turbo944

Well, I will chime in here with my .951 cents...

I've just recently (finally!) bought my first Porsche, a 944 Turbo (which could use a paintjob with 116,000 miles of rock chips and a few scratches on it) and I decided to try the Zaino, especially after reading some of the comments by people on the NSX list who did a big wax test and found it the best.

First off, as for the Dawn, Zaino recommends it as well, but only for a one-time wash just to remove old wax and help remove some other grease/grime/oil. Immediately after that and a good rinsing, I went and used the Zaino Clay Bar, and then washed the car again to make sure that any clay residue was gone (shouldn't have been any, but I did it anyway...). I couldn't believe how much extra the clay bar got out of the paint. However according to Zaino it's not something you do all the time, just whenever you get ready to wax again as it could take the wax off of your car. After that I used their new ZFX accelerant with the swirl polish and applied it per their directions on the website, wiped it down and did their gloss shining, another coat of the polish, then another gloss coat. This past week I added the first of the their show car polish which is supposed to have a higher rating for depth and glossiness. All I can say is, WOW!! It's done fantastic for that tired paint. Of course I now see every little flaw in it, but the water sheets off of it and where it can't sheet down it is beaded up and slides off very easily. I've been very impressed with it. Drove it this past Monday in the wet for the first time with it on the car and I was amazed that it wasn't more spotty and dirty. It's done an amazing job helping to keep the dirty water from sticking and drying.

As for my tires and trim, Zaino has a non-silicone based/containing tire gloss that doesn't leave a super shiny surface, but makes it nice and black again. I used it on all of the exterior rubber and plastic as it says it works with both and all that gray is black again and it lasts compared to those old tire foams and such that seemed to fade after a few days. Went through a washing and it still looked nice and black and wasn't greasy either. Also quite easy to clean off if you accidentally get a little bit on glass or the body.

Overall I'm very impressed. I've used a few different things over the years with different cars and hadn't really cared the last couple of years with the POS I own (and am now selling to help pay for the Porsche) and so my old stuff had all either dried up, was used up then and never replaced, or I just didn't have (tire gloss and clay bar).

Now I just wish I could get the car repainted so I could get it to look as nice as that 928 and Bimmer on this page....WOWZA!!!!!!! Still am amazed at the hood reflection on the BMW.

Cheers!

Randy V

Here's a simple way to determine if your car may be a candidate for a 'clay job':

Immediately after washing the car, with the surface still wet from the final rinse, slide your hand over the hood and fender areas. The paint should feel like wet glass - no bumps or imperfections. Most cars that are driven regularly will have these imperfections.

Those 'bumps', while usually invisible to the naked eye, degrade the refective qualities of the finish. They could be the result of wax build-up, microscopic road tar deposits, tree sap, etc. This is what is removed by the clay.

dr bob

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by PRDATR:
<strong>&lt;...&gt;

I have personally tried each of these products and a few more with the exception of Zaino and the clay bar (which I am interested in trying ... I think the results will be identical to 3M Hand glaze but I am wondering about the level of effort- more or less).
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Different products do different things. The clay bar takes off the stuff that's landed on the paint. Stuff that stands up from the surface. Paint overspray is my favorite, but bug droppings, tree sap, etc, all fall into (onto?) the list of things that the claty will remove. Once that's done, you need to use the glaze to fill any minor imperfections and maybe help some with remaining dirt that's embedded in the paint. So, clay and glaze are not interchangeble, you get to use both!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><strong>

Using Dawn!- Let me just say this- Bad move! Infact, maybe it's a good idea to occasionally use car wash to do dishes in the house. This is not really an interchangable option. The Ph alkalines in dish soap will murder the the finish on your car over time. What is the opposite of an alkaline? An acid, too far in either direction and the further you move away from a neutral Ph the results are caustic, by the way, Sodiuum Hydroxide is an alkaline I guess using diluted small parts of that to strip old wax off your precious is a good idea too ...take my word for this BTDT! Just invest $3 in a bottle of TurtleWax car wash where the alkalines are as close to neutral as possible and milder on your paint. You may have to use more of it to get remove grime from your car but it is much safer for your paint over the long term.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">So much misinformation! Without betraying my knowledge of the ingredients in Dawn, consider that a product with a pH that high would leave you empty-handed after a few loads of dishes. The pH is buffered to almost neutral so it doesn't damage you expensive silver, the aluminum cookie sheet, your wife's tin wedding ring, etc. It won't hurt your paint any more than any other detergent that takes away oil and grease. Car wash soaps are mild detergents with some extra emolients and silicone added to brighten the results. They often include water softening agents to tie up the free calcium in your wash water.

