928 VS Viper
04-28-2003, 12:48 AM
#16
Three Wheelin'
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">WILL IT TAKE A 06? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Oh yes; the Viper is king.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">SCCA AX today - Viper there...his best time...3 seconds SLOWER than my 928 A/T!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Nice driving.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">SCCA AX today - Viper there...his best time...3 seconds SLOWER than my 928 A/T!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Nice driving.
04-28-2003, 01:20 AM
#17
USMarine
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The Viper is classed very closely with the 996 and 993 Turbo in terms of Performance and ability. September of last year Car and Driver did a test of both cars and the 996 Turbo edged out the Viper in all but a very few areas.
<a href="http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2002/september/supercars/0209_sc_challenge_opener_stockers.xml" target="_blank">Click here to see C&D test results of both cars</a> or read the content below.
"I ain't telling you nothin'," Hurley Haywood said.
It's rare that an amateur like me is given the chance to share a track with such talents as three-time overall Le Mans winner Haywood and the current SCCA T1 national champion John Heinricy, but that's what happened during the production-car portion of our Supercar Challenge.
1st Place: Porsche 911 Turbo
1/4-mile: 12.9 sec @ 115 mph
Road course: 57.7 sec
150-to-0-mph braking: 684.3 feet
Total course time: 109.3 sec
Best Runs
2nd Place: Dodge Viper GTS ACR
1/4-mile: 12.6 sec @ 117 mph
Road course: 58.2 sec
150-to-0-mph braking: 775.9 feet
Total course time: 109.5 sec
Best Runs
3rd Place: Chevrolet Corvette Z06
1/4-mile: 12.8 sec @ 114 mph
Road course: 57.7 sec
150-to-0-mph braking: 702.6 feet
Total course time: 110.4 sec
Best Runs
We set the same rules for the production cars as we did for the tuners. The cars would run on street tires and pump gas, each car would get five runs, and the factories had the option of hiring a driver or putting me in the seat. Any driver hitting one of the cones that lined the course would get a five-second penalty added to his overall time. In addition, the production cars ran the same course as the tuned cars, and unlike at last year's event, where the production cars were only required to hit 120 mph, this year the mandated speed was upped to 150.
Porsche sent Haywood, the racing veteran with so much time behind the wheel of Porsches the guy could probably drive one blindfolded, and a $123,626, 415-hp 911 Turbo. The $51,433, 405-hp Corvette Z06 was driven by GM's in-house pro Heinricy, a man so skilled that during last year's SCCA Runoffs he lapped the entire field during a rain-soaked 25-lap national championship race.
Dodge sent a $91,603, 460-hp Viper GTS ACR but no driver. Now, although some might have been thrilled to pilot the Viper, I wasn't. I had made 10 runs on the course the previous day in a variety of cars — a huge advantage — but running with these two guys would be a definite leap into the big leagues.
To make it worse, the Viper is, on paper, easily in the hunt with the Porsche and Corvette. It weighs 3490 pounds, 54 pounds less than the 911 Turbo and 333 pounds more than the Corvette. The Viper has a power-to-weight ratio of 7.6 pounds per horsepower, the Porsche, 8.5, and the Corvette, 7.8. None of these cars had an advantage that would make for a runaway winner. The Viper has the best power-to-weight ratio, but the Porsche has four-wheel drive and the Vette has the lightest weight.
Any one of these machines could win, and I didn't want to be the lackey posting times four seconds slower — or worse — than the others in a car that clearly could win.
The Cseremeister offered a feeble, "Do your best," and the runs began. By run No. 3, things weren't looking good. Heinricy had already set the best road-course time of 56.9 seconds and a run that totaled 111.2 seconds, and Haywood had the best overall run of 109.7 seconds. During my third run, I had gone about as fast as I thought I was capable of, and I was third by a hair with a time of 111.6 seconds.
To make matters worse, in the portion that required the least skill — braking from 150 mph to 0 — the Viper was getting creamed. Over the first three runs, the Vette hauled itself down in an average of 668 feet, and the Porsche averaged 664 feet. The Viper averaged 806 feet.
On the other hand, the Viper's quickest sprint from 100 to 150 mph in those first three runs was 12.5 seconds, almost three seconds faster than the Vette's 15.3 seconds and 1.7 seconds better than the Porsche's 13.6-second time. After run No. 3, the outcome was still far from certain. The Viper was the quickest in the high-speed sprint, the Corvette was the fastest over the road course, and the Porsche wasn't stellar in any one area but strong in all.
