point i saw above. It was said the electric pump eliminates the need for a thermostat? 928 MOTORS NEED A THERMOSTAT...DONT RUN WITH OUT ONE <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />
I like the idea of the timer on the pump to circulate the water for a while after you shut down.
I guess, if its appears such a good idea, and almost too easy to try, why hasnt someone done it yet..mainly the guys that race these cars ? Mark A, Don H, Marc T, Mark K etc etc...
Slainte <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
As for a diferent length Tbelt as someone mentioned..WHY? Your not changing a thing excpet removing the impeller....the pulley on the OEM pump becomes an idler the way i see it.
Another point i saw above. It was said the electric pump eliminates the need for a thermostat? 928 MOTORS NEED A THERMOSTAT...DONT RUN WITH OUT ONE <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />
I like the idea of the timer on the pump to circulate the water for a while after you shut down.
I guess, if its appears such a good idea, and almost too easy to try, why hasnt someone done it yet..mainly the guys that race these cars ? Mark A, Don H, Marc T, Mark K etc etc...
Slainte <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
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02-13-2003, 12:49 PM
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Just thought of another thing..
I cant recall what the inards look like around the water manifold where the pump sits, but by design the cooling system as a whole may need the impeller of the pump to direct the water..or channel it in a certain direction.???
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
I cant recall what the inards look like around the water manifold where the pump sits, but by design the cooling system as a whole may need the impeller of the pump to direct the water..or channel it in a certain direction.???
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
02-13-2003, 02:51 PM
#9
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Tony - The thermostat is unnecessary with the electronic controller; the pump runs at different speeds, limiting the volume of coolant flowing through the engine.
This is the same thing the thermostat does, but now you don't have the flow restriction of the thermostat when you need a large volume of coolant.
Note: I don't have any relation to this company, I just happened to research this idea for another car a few years ago. YMMV
This is the same thing the thermostat does, but now you don't have the flow restriction of the thermostat when you need a large volume of coolant.
Note: I don't have any relation to this company, I just happened to research this idea for another car a few years ago. YMMV
02-13-2003, 03:03 PM
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Uhmm... isn't everyone forgetting that putting this pump in the lower radiator hose won't push anything through the heater core?
Plus, if the 928 is like the 944, when the thermostat is closed, coolant is still circulated within the engine and through the heater circuit.
The after-run feature is kinda neat, like the 951's waterpump for turbocharger.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Plus, if the 928 is like the 944, when the thermostat is closed, coolant is still circulated within the engine and through the heater circuit.
The after-run feature is kinda neat, like the 951's waterpump for turbocharger.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
02-13-2003, 03:50 PM
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I did a new web search for this product... 
Uh oh, this fellow had problems...
Link: LS1 Problems with pump
And again...
Link: Autospeed review
Uh oh, this fellow had problems...
Link: LS1 Problems with pump
And again...
Link: Autospeed review
Last edited by PorKen; 09-09-2004 at 05:09 PM. Reason: new forum update
02-13-2003, 04:45 PM
#12
Burning Brakes
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Hmm, well that sucks... I read on that first link that there are others available. Seems like I'll be staying away from the Davies Craig EWP. Dang!
02-13-2003, 05:10 PM
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I didn't consider turning the current pump into an idler, and that's a perfectly appropriate way to avoid the 2 belt issues that I mentioned. If this were a "drag-race car" concept, looking for a bit more power, it might be an idea, but is sure looks like a PITA for the difference it's going to make to a daily driver......
02-13-2003, 05:47 PM
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Interesting editorial on magazine testing considerations...
Link: AutoSpeed Editorial
"Our testing complete, we believed that there were very major concerns with the product. The problems seemed so great that at this stage we contacted the company for a response, and - as a courtesy - showed them draft versions of our stories. We were saddened when instead of rebutting the detailed findings that had been made - ie having a logical debate with us about the product and our testing of it - they responded by making scarcely veiled threats of legal action to be taken should the articles be published."
Link: AutoSpeed Editorial
"Our testing complete, we believed that there were very major concerns with the product. The problems seemed so great that at this stage we contacted the company for a response, and - as a courtesy - showed them draft versions of our stories. We were saddened when instead of rebutting the detailed findings that had been made - ie having a logical debate with us about the product and our testing of it - they responded by making scarcely veiled threats of legal action to be taken should the articles be published."
Last edited by PorKen; 09-09-2004 at 05:10 PM. Reason: new forum update
02-13-2003, 05:57 PM
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If an electric pump can circulate sufficient water and only draw 7.5 amps of power maximum that has to mean it takes little horsepower to circulate the water ! Anyone care to determine how much horsepower , torque a 12 volt dc motor typically makes at a draw of 7.5 amps ?