The common warning about dishwashing detergents is aimed more at dishWASHER detergents, where the pH is -low- (that's acidic for those playing along at home...) because they are used in a relatively safe environment inside the dishwasher.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">

3M hand glaze it- This is not necessary to do each time you wash and wax your car but you can easily tell when it needs to be done after you washed the car. With your hand feel the surface of the car and if it feels like it is not clean or as if debris is imbedded in the wax on the surface- it's time to hand glaze.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hmmm. The clay is what you really want to use to get off stuff that you can feel. Too much work using glaz for that part. Use the glaze after the clay, as I mentioned above. You'll find that the glaze is much easier after the clay, since you are doing mostly filling and much less grinding with it.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is using soft water to wash the car. Difference is dramatic especially on dark colors. The free calcium in the water makes crystals as it dries on your paint, sometimes in the shapes of the water drops that bore the calcium. If you use soap, the calcium makes a neat stearate compound popularly known as soap scum. Put the two together and you have that grey haze on your black car after only a few washings. Install a softener, or get one of those hose-end softeners just for the car wash.

<img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

DoubleNutz

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">So much misinformation! Without betraying my knowledge of the ingredients in Dawn, consider that a product with a pH that high would leave you empty-handed after a few loads of dishes. The pH is buffered to almost neutral so it doesn't damage you expensive silver, the aluminum cookie sheet, your wife's tin wedding ring, etc. It won't hurt your paint any more than any other detergent that takes away oil and grease. Car wash soaps are mild detergents with some extra emolients and silicone added to brighten the results. They often include water softening agents to tie up the free calcium in your wash water.

The common warning about dishwashing detergents is aimed more at dishWASHER detergents, where the pH is -low- (that's acidic for those playing along at home...) because they are used in a relatively safe environment inside the dishwasher.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">So much misinformation? Hmmmm ok I won't argue with you on this this one I will just chalk it up as misinformation from Sikkens (my paint manufacturer for the PRDATR). Of course they would only publish misinformation about the care and maintenance of their automotive paint on their web site <a href="http://www.sikkenscr.com/." target="_blank">http://www.sikkenscr.com/.</a> It appears they don't know what is best for their products.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Shampooing the Paint:

These techniques will cover the types of solutions, brushes, wash mitt options and hand washing techniques. There is no safe alternative to washing your vehicle by hand with a neutral pH shampoo, developed for automotive finishes. Do not use household detergents because they are formulated to remove grease and to scour metal and porcelain. As a result, they will also remove the wax or polish on the paint surface and accelerate the process of oxidation.

When you are ready to wash the vehicle, make sure that the paint surface is cool to the touch and wash from the top down. We recommend that you use either a natural fiber mitt or a shampoo pad. Follow the manufacturer's instructions regarding the amount of shampoo to use (the tendency is to use too much). Wash the vehicle in small sections (the top or the hood as examples) with frequent rinsing to prevent the water and the contaminants that you are removing from drying on the surface of the paint. The minerals in the water can also etch the paint if they are allowed to dry on the surface. Rinse your mitt or sponge frequently as you progress down the sides of the vehicle, since there is more dirt and contaminants closer to the ground. When you reach the wheels and tires give them a second washing to assure they are as clean as possible and ready for the next step in the process. Finish the washing step with a complete rinse of the entire vehicle.