Then I got lucky and uncorked one. I did run No. 4 in 109.5 seconds. Haywood's best time after run four was only 0.3 second better (109.3), and Heinricy's road-course advantage wasn't enough to overcome the Vette's relatively sluggish 100-to-150-mph time, and his best time was 110.4 seconds.
I suspected there were at least two spots on the road course where I could surely gain a measly quarter of a second. I felt I might have been braking too early for Turn One. So I sauntered over to Haywood and asked at what point he was braking. I've been at numerous press events where Haywood was the on-hand instructor, and he's always been helpful. He looked at me with a bemused smirk and said, "I ain't tellin' you nothin'." And he wasn't kidding.
The story ends there, however. On run No. 5, I choked. I overdrove everywhere, slid where I should've carved, and finally hit a cone. Haywood began his fifth run, and I figured he'd go even quicker. His fifth run was going well, perhaps a 10th or two quicker, according to the data, but the anti-lock braking system failed, so when he dropped anchor at 150 mph, all four wheels locked up, which effectively trashed his run. But he was still in the lead with Heinricy preparing to blast off.
Heinricy lined up for his fifth and final go, a run that I figured would surely sink me in last place. His time was 110.5 seconds — still in third place — but a civilian car wandered onto a portion of the course, and Heinricy had properly slowed. So he got another go-round. His sixth run looked to be his strongest, but he hit a cone and wound up third to my second. For a car that costs a little bit more than half the Viper's tab and a lot less than half the Porsche's price, it was impressively close.
For me, second place was more than I dared hope for, but I still have the feeling that a better driver probably would have won with the Viper. Perhaps next time I'll have a chance to redeem myself.
In the end, we were astonished and amazed by the vastly increased competitiveness of this year's event over last year's. Fifteen of the 17 entries showed up for the street evaluation on Monday morning, and every one made it through the day without the slightest hitch.
On Tuesday, only two cars, the Lingenfelter Sonoma and the Peter Farrell IS300, suffered mechanical maladies serious enough to take them out of the event. The Mallett Vette lost a run to a slipping water-pump belt, and the RENNtech SL55K missed the call twice when its builder busted an electrical terminal while attempting to fine-tune his car's engine-management computer. Both machines recovered, however, and completed their final runs solidly. It was an impressive display of reliability for a group of tuned-to-the-max road rockets.
The most exciting portion of the shootout was the tightness of the racing. Not only were there barely two seconds separating the first four finishers, but it wasn't until the last round of runs that the Lingenfelter Corvette cemented its lead over the AutoThority Porsche.
We couldn't have asked for a more competitive challenge. If you think you can run with the big dogs — are any Ferrari, Lamborghini, or Ruf Porsche owners listening? — it's not too early to let us know you're interested in the next running of this event.
<a href="http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2002/september/supercars/0209_sc_challenge_opener_stockers.xml" target="_blank">Click here to see C&D test results of both cars</a> or read the content below.
"I ain't telling you nothin'," Hurley Haywood said.
It's rare that an amateur like me is given the chance to share a track with such talents as three-time overall Le Mans winner Haywood and the current SCCA T1 national champion John Heinricy, but that's what happened during the production-car portion of our Supercar Challenge.
1st Place: Porsche 911 Turbo
1/4-mile: 12.9 sec @ 115 mph
Road course: 57.7 sec
150-to-0-mph braking: 684.3 feet
Total course time: 109.3 sec
Best Runs
2nd Place: Dodge Viper GTS ACR
1/4-mile: 12.6 sec @ 117 mph
Road course: 58.2 sec
150-to-0-mph braking: 775.9 feet
Total course time: 109.5 sec
Best Runs
3rd Place: Chevrolet Corvette Z06
1/4-mile: 12.8 sec @ 114 mph
Road course: 57.7 sec
150-to-0-mph braking: 702.6 feet
Total course time: 110.4 sec
Best Runs
We set the same rules for the production cars as we did for the tuners. The cars would run on street tires and pump gas, each car would get five runs, and the factories had the option of hiring a driver or putting me in the seat. Any driver hitting one of the cones that lined the course would get a five-second penalty added to his overall time. In addition, the production cars ran the same course as the tuned cars, and unlike at last year's event, where the production cars were only required to hit 120 mph, this year the mandated speed was upped to 150.
