Best shine, car wash or wax?
04-26-2003, 03:09 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
My post was removed because I made reference to an online company that sells car care and cleaning products, but they are not (yet) Rennlist sponsors. I wasn't aware that only Rennlist sponsors could have their names included in messages, and all others could not. Seems a bit extreme to me, but if that's how you want it, then I won't do it again.
Meantime, as I said before, a clay bar has abrasives. Every time it's used on the finish, paint is removed. It may not be much, but in time you may get down to the last layer of paint, and then what? :^(
Concourists don't use abrasives to get a show-car finish. Others here have said what they do without using abrasives. I would save the clay bar for overspray (which is what it was originally designed to do).
A good wash (with a mild pH soap), then a good dry (with a 100% cotton towel or a specially made drying towel), a good cleansing with some hand-glaze, and finally a good wax without petroleum distilates. That works for the concourists, and it should work for you. YMMV.
Meantime, as I said before, a clay bar has abrasives. Every time it's used on the finish, paint is removed. It may not be much, but in time you may get down to the last layer of paint, and then what? :^(
Concourists don't use abrasives to get a show-car finish. Others here have said what they do without using abrasives. I would save the clay bar for overspray (which is what it was originally designed to do).
A good wash (with a mild pH soap), then a good dry (with a 100% cotton towel or a specially made drying towel), a good cleansing with some hand-glaze, and finally a good wax without petroleum distilates. That works for the concourists, and it should work for you. YMMV.
04-26-2003, 06:51 PM
#33
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Blue Coral Premium Carnauba- may it rest in peace.
-I've used this since 1984, and have had sore arms but intense results ever since. Recently, I switched to Zymol.
Does Zymol need to be refrigerated?
My brother says so. And he also is capable of drinking 6 Guiness beers without any discernable effect~
Anyway, I only use detergent on my car if I plan to wax, which I do about 4 times per year. Normal washes are done with two wash rags- one for wheels and lower body sections, and one for the other parts of the car. I just use a hose in the driveway, with no attachment, and make sure the wash mits are well lubricated with water. And I never wash in sunlight- my house has an eastern exposure, so my driveway is in shadow from about 1700/ 5 PM these days, so it gets washed before dinner.
The wash mits get washed with each load of laundry I do- they never see the car twice between washes.
I always dry my cars with genuine French chamois- you cannot eliminate all water spots with a towel.
I've found that a little music and a Corona realy makes the wash/wax process more enjoyable....
Normy!
'85 S2 5 Speed
-I've used this since 1984, and have had sore arms but intense results ever since. Recently, I switched to Zymol.
Does Zymol need to be refrigerated?
My brother says so. And he also is capable of drinking 6 Guiness beers without any discernable effect~
Anyway, I only use detergent on my car if I plan to wax, which I do about 4 times per year. Normal washes are done with two wash rags- one for wheels and lower body sections, and one for the other parts of the car. I just use a hose in the driveway, with no attachment, and make sure the wash mits are well lubricated with water. And I never wash in sunlight- my house has an eastern exposure, so my driveway is in shadow from about 1700/ 5 PM these days, so it gets washed before dinner.
The wash mits get washed with each load of laundry I do- they never see the car twice between washes.
I always dry my cars with genuine French chamois- you cannot eliminate all water spots with a towel.
I've found that a little music and a Corona realy makes the wash/wax process more enjoyable....
Normy!
'85 S2 5 Speed
04-27-2003, 05:35 PM
#34
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OK. Everyone has a favorite wax, polish, or clay. "Experts" will tell you if or when to use DAWN. When I had my '85 EURO RinSpeed (I'm currently in the market for my next 928), I spent a few months experimenting with the best products discussed on the "detailers' forums". The bottom line question is this: Nearly every quality product will deliver the "Holy Sh*t" shine, but which one still has it a month later? This is what I found to be the best, longest lasting combo:
1. Wash the car.
For weekly washings, I use some Blue Coral Wash and Wax from WalMart. It has carnauba and costs about $3 for a gallon. This refreshes the "base shine" and keeps the water beading. The secret is to use too much -- instead of the recommended 1-2 oz per bucket, use 5+ oz. So what ...