There are two steps in the drying process to get the best results. The first step is to remove the largest volume of the water from the entire vehicle. We recommend either a chamois or a large 100% cotton towel. The second step is to towel dry all surfaces, including the windows and wheels. If you have an air compressor, it's a good idea to blow out all the channels where water can accumulate. If you don't, and you want to accomplish essentially the same goal you can drive the car around the block before you start the final drying process. It's surprising how much water collects around the windows, doors and the bumpers. It is a good idea to dry the windows and the top as quickly as possible to avoid spotting. Open all the doors, the engine compartment and the trunk to eliminate any remaining run off and water tracks from the channels and jambs. Roll the windows down a few inches to clean the dirt from the seal area at the top and sides of the glass. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Doc, i am bit confised about who is providing misinformation Sikkens or ...? <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

DoubleNutz

Just some additional info from the paint manufacturer, still wondering if i am spreading MISINFORMATION...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Abrasives, Compounds and Glaze Products:

These products remove paint from your vehicle's surface. The only question is how much. There are several paint conditions where there is no alternative to the use of an abrasive product to correct the problem, but you should always use great care in the selection of the product and be sure to start with the least invasive product that will correct your vehicle's paint damage. There is no turning back when you use an abrasive and there is no way to put the paint back on when you go too far. The range of abrasive grit can be thought of as roughly comparable to wet sand paper. There are compound products that will be equivalent to the highest level of sandpaper or approximately 2000 grit.

The types of paint damage that will usually require one of these products include heavy oxidation, water spotting where there is a high concentration of minerals, paint overspray that has bonded over an extended time and several types of air pollution that contain various acid components. The normal procedure is to use an applicator and to cover an area of 2X2 feet with a back and forth motion. The product should not be allowed to dry and should be removed when it becomes cloudy or tacky. Depending on the type of contaminant and the depth of the problem area that must be removed, there may be the need to use more than one product to first eliminate the problem and then eliminate the scratches in the paint surface that result from the use of the first compound. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Clay bar products are most frequently used to remove paint over spray or contamination on a car. Contamination consists of tiny metal shavings from rail dust, brake dust and industrial fallout. This contamination affects all paint finishes and can cause serious damage when left untreated. Paint contamination can be felt as a "rough or gritty" texture on the paint's surface and can lead to tiny rust spots.

There is no wax, natural or synthetic, or any chemical treatment that can prevent or protect against this contamination. Compounding with an abrasive polish may remove this contamination but it can only be performed a few times before removing too much of the top, clear coat finish.

The solution to this problem is a clay bar, which safely removes over spray, and industrial fallout by "pulling" it off the surface. What differentiates a clay bar from other abrasive polishing or compounding solutions is that it does not perform any abrasive actions.

When clay bars were brought to the United States several other usages were found for them. Clay bars were found to be effective for removing over spray, tree sap, acid rain & water spots and a variety of other surface contaminants.

Today, professional detailers and body shops use clay bars as a simple, safe way to remove over spray and surface contaminants from painted surfaces, including chrome and glass.

How to use clay bars:

The clay bars are used in conjunction with either soapy water or a spray detail product as a wetting agent for the gentle rubbing of the paint surface with the clay. This process is similar to wet sand paper procedures. Clay bars should always be used on freshly washed, clean surfaces. Dirt on the surface could cause scratches.

It is recommended you start out by working on a small area of a few square feet at a time, gliding the clay bar on the paint surface misting the paint surface with the soapy water or spray detail lubricant. At first you should feel a slight resistance on the surface when running the bar over the paint. As you go over the same area repeated times you will feel less friction until the surface glides smoothly. When the bar moves freely you are done. Wipe the surface with a clean dry towel and continue in sections until the entire vehicle is complete.

As the bar becomes soiled, simply pull, stretch and refold to expose a new, clean side. When the bar becomes totally soiled (dark colored) discard it. Typical life span of a 4 oz. bar is about 10 to 12 cars. If a bar falls on the ground immediately throw it away, and use a new bar. Failure to do so can result in scratches on your paints surface from picked up debris. Upon completion, spray the bar with lubricant and store in an airtight container or zip-lock storage bag.