Porsche sent Haywood, the racing veteran with so much time behind the wheel of Porsches the guy could probably drive one blindfolded, and a $123,626, 415-hp 911 Turbo. The $51,433, 405-hp Corvette Z06 was driven by GM's in-house pro Heinricy, a man so skilled that during last year's SCCA Runoffs he lapped the entire field during a rain-soaked 25-lap national championship race.
Dodge sent a $91,603, 460-hp Viper GTS ACR but no driver. Now, although some might have been thrilled to pilot the Viper, I wasn't. I had made 10 runs on the course the previous day in a variety of cars — a huge advantage — but running with these two guys would be a definite leap into the big leagues.
To make it worse, the Viper is, on paper, easily in the hunt with the Porsche and Corvette. It weighs 3490 pounds, 54 pounds less than the 911 Turbo and 333 pounds more than the Corvette. The Viper has a power-to-weight ratio of 7.6 pounds per horsepower, the Porsche, 8.5, and the Corvette, 7.8. None of these cars had an advantage that would make for a runaway winner. The Viper has the best power-to-weight ratio, but the Porsche has four-wheel drive and the Vette has the lightest weight.
Any one of these machines could win, and I didn't want to be the lackey posting times four seconds slower — or worse — than the others in a car that clearly could win.
The Cseremeister offered a feeble, "Do your best," and the runs began. By run No. 3, things weren't looking good. Heinricy had already set the best road-course time of 56.9 seconds and a run that totaled 111.2 seconds, and Haywood had the best overall run of 109.7 seconds. During my third run, I had gone about as fast as I thought I was capable of, and I was third by a hair with a time of 111.6 seconds.
To make matters worse, in the portion that required the least skill — braking from 150 mph to 0 — the Viper was getting creamed. Over the first three runs, the Vette hauled itself down in an average of 668 feet, and the Porsche averaged 664 feet. The Viper averaged 806 feet.
On the other hand, the Viper's quickest sprint from 100 to 150 mph in those first three runs was 12.5 seconds, almost three seconds faster than the Vette's 15.3 seconds and 1.7 seconds better than the Porsche's 13.6-second time. After run No. 3, the outcome was still far from certain. The Viper was the quickest in the high-speed sprint, the Corvette was the fastest over the road course, and the Porsche wasn't stellar in any one area but strong in all.
Then I got lucky and uncorked one. I did run No. 4 in 109.5 seconds. Haywood's best time after run four was only 0.3 second better (109.3), and Heinricy's road-course advantage wasn't enough to overcome the Vette's relatively sluggish 100-to-150-mph time, and his best time was 110.4 seconds.
I suspected there were at least two spots on the road course where I could surely gain a measly quarter of a second. I felt I might have been braking too early for Turn One. So I sauntered over to Haywood and asked at what point he was braking. I've been at numerous press events where Haywood was the on-hand instructor, and he's always been helpful. He looked at me with a bemused smirk and said, "I ain't tellin' you nothin'." And he wasn't kidding.
The story ends there, however. On run No. 5, I choked. I overdrove everywhere, slid where I should've carved, and finally hit a cone. Haywood began his fifth run, and I figured he'd go even quicker. His fifth run was going well, perhaps a 10th or two quicker, according to the data, but the anti-lock braking system failed, so when he dropped anchor at 150 mph, all four wheels locked up, which effectively trashed his run. But he was still in the lead with Heinricy preparing to blast off.
Heinricy lined up for his fifth and final go, a run that I figured would surely sink me in last place. His time was 110.5 seconds — still in third place — but a civilian car wandered onto a portion of the course, and Heinricy had properly slowed. So he got another go-round. His sixth run looked to be his strongest, but he hit a cone and wound up third to my second. For a car that costs a little bit more than half the Viper's tab and a lot less than half the Porsche's price, it was impressively close.
For me, second place was more than I dared hope for, but I still have the feeling that a better driver probably would have won with the Viper. Perhaps next time I'll have a chance to redeem myself.
In the end, we were astonished and amazed by the vastly increased competitiveness of this year's event over last year's. Fifteen of the 17 entries showed up for the street evaluation on Monday morning, and every one made it through the day without the slightest hitch.
On Tuesday, only two cars, the Lingenfelter Sonoma and the Peter Farrell IS300, suffered mechanical maladies serious enough to take them out of the event. The Mallett Vette lost a run to a slipping water-pump belt, and the RENNtech SL55K missed the call twice when its builder busted an electrical terminal while attempting to fine-tune his car's engine-management computer. Both machines recovered, however, and completed their final runs solidly. It was an impressive display of reliability for a group of tuned-to-the-max road rockets.