I use the same solution on the wheels/tires AFTER finishing the washing of the car. This process exhausts the suds.
After washing, rinse and then dry the car. I use a Cali blade and finish up with a synthetic chamois. You may like other materials. That's up to you. Micro fibers don't dry a car well. I gave mine away.
You can wash the car outside, just don't do it in the hot sun. A hot car surface is "soft" and easily scratched. You may not notice it until the end when the "swirls" tick you off.
The rest of what follows is a guideline for the quarterly/semi-annual "base shine" process. (NOTE: If you are doing the full Monty, use a minimal amount of Blue Coral in the initial wash process.)
2. Clay.
Since you're going to clay the car, don't bother drying it off.
I use Meguiar's Clay, but any clay will do. Use a hand sprayer to wet down a small area and go up and down or back and forth. My sprayer is the Meguiar's lube that comes with the clay. Use whatever the manufacturer recommends. Supposedly, water with/without soap will work as well -- I don't know.
Use no pressure. Allow the clay to glide over the surface. After each section, fold the clay to expose a new area. Its sticky surface pulls "embedded" dirt off the "clean" (freshly washed) surface -- you can see the dirt on the clay. Do the whole car (except the wheels/tires). I always treat the windows as part of the car's surface.
Since you're doing the quarterly/semi-annual "base shine", you should wash the car AGAIN, but this time use DAWN. Don't worry about the car finish. A couple of DAWN washes a year won't have any effect on your epoxy paint (especially compared to the acid rain present in all American cities). DAWN will remove previous wax coats and make the surface ready for the follow-up processes. Dry the car. Pull it inside the garage and let the surface cool off.
3. Polish.
If you haven't polished the car in the last year, or two, then polish it. Otherwise you can skip this step. If this is the first time you are doing the "base shine", buy a Porter Cable orbital (about $100). It's the "best in breed" and you will keep it for the rest of your life. I only use the Porter Cable for the polish, but many use it for waxing, buffing, etc.
Polish the car according to the manufacturer's instructions. I use 3M "Perfect It" for dark cars, but other products are likely to deliver the same results. Use a polish which is based on an abrasive which gets successively finer as it is "applied". Put a quarter-sized blob on the foam pad and work an area about 18"x36". Go back and forth and up and down until the polish is "exhausted" (defined as the surface is dry and clean -- no longer able to feel the polish -- you can usually "see" when the section is done).
Apply only a moderate to light pressure unless you are experienced. Do not rush. The polish will remove the swirls that we freakin' perfectionists hate. HAHAHA.
Lightly buff the windows while polishing the surrounding areas -- no need to use extra materials -- just go over them once or twice.
Go over the car with a small, clean cotton towel (one foot by two feet). Make sure all the residual polish is buffed off. Don't buff in circles, just back and forth, up and down.
4. Acrylic Polymer.
Some prefer to use wax alone. I prefer polymer first followed by wax. Wax eventually evaporates over time, leaving the acrylic polymer which is good for at least 6 months. Using both provides the longest lasting best "bullet-proof" protection/shine.
I use the Klasse All-in-One followed by Klasse Glaze, both applied by hand (search it out online). Many users endlessly debate number of coats. Why? If you overcoat it with carnauba and renew it with carnauba car wash/wax every week no acrylic can look better regardless of the number of coats. Acrylic can't go over wax, hence the DAWN.
Others use Zaino. Great.
Do the windows so the rain beads off. Like Rain-X without the side effects/smearing.
5. Carnauba.
I use Griot's Carnauba (35% carnauba by weight -- no other wax contains more). It's the best, longest lasting wax there is (up to 6 months).
Or, use whatever wax you like. OK.
Wax pad on, cotton towel buff off. Maybe microfiber here, but cotton works for me. Don't put on too much. This stuff gets very hard on the car's surface and is difficult to buff off if applied too thickly. No special measurement skills involved -- just don't blob it on.
Don't forget -- windows included as well.