If the paint is in good condition and free of scratches, proceed with your favorite wax.
Note: Clay bars will not remove scratches, swirls or dull, oxidized paint.
If working on an older vehicle with dull paint and/or surface swirls, follow the claying process with your favorite polish, then wax. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Abrasives, Compounds and Glaze Products:

These products remove paint from your vehicle's surface. The only question is how much. There are several paint conditions where there is no alternative to the use of an abrasive product to correct the problem, but you should always use great care in the selection of the product and be sure to start with the least invasive product that will correct your vehicle's paint damage. There is no turning back when you use an abrasive and there is no way to put the paint back on when you go too far. The range of abrasive grit can be thought of as roughly comparable to wet sand paper. There are compound products that will be equivalent to the highest level of sandpaper or approximately 2000 grit.

The types of paint damage that will usually require one of these products include heavy oxidation, water spotting where there is a high concentration of minerals, paint overspray that has bonded over an extended time and several types of air pollution that contain various acid components. The normal procedure is to use an applicator and to cover an area of 2X2 feet with a back and forth motion. The product should not be allowed to dry and should be removed when it becomes cloudy or tacky. Depending on the type of contaminant and the depth of the problem area that must be removed, there may be the need to use more than one product to first eliminate the problem and then eliminate the scratches in the paint surface that result from the use of the first compound. [/QUOTE] </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Applying and Buffing Polymers and Waxes:

There are two primary product categories on the market for protecting automotive paint finishes. These product categories are polymers, which are synthetic, man made substances, and waxes, which are naturally occurring substances found in trees. All of the products in these categories are generically described as resins.

There has been a great deal of discussion regarding the merits of each product category and there are individuals that strongly support each one. The argument has been made that the naturally occurring substances are somehow superior to the synthetic products simply because they are natural. My comment in this regard is that there is nothing about automotive paint finishes that is "natural" in their chemical formulation. The synthetic polymers are, in fact, more similar to the chemical composition of the paint itself than the natural products. This does not mean that one product category is superior to another. It is only a statement of fact.

A better basis for how to decide on a product to use on your vehicle is to evaluate the combination of factors that are important to you over the long term (approximately one year). The factors that seem to be of most significance to most people are as follows:

Cost per application - coupled with durability and appearance.
Depth of gloss - difficult to evaluate consistently.
Ease of use - relatively easy to assess.
Durability - subjective but measurable to some degree.
There are several general comments that can be made about the categories, even though there are a broad range of products and it is not practical to spell out specific steps in the use of each one. The information which follows is deliberately generic and intended to not offend any of the individual manufacturers.

Essentially all of the manufacturers will recommend that the finish product should be applied in a front to back motion with either a 100% cotton cloth or applicator pad. The amount of time that should elapse and the appearance of the product while it is drying/curing varies dramatically. This time factor can range from minutes for waxes to days, if you choose to achieve maximum bonding for polymers. In most buffing steps the gloss will be enhanced if the product is misted with water (sprayed lightly) prior to removal. This step will produce a more burnished final appearance, but it will require substantially more time and effort. For the individual who wants the highest level of final gloss this step is worth the effort, even though the manufacturer will not usually indicate this procedure in their instructions.

All polymer and wax products should be hand finished. The use of a rotary buffer is not recommended, unless it is in the hands of a highly qualified professional. The risks are too high relative to the damage that can be done. Use of an orbital buffer with either a high quality cotton or foam pad, can reduce the effort of removal of the finish product while incurring only a very low risk of damage to the surface. In all cases, the final step in removal should be by hand.

There are a number of tools that are associated with the detailing of the paint surface when the finish product is being removed. These tools will be discussed in a later section of this handbook. These tools make the difference between an adequate final appearance and an outstanding one.

Polymers:

The initial cost of most polymers will be higher than their counterpart waxes. This acquisition cost must be evaluated in the light of the per application amount of the product used. Essentially all of the manufacturers will make a strong point of the small amount of product which should be used on the paint surface. This is truly a situation where less is best.

As a general statement, polymers will last longer than waxes. This durability factor is of significant consideration to many people. The range of different product life spans will vary, but there can be a factor of up to three to five times when compared to waxes.