The most exciting portion of the shootout was the tightness of the racing. Not only were there barely two seconds separating the first four finishers, but it wasn't until the last round of runs that the Lingenfelter Corvette cemented its lead over the AutoThority Porsche.
We couldn't have asked for a more competitive challenge. If you think you can run with the big dogs — are any Ferrari, Lamborghini, or Ruf Porsche owners listening? — it's not too early to let us know you're interested in the next running of this event.
04-28-2003, 01:39 AM
#18
USMarine
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This is the <a href="http://money.cnn.com/2003/03/11/pf/autos/review_porsche_911_Turbo/" target="_blank">CNN Money Magazine comparision of the Viper and the 996 Turbo written on March 13, 2003</a>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Like the wild new 500-horsepower Dodge Viper, this very special 911 is all about extreme performance. Yet the cars couldn't be more different. The Viper is a WWF wrestler -- a hairy, volatile muscleman with a profane roar and body-slamming ride.
The 911 Turbo is a ballet dancer in comparison: Indisputably an athlete, but with litheness, precision and grace to spare.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Like the wild new 500-horsepower Dodge Viper, this very special 911 is all about extreme performance. Yet the cars couldn't be more different. The Viper is a WWF wrestler -- a hairy, volatile muscleman with a profane roar and body-slamming ride.
The 911 Turbo is a ballet dancer in comparison: Indisputably an athlete, but with litheness, precision and grace to spare.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
04-28-2003, 08:09 AM
#19
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Mark:
<strong>SCCA AX today - Viper there...his best time...3 seconds SLOWER than my 928 A/T!
Straight line - yep - the Viper is dang fast...but for the same $$, I can get a used NHRA funny car and whip his butt!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Not to "diss" anyones driving skills, but applying all the Viper's available torque and HP does require some finesse.
I don't know about auto X, but I had a chance to ride in a Viper on a race track. At speed and in the hands of someone who could use all the performance, it worked really well. The handling was very predictable at both high and low speeds and the pure "grunt" coming out of corners was awesome. I also don't know how they fare as actual racers. All I can say is... the one I rode in sure impressed me! They are far from a straight-line only type performer.
The heritage of the Viper is quite obvious.
Think 427 Cobra and you are not far off.
Crude? Yes!
Loud? Yes!
Hot inside? Yes!
Uncomfortable? Yes!
Conspicuous? Yes!
Fast? Yes!
Please understand, I am not suggesting I would prefer one over a 928, for many of the reasons listed above, but I am sure willing to concede their strengths.
Cheers <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
JF
'88 S4 A/T Black/Cashmere (her driver)
'83S Euro 5sp Pewter/Black (my project)
<strong>SCCA AX today - Viper there...his best time...3 seconds SLOWER than my 928 A/T!
Straight line - yep - the Viper is dang fast...but for the same $$, I can get a used NHRA funny car and whip his butt!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Not to "diss" anyones driving skills, but applying all the Viper's available torque and HP does require some finesse.
I don't know about auto X, but I had a chance to ride in a Viper on a race track. At speed and in the hands of someone who could use all the performance, it worked really well. The handling was very predictable at both high and low speeds and the pure "grunt" coming out of corners was awesome. I also don't know how they fare as actual racers. All I can say is... the one I rode in sure impressed me! They are far from a straight-line only type performer.
The heritage of the Viper is quite obvious.
Think 427 Cobra and you are not far off.
Crude? Yes!
Loud? Yes!
Hot inside? Yes!
Uncomfortable? Yes!
Conspicuous? Yes!
Fast? Yes!
Please understand, I am not suggesting I would prefer one over a 928, for many of the reasons listed above, but I am sure willing to concede their strengths.
Cheers <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
JF
'88 S4 A/T Black/Cashmere (her driver)
'83S Euro 5sp Pewter/Black (my project)
04-29-2003, 03:22 PM
#21
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The Viper in Gran Turismo 3 exhibits those same real-world characteristics - blazing straightaway speed, but get on the brakes early into the corner 'cause it handles like a brick.
04-29-2003, 05:39 PM
#22
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I looked at a wrecked Viper just down the road. They wanted $20,000 for this thing and it had been smacked pretty hard up front. Looked like it needed at least $10,000 in frame and body work to make it right.
My conclusion: Vipers are a slap together POS with a big engine. I don't think I have ever seen such a high end car that was so cheaply put together.
My conclusion: Vipers are a slap together POS with a big engine. I don't think I have ever seen such a high end car that was so cheaply put together.