That's it. I usually figure the whole process is a full day in length.
Tires and interior ... another time.
CAVEAT: Your car will look so beautiful (for so long) and feel so silky slick, that you'll be tempted to do the SUV. That will take 2 days, unless you're young and strong.
YMMV. Enjoy.
1. Wash the car.
For weekly washings, I use some Blue Coral Wash and Wax from WalMart. It has carnauba and costs about $3 for a gallon. This refreshes the "base shine" and keeps the water beading. The secret is to use too much -- instead of the recommended 1-2 oz per bucket, use 5+ oz. So what ...
I use the same solution on the wheels/tires AFTER finishing the washing of the car. This process exhausts the suds.
After washing, rinse and then dry the car. I use a Cali blade and finish up with a synthetic chamois. You may like other materials. That's up to you. Micro fibers don't dry a car well. I gave mine away.
You can wash the car outside, just don't do it in the hot sun. A hot car surface is "soft" and easily scratched. You may not notice it until the end when the "swirls" tick you off.
The rest of what follows is a guideline for the quarterly/semi-annual "base shine" process. (NOTE: If you are doing the full Monty, use a minimal amount of Blue Coral in the initial wash process.)
2. Clay.
Since you're going to clay the car, don't bother drying it off.
I use Meguiar's Clay, but any clay will do. Use a hand sprayer to wet down a small area and go up and down or back and forth. My sprayer is the Meguiar's lube that comes with the clay. Use whatever the manufacturer recommends. Supposedly, water with/without soap will work as well -- I don't know.
Use no pressure. Allow the clay to glide over the surface. After each section, fold the clay to expose a new area. Its sticky surface pulls "embedded" dirt off the "clean" (freshly washed) surface -- you can see the dirt on the clay. Do the whole car (except the wheels/tires). I always treat the windows as part of the car's surface.
Since you're doing the quarterly/semi-annual "base shine", you should wash the car AGAIN, but this time use DAWN. Don't worry about the car finish. A couple of DAWN washes a year won't have any effect on your epoxy paint (especially compared to the acid rain present in all American cities). DAWN will remove previous wax coats and make the surface ready for the follow-up processes. Dry the car. Pull it inside the garage and let the surface cool off.
3. Polish.
If you haven't polished the car in the last year, or two, then polish it. Otherwise you can skip this step. If this is the first time you are doing the "base shine", buy a Porter Cable orbital (about $100). It's the "best in breed" and you will keep it for the rest of your life. I only use the Porter Cable for the polish, but many use it for waxing, buffing, etc.
Polish the car according to the manufacturer's instructions. I use 3M "Perfect It" for dark cars, but other products are likely to deliver the same results. Use a polish which is based on an abrasive which gets successively finer as it is "applied". Put a quarter-sized blob on the foam pad and work an area about 18"x36". Go back and forth and up and down until the polish is "exhausted" (defined as the surface is dry and clean -- no longer able to feel the polish -- you can usually "see" when the section is done).
Apply only a moderate to light pressure unless you are experienced. Do not rush. The polish will remove the swirls that we freakin' perfectionists hate. HAHAHA.
Lightly buff the windows while polishing the surrounding areas -- no need to use extra materials -- just go over them once or twice.
Go over the car with a small, clean cotton towel (one foot by two feet). Make sure all the residual polish is buffed off. Don't buff in circles, just back and forth, up and down.
4. Acrylic Polymer.
Some prefer to use wax alone. I prefer polymer first followed by wax. Wax eventually evaporates over time, leaving the acrylic polymer which is good for at least 6 months. Using both provides the longest lasting best "bullet-proof" protection/shine.
I use the Klasse All-in-One followed by Klasse Glaze, both applied by hand (search it out online). Many users endlessly debate number of coats. Why? If you overcoat it with carnauba and renew it with carnauba car wash/wax every week no acrylic can look better regardless of the number of coats. Acrylic can't go over wax, hence the DAWN.
Others use Zaino. Great.
Do the windows so the rain beads off. Like Rain-X without the side effects/smearing.