Across the board, there is an edge to the polymers when comparing ease of use. They will go on easier and come off faster with minimal effort. An additional benefit is the clarity and refractive consistency that the polymers produce on the finish surface. Most polymers can also be applied easily to glass and to metal. If this is the case, there is an additional benefit relative to wheels in particular. The ability to remove brake dust can be dramatically improved with little effort.

When comparing depth of gloss, the high quality waxes have an edge. You will find that the majority of show cars will have wax finishes. There is no question that there are a number of polymer products that are excellent, but for the short term (3 to 5 days) environment, most show car owners will use a high quality wax.

Waxes:

In most cases the acquisition cost of waxes is lower. As indicated in the comments on polymers, there is the need to think about the per application cost and the frequency, when considering cost. There is a much wider range of wax products to choose from, when compared to polymers. The more expensive wax products frequently provide extensive instructions for their use. If you follow these instructions you will achieve outstanding results.

Due to the fact that the waxes do not bond as well to the paint surface as the polymers do, the life of the waxes will be shorter than the polymers. The stripping effect of many of the shampoo/soaps will be higher with waxes, especially if the shampoo is not formulated for paint finishes and/or has a high phosphate content.

The top quality waxes have an excellent depth of gloss and brilliance. In general they are more time consuming to apply and to remove. They will also be prone to producing a wavy, somewhat uneven, reflection of light unless care is taken in both the application and the buffing steps.

Utilizing Spray Detailers and Dry Washes:

These products are all interim maintenance in nature for non-porous surfaces, rather than long term solutions.. Many of them are essentially diluted versions of the primary wax or polymer products that the manufacturer offers. They are very good for fast and easy application and removal of dust, fingerprints, smudges, smears and with some cases tree sap, bird droppings and water spotting. The spray detailers can be used on paint, glass and metal. They represent one of the better options for exterior glass cleaning in particular. Although not a durable solution, they can be used as an option to washing the vehicle.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">

Lagavulin

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Here's a simple way to determine if your car may be a candidate for a 'clay job':

Immediately after washing the car, with the surface still wet from the final rinse, slide your hand over the hood and fender areas. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">A good idea, but going one step further, wrap you hand in a piece of cellophane or a baggie first; the sensation will be magnified. But dry the car first.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">So much misinformation! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Guilty as charged; thanks for the schooling. The Zaino Brothers do recommend using Dawn for that evidently wrong reason though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hmmm. The clay is what you really want to use to get off stuff that you can feel. Too much work using glaz for that part. Use the glaze after the clay, as I mentioned above.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes, that is right on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Put the two together and you have that grey haze on your black car after only a few washings.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Oh my gosh, so that's what's happening to my car!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">or get one of those hose-end softeners just for the car wash. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Where can one buy one of those? I did a Google search and got a bunch of non-applicable stuff.

Thanks for the good tips!

Ed Ruiz

Folks:
I think this whole discussion is becoming one akin to religion. Since I used to be a concours judge, I learned what worked for the fastidious car show fanatics. What struck me as interesting was that a guy named Larry Reynolds gleaned information from these enthusiasts, and started a business selling car care and cleaning products.

He's has been online for a few years, and includes a section on how to clean nearly everything on a car. He sells excellent products as well as the not so good, but popular. Even though he'll make money selling the overpriced stuff, he tells it the way he sees it. If a cheaper product does a better job, he says so.

DoubleNutz

Ed I agree on the Carcare online website is a good one. In fact, I just spoke with Larry and had a lengthy chat with him about the use of Dawn, or any household detergent on your paint. He does not recommend it and like Sikkens says that those products like Dawn "strip the emolient oils from the paint of the car and hastens oxidation!" If in a pinch sure- use Dawn but don't make a habit of it. He did educate me that my use of even over the counter car washes is sometimes also a bad choice and in few cases Dawn may be a better choice to them. Nevertheless the first step in cleaning and shining paint is preserving the emolients in the paint and then restoring any that may be removed during the washing process. There are washing products that will accomplish this like P21S.

