OT - Legal Advice.......
05-28-2003, 06:02 AM
#16
Racer
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Bernie,
Lets hope that dumbass was not driving a shark. I really hate people that litter and extremely hate people that throw out lit cigarets. I have found butts in my air filter that have been sucked up with leafs and other road debris.
Another way of looking at it is like this. A neighbor down the street always walks their little dog down the street and lets it crap on our lawn. When asked to stop they said that the edge of the lawn was city easement. I said OK and didn't argue. I put my 100 lb German Shepherd on a leash and walked down to their yard and let him take a dump. I never saw the little dog again.
So I could only suggest that the dumbass take responsibility for their actions. They can do as they please on their own property but why mess up something that doesn't belong to you like another car or landscape.
Lets hope that dumbass was not driving a shark. I really hate people that litter and extremely hate people that throw out lit cigarets. I have found butts in my air filter that have been sucked up with leafs and other road debris.
Another way of looking at it is like this. A neighbor down the street always walks their little dog down the street and lets it crap on our lawn. When asked to stop they said that the edge of the lawn was city easement. I said OK and didn't argue. I put my 100 lb German Shepherd on a leash and walked down to their yard and let him take a dump. I never saw the little dog again.
So I could only suggest that the dumbass take responsibility for their actions. They can do as they please on their own property but why mess up something that doesn't belong to you like another car or landscape.
05-28-2003, 12:28 PM
#17
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Sorry Tony,
My warning ticket doesn't have any info regarding the office address. It just states that it was issued by the US Department of the Interior National Park Service. Look them up on the web and I'm sure you will be lead in the direction of where to pay your fine.
My warning ticket doesn't have any info regarding the office address. It just states that it was issued by the US Department of the Interior National Park Service. Look them up on the web and I'm sure you will be lead in the direction of where to pay your fine.
05-28-2003, 11:55 PM
#18
Instructor
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First off, ABSOLUTELY go to court. There's no harm. It upsets me that only 2% of people who get moving violation tickets go to court, yet half of them win!
In any case, was there a car in front of you? You might be able to claim that the cigarette could have been flung from the car in front of you and hit your windshield. I just took a quick look at the statute, and the "it flew out" defense won't work, as there doesn't need to be intent or even action on your part (wording: throw or discharge).
You can also try a "Trial by Declaration". This is one of the cooler things about CA Law. For Vehicle Code violations, you can request a TbD, which is a document you write stating your case. The officer is then forced to do the same. If you're lucky, he won't and you'll win (as long as you DO NOT admit to the offense). If you lose, (and here comes the cool part) you simply have to say "I didn't like that outcome" and you can get a brand new trial (Trial de Novo).
In any case, never admit to the cigarette having left your car, even in passing. You will be found guilty if you do. This sounds silly, but it's amazingly easy to admit the act. Good luck!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">23111. No person in any vehicle and no pedestrian shall throw or discharge from or upon any road or highway or adjoining area, public or private, any lighted or nonlighted cigarette, cigar, match, or any flaming or glowing substance. This section shall be known as the Paul Buzzo Act.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
In any case, was there a car in front of you? You might be able to claim that the cigarette could have been flung from the car in front of you and hit your windshield. I just took a quick look at the statute, and the "it flew out" defense won't work, as there doesn't need to be intent or even action on your part (wording: throw or discharge).
You can also try a "Trial by Declaration". This is one of the cooler things about CA Law. For Vehicle Code violations, you can request a TbD, which is a document you write stating your case. The officer is then forced to do the same. If you're lucky, he won't and you'll win (as long as you DO NOT admit to the offense). If you lose, (and here comes the cool part) you simply have to say "I didn't like that outcome" and you can get a brand new trial (Trial de Novo).
In any case, never admit to the cigarette having left your car, even in passing. You will be found guilty if you do. This sounds silly, but it's amazingly easy to admit the act. Good luck!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">23111. No person in any vehicle and no pedestrian shall throw or discharge from or upon any road or highway or adjoining area, public or private, any lighted or nonlighted cigarette, cigar, match, or any flaming or glowing substance. This section shall be known as the Paul Buzzo Act.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
05-29-2003, 12:57 AM
#19
Intermediate
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I'll just say this once and don't want to get into a debate. Everyone here is talking about trial by decl (accurate, you can do it) and not admitting your guilt etc. The bottom line is that IF you go to court and you SWEAR the oath, its something that you should respect and if you don't then you really don't want legal advice, you want a way to beat the system.
If you really did accidently drop this cigarette out the window, fine, fight the ticket. If you intentionally did this, step up, pay the fine and consider it a lesson learned or try and plead guilty to some lesser offense.
Bottom line, as an attorney I see people every day who don't respect the oath that they take. It seems as though a lot of folks here have kids and they need to see us as honest and responsible. Telling the truth is the only way to do it.
Stepping off the soap box.
Seth
If you really did accidently drop this cigarette out the window, fine, fight the ticket. If you intentionally did this, step up, pay the fine and consider it a lesson learned or try and plead guilty to some lesser offense.
Bottom line, as an attorney I see people every day who don't respect the oath that they take. It seems as though a lot of folks here have kids and they need to see us as honest and responsible. Telling the truth is the only way to do it.
Stepping off the soap box.
Seth
05-29-2003, 03:18 AM
#20
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Just to comment on Seth's self-admitted soapbox: Nowhere did I suggest that Bernie lie under oath. In fact, he will probably not want to testify at all (as is his right). It is completely within the oath taken to suggest alternate possibilities on cross of the officer. Note that I'm not a lawyer, and my experience with court has been from *many* times in traffic court and a whole bunch of times in small claims with a psycho landlady. However, I've seen way too many officers blatantly lie under oath that it seems the only way to get a fair trial is to lie yourself.