5. Carnauba.
I use Griot's Carnauba (35% carnauba by weight -- no other wax contains more). It's the best, longest lasting wax there is (up to 6 months).
Or, use whatever wax you like. OK.
Wax pad on, cotton towel buff off. Maybe microfiber here, but cotton works for me. Don't put on too much. This stuff gets very hard on the car's surface and is difficult to buff off if applied too thickly. No special measurement skills involved -- just don't blob it on.
Don't forget -- windows included as well.
That's it. I usually figure the whole process is a full day in length.
Tires and interior ... another time.
CAVEAT: Your car will look so beautiful (for so long) and feel so silky slick, that you'll be tempted to do the SUV. That will take 2 days, unless you're young and strong.
YMMV. Enjoy.
04-28-2003, 10:10 AM
#35
Burning Brakes
Eric R:
Your method sounds like it will work for a few years. However, by using a clay bar and Dawn, you are hastening the time your car will need a new paint job. This in not just an opinion, as I've seen it happen.
Enjoy the shine - while it lasts. YMMV
Your method sounds like it will work for a few years. However, by using a clay bar and Dawn, you are hastening the time your car will need a new paint job. This in not just an opinion, as I've seen it happen.
Enjoy the shine - while it lasts. YMMV
04-28-2003, 10:40 AM
#36
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Ed R:
W/R/T CLAY: You're incorrect about the clay bar being abrasive. The MO is "sticky-ness". You don't rub it on the car, you glide it over the surface. It only picks up materials on top of the surface. The last car I clayed was white and the dirt coming off was brown. Do a little more research.
W/R/T DAWN: This material will affect the finish on a car but only minimally. It removes wax and oils, and that may include a very small portion of the plasticizers present in any/all automotive paint. I recommend its usage twice a year. The cummulative effect would be amount to much less than that of driving in the (acid) rain.
If you are concerned about the longevity of the car's finish, I suggest that you select a non-abrasive polish. The one I use, MMM "Perfect It" has a mild abrasive that breaks down as it is used. I suggest polishing once every couple of years. However, concours "garage queen" owners require a different approach. They should use an oily finish which "fills" swirls as the desired methodology. The shine on my daily driver would not stand up to Florida rain for more than a couple of days with that cr*p.
Everyone makes choices. The real world has tradeoffs.
Good driving ...
W/R/T CLAY: You're incorrect about the clay bar being abrasive. The MO is "sticky-ness". You don't rub it on the car, you glide it over the surface. It only picks up materials on top of the surface. The last car I clayed was white and the dirt coming off was brown. Do a little more research.
W/R/T DAWN: This material will affect the finish on a car but only minimally. It removes wax and oils, and that may include a very small portion of the plasticizers present in any/all automotive paint. I recommend its usage twice a year. The cummulative effect would be amount to much less than that of driving in the (acid) rain.
If you are concerned about the longevity of the car's finish, I suggest that you select a non-abrasive polish. The one I use, MMM "Perfect It" has a mild abrasive that breaks down as it is used. I suggest polishing once every couple of years. However, concours "garage queen" owners require a different approach. They should use an oily finish which "fills" swirls as the desired methodology. The shine on my daily driver would not stand up to Florida rain for more than a couple of days with that cr*p.
Everyone makes choices. The real world has tradeoffs.
Good driving ...
04-28-2003, 08:39 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Eric:
It is you who needs to do more research. The clay bars have abrasives in them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Ok, technically clay bars do have abrasives in them, however:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
Many clay products claim to contain no abrasives. This is stretching the truth. The reason many clay manufacturers claim their products don't contain an abrasive is because the general public thinks the word "abrasive" refers only to aggressive, paint removing materials. The fact is the abrasives in most automotive clay products are so fine that you will not see any reduction in paint gloss. After several uses, paint luster may even improve </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Above quote from here:
<a href="http://www.autopia-carcare.com/clwicl.html" target="_blank">http://www.autopia-carcare.com/clwicl.html</a>
As you can see, the abrasive is inconsequential.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">If they didn't it would not matter how much pressure is applied.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Clay does not work by ‘sanding’ as you imply. Instead, it envelops and pulls the contaminant away by gliding the clay over the surface with a lubricant:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
The final solution, a special clay bar, was developed in Japan nearly five years ago. This clay safely removes rail dust and industrial fallout by "pulling" it off the surface. It does not "cut" or perform any abrasive action normally associated with polishing or compounding.
Note: Clay bars will not remove scratches, swirls or dull, oxidized paint.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Above quote from here:
<a href="http://www.properautocare.com/usclaybartor.html" target="_blank">http://www.properautocare.com/usclaybartor.html</a>
There are many more sites which state the same and support Eric R.
It is you who needs to do more research. The clay bars have abrasives in them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Ok, technically clay bars do have abrasives in them, however:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
Many clay products claim to contain no abrasives. This is stretching the truth. The reason many clay manufacturers claim their products don't contain an abrasive is because the general public thinks the word "abrasive" refers only to aggressive, paint removing materials. The fact is the abrasives in most automotive clay products are so fine that you will not see any reduction in paint gloss. After several uses, paint luster may even improve </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Above quote from here:
<a href="http://www.autopia-carcare.com/clwicl.html" target="_blank">http://www.autopia-carcare.com/clwicl.html</a>
As you can see, the abrasive is inconsequential.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">If they didn't it would not matter how much pressure is applied.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Clay does not work by ‘sanding’ as you imply. Instead, it envelops and pulls the contaminant away by gliding the clay over the surface with a lubricant:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
The final solution, a special clay bar, was developed in Japan nearly five years ago. This clay safely removes rail dust and industrial fallout by "pulling" it off the surface. It does not "cut" or perform any abrasive action normally associated with polishing or compounding.
Note: Clay bars will not remove scratches, swirls or dull, oxidized paint.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Above quote from here:
<a href="http://www.properautocare.com/usclaybartor.html" target="_blank">http://www.properautocare.com/usclaybartor.html</a>
There are many more sites which state the same and support Eric R.
04-28-2003, 08:41 PM
#39
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I have had very good experiences with using clay on both of my cars. Yes, there is a reason why you only glide the clay over the paint surface. It's not because of abrasiveness, it's because if you bear down hard on the clay the medium that you are using for lubricant (whatever the clay manufacturer recommends) will quickly be pushed aside by the clay and then it will cause the clay to stick and drag on the surface. The clay isn't abrasive, proper lubrication and proper technique are the key to using it properly.
04-28-2003, 11:27 PM
#40
Burning Brakes
Whenever you apply an abrasive to the paint, even lightly, you run the risk of removing paint.
If you were to look at a side view of your painted body panels through a magnifying glass, you'd see that it is not a perfectly smooth surface. There are ridges and valleys. Using an abrasive tends to flatten the ridges, but do nothing to the valleys.
Hand glazes on the other hand tend to leave the ridges alone, but fill-in the valleys, which is far less damaging to the overall finish.
Like I originally said, Concourists don't use abrasives to get show car shines. Use the clay bar to remove overspray which is what it was originally made to do. YMMV.
If you were to look at a side view of your painted body panels through a magnifying glass, you'd see that it is not a perfectly smooth surface. There are ridges and valleys. Using an abrasive tends to flatten the ridges, but do nothing to the valleys.
Hand glazes on the other hand tend to leave the ridges alone, but fill-in the valleys, which is far less damaging to the overall finish.
Like I originally said, Concourists don't use abrasives to get show car shines. Use the clay bar to remove overspray which is what it was originally made to do. YMMV.
04-29-2003, 02:33 AM
#41
USMarine
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Ed Ruiz:
<strong>Eric R:
by using a clay bar and Dawn, you are hastening the time your car will need a new paint job. This in not just an opinion, as I've seen it happen.
Enjoy the shine - while it lasts. YMMV</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I know that is right!
<strong>Eric R:
by using a clay bar and Dawn, you are hastening the time your car will need a new paint job. This in not just an opinion, as I've seen it happen.
Enjoy the shine - while it lasts. YMMV</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I know that is right!