As for claying a car you should know that you are as removing paint from the car and there is an education anybody here reading this forum could benefit from after speaking with Larry... take my word for it- speak to him first before you do this and consider whether you still are gaining the benefits you are seeking. He equated hand glazing and claying like washing your face and shaving (respectively). Interesting information he had to offer there.

I think he also agrees that the paint manufacturers know what is best for their paint and you should not take the printed word off the side of a wax can as gospel unless you know something about the company or person who produced its content and whether the paint manufacturer endorses those processes or statements. Sikkens makes it very clear NOT TO USE HOUSEHOLD DETERGENTS. So 3-5 years from now when Zaino is long and gone, traded to Turtle Wax, or just another past automotive shine fad, after their users have immersed themselves to the bottom of a Dawn bottle and their paint looks like crap... the Paint manufacturer gets to say "we told you so!"

I never absolutely never use household detergents, Dawn or other on my Porsche paint and I think nobody would deny that my cars always look like a million dollars ...you could shave in the mirror shine.

OK, I will stop with the- misinformation. <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

dr bob

Pat:

The "misinformation" you were propogating is that somehow the Dawn is caustic and will damage the paint because of that. My point was and is that it isn't caustic. Is it "good" for your paint? Probably not. But neither is plain water, polish, glaze, or wax. So how far do you want to take this? The original statement was made in support of a detergent to remove the wax, as a first step in the paint restoration process. Choices are detergents or solvents. Or you can just grind it off with whatever abrasive you have handy. Doing it with polish or glaze means you get to grind with that, plus all the crud that's embedded in your wax already.

So, consider that while the dish detergent may not be the ideal solution to long paint life on its own, it is the least dangerous way to remove the old wax. And it isn't caustic.

turbo944

Pat,
I think that Zaino (who have been around for quite a few years already) only recommend the Dawn as mentioned as one time wash only for preparing your car for the new products. Not all waxes/polymers/etc are completely compatible with one another and if I was to wax or polish with something totally incompatible to what the PO may have used a short time back, then I run the risk of perhaps having hazy or cloudy looks to the car paint. For your new paint if you started with Zaino or whatever product, I would say that there should never be a reason to use Dawn on it as there should be no POs wax to remove and I certainly won't feel a need to do that when I get the car repainted as there will be no wax on it at that point from a previous owner. I think you have confused their initial preparation of your paint for long term care with a weekly regimen of cleaning it. Zaino sells a car wash product and it would be quite dumb of them to say to use Dawn to wash your car weekly instead of pushing their own car wash and I'm sure quite hurtful on their pocketbooks to make soap and recommend a $2 bottle of Dawn instead.

If not Dawn to remove all previous waxes/polishes that might have been on there before, what do you recommend? Or better yet, what does your paint manufacturer recommend you use to prevent haziness or other problems with incompatible products used on the car since they are who you are gleaning information from? I'm genuinely curious to know in case I get another car and need to properly prepare the surface for my initial application of the products I personally use.

Again, as long as I own the car and with the quality I've found in their products so far, as long as Zaino is around I think I'll be shopping with them. Not unless I really feel a need to try something else...in which case I'll need that aforementioned technique that your paint manufacturer recommends to do the work.

I definitely agree that it would be super silly to use Dawn on a regular basis on washing your car and I'm sure every one of these car care companies would agree. It isn't formulated to be used for car paint as has been said and it does remove the wax, so unless you like waxing your car every time you wash it, you are just exposing the paint directly the elements and keeping it that way. That definitely would incur problems much quicker with oxidation and eventual damage to the paint.

That is a gorgeous 928, BTW.

Oh, I have a picture of a woman on a 928 that I see you don't have on your website....she's putting a fair sized dent in the hood too!!

Cheers!
Andrew

Ed Ruiz

I think Larry Reynolds recommends using P21 Citrus Degreaser to remove old wax, grease, etc. However, do not use it if you intend to leave a good wax job on the finish. It will strip all the wax off as soon as it touches the surface. :^(

~ Merry motoring ~

DoubleNutz

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by turbo944:
<strong>

I definitely agree that it would be super silly to use Dawn on a regular basis on washing your car and I'm sure every one of these car care companies would agree. It isn't formulated to be used for car paint as has been said and it does remove the wax, so unless you like waxing your car every time you wash it, you are just exposing the paint directly the elements and keeping it that way. That definitely would incur problems much quicker with oxidation and eventual damage to the paint.

That is a gorgeous 928, BTW.

Oh, I have a picture of a woman on a 928 that I see you don't have on your website....she's putting a fair sized dent in the hood too!!

Cheers!
Andrew</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">First things First- POP that Photo over to me ASAP! I need more 928 Beauties posted on my site.

OK now that we got the most important topic out of the way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> - I think the emphasis in not on exposing the the paint to the elements but rather that products like Dawn only strip the emolients from your cars paint and dry it out (forget about dishpan hands, try dishpan paint) . There are auto shampooing products that do not dry out your paint as much as a household detergents like Dawn. Larry Reynolds recommends that in the stead of using Dawn to accomplish stripping of paint of waxes and to de-grease, a citrus based shampoo cleaner to limit the amount of emolients stripped from the paint.

As an example- P21S is among the mildest car wash product ever made. P21S Bodywork Conditioning Shampoo is made from a unique blend of wheat germ and sugar-based ingredients from the cosmetic field. A favorite of Germany's leading automakers.

By the way, I have been reading around the web on various wax tests (since this topic surfaced, just to get a feel for whether I am the looney on this topic). Zaino...nope not going on my Porsche. It all makes sense now why they reccomend you use Dawn to strip your car of wax. I have made a few mistakes but this is not one I am prepared to do. At the sacrifice of depth in your shine the Poly waxes are good for keeping a shine on yur car BUT, they are really made for your drive around daily Ford or Chebby. Carnuba my friends...waxes with Carnuba ingredient is more than 25% of the content. If you want a good shine

three steps-

1)Shampoo with a emolient enriching cleanser. Use Sonax or P21S Shampoo <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />
2)Polish or Hand Glaze when necessary (5 times a year should be sufficient)
3)WAX- CARNUBA...CARNUBA...CARNUBA <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />

That's how you keep a car beautiful. <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

turbo944

I'll dig out that photo tonight if I can find it (dang hard drive crash a couple of weeks ago). I know I have it backed up on at least 2 or 3 CDs, so it shouldn't be too hard to find. It is pretty risque though....moreso than any of the other pics on your website. But being that she's on a Porsche, it should be considered art

I will agree that the Zaino products are not as good for a super-deep glossy look as a Carnuba wax, however my Porsche is a daily driver right now and will be for probably at least a year or more (once I get moved and purchase me a little daily driver I am going to get it painted again in the original color), so I'm interested in being able to have a nice gloss longer since I don't get a chance to spend as much time waxing on the car as I'd like to. It's exposed to the elements on a daily basis, although she does get to at least sleep in a garage when not in use. Hopefully once I get my new demo tape done and get moved and working at a new job I'll have the time and money to get it repainted and then I can spend more time using that wax on the paint!

Thanks for info you guys on the P21S. I'll definitely have to look into that!

Cheers!

tobinr

I reviewed all of the pictures and advice that has been posted, Thanks!
However I thought my car was as shiny as the first Bimmer. I opened the original picture up which was 2048x1536 pixels and it looked great. Somewhere in the reduction process the detail was lost. So I attached a smaller piece of the original in its full glory (to stay within the upload limits). Hey it's Friday, I have to pump up my ego just a little...
I don't think I am the only one that shows off a little around here...

<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/mirrorshine2.jpg" alt=" - " />

<img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" />

Ell

Some detailers say that you should polish the car and not wax it.
I start the year off with a deep cleaning with the clay bar, then polish, and then I finish it off with a marina boat wax. I tried it once, knowing what kind of beating my boat got from the sun and water, I found that it keeps my car cleaner as well. Now when I drive through a rain storm (I don't try to drive in the rain)my car keeps the wax unlike the newer car wax that washes off.

Ell