All in all, a good sentiment Seth, just one that seems a little optimistic.
All in all, a good sentiment Seth, just one that seems a little optimistic.
05-29-2003, 05:35 AM
#21
Burning Brakes
A friend of mine told me that if someone follows you for 3 miles or more, its harassement. A cop following you for 15 minutes, and you were doing 55, I'd say that would cover more than 3 miles... Check out the books on that one, but do yourself a favor and contest it. A ticket on your record costs you any way you slice it. How about a deferral? I know up here in Washington you can have it deffered, and if you have no moving violations in the next year, it doesn't go on your record and you just pay the $100 "court fee." Also if you request discovery in a timely fashion with certified mail with return receipt, and find out the ticket was not filed before 48 hours of issuing, you can have it dismissed on a 'late file' charge. Then again, California isn't washington so it could be completely different. Thats my unprofessional advice 
. Hope you get it dropped!
. Hope you get it dropped!
05-29-2003, 08:14 AM
#22
Racer
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AaronE
If you write a statement to defend your case and write that the item came from somewhere else, is that not still perjury? What would be the different in lie in the letter compared to under oath? And finally how would one write a letter confessing a not guilty position, when one is guilty, without lying?
I would follow Seth's advice and go to court and hope the cop fails to show, or beg for a lesser fine.
P.S. I am not a lawyer, only a citizen.
If you write a statement to defend your case and write that the item came from somewhere else, is that not still perjury? What would be the different in lie in the letter compared to under oath? And finally how would one write a letter confessing a not guilty position, when one is guilty, without lying?
I would follow Seth's advice and go to court and hope the cop fails to show, or beg for a lesser fine.
P.S. I am not a lawyer, only a citizen.
05-29-2003, 09:36 AM
#23
Three Wheelin'
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In 1999 I thru out a lit butt,
It landed on the lap of 250LBS-6ft5 STATE COP!
He pulled me over ?????
He got to the window and asked me if
I wound like to finish it.
He was one NICE cop!
It landed on the lap of 250LBS-6ft5 STATE COP!
He pulled me over ?????
He got to the window and asked me if
I wound like to finish it.
He was one NICE cop!
05-29-2003, 11:30 AM
#25
Three Wheelin'
Sometimes it's a matter of interpretation.
For example,
A policeman sees a car "drift" through a stop sign, not stopping completely. The officer pulls the driver over and inquires why the driver did not come to a complete stop. The driver explains that he slowed down almost to a stop and really, isn't that the same thing?
The officer starts beating the driver over the head with his flashlight and askes the driver "now, sir, would you like me to slow down, or would you like me to stop!!"
Moral- You see it your way, cop sees it his. Unless you can make a case that the cop is either lying or mistaken, I wouldn't challenge the basic facts. Be creative- "Yes, I did, but this is why" or "yes, it happened, but this is how" kind of thing.
For example,
A policeman sees a car "drift" through a stop sign, not stopping completely. The officer pulls the driver over and inquires why the driver did not come to a complete stop. The driver explains that he slowed down almost to a stop and really, isn't that the same thing?
The officer starts beating the driver over the head with his flashlight and askes the driver "now, sir, would you like me to slow down, or would you like me to stop!!"
Moral- You see it your way, cop sees it his. Unless you can make a case that the cop is either lying or mistaken, I wouldn't challenge the basic facts. Be creative- "Yes, I did, but this is why" or "yes, it happened, but this is how" kind of thing.
05-29-2003, 12:02 PM
#27
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EII - The wording goes something like this:
"Your honor, it's possible that the cigarette was thrown from the vehicle in front of me and bounced off my windshield."
You are not stating that this is what happened, rather you are simply providing doubt. And yes, lying in a trial be decl is perjury just as it is on the stand.
Finally, your last question is the wrong way to look at it. You are not required to prove your innocence (at least that's the way it should be. try telling that to some pro temp hearing your case...) You never say yes you did it OR no you didn't. Some might call this lying by omission, but to each their own.
And Greg (very funny by the way): "Be creative- "Yes, I did, but this is why" or "yes, it happened, but this is how" kind of thing."
This will get you found guilty. Every time. The law doesn't say "You are not allowed to throw a cigarette out of your car...unless you have a good reason." Reasons/circumstances don't matter. It may work with the cop, but not with a judge. At best, you will get a lesser sentence. At worst, you might have well just saved your time and paid the ticket.
PS. this is a minor peeve of mine too, by the way. what's wrong with using the ashtray? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
"Your honor, it's possible that the cigarette was thrown from the vehicle in front of me and bounced off my windshield."
You are not stating that this is what happened, rather you are simply providing doubt. And yes, lying in a trial be decl is perjury just as it is on the stand.
Finally, your last question is the wrong way to look at it. You are not required to prove your innocence (at least that's the way it should be. try telling that to some pro temp hearing your case...) You never say yes you did it OR no you didn't. Some might call this lying by omission, but to each their own.
And Greg (very funny by the way): "Be creative- "Yes, I did, but this is why" or "yes, it happened, but this is how" kind of thing."
This will get you found guilty. Every time. The law doesn't say "You are not allowed to throw a cigarette out of your car...unless you have a good reason." Reasons/circumstances don't matter. It may work with the cop, but not with a judge. At best, you will get a lesser sentence. At worst, you might have well just saved your time and paid the ticket.
PS. this is a minor peeve of mine too, by the way. what's wrong with using the ashtray? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
05-29-2003, 12:08 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
I keep thinking this will go away, but it doesn't and I don't mean to project "dumbass"-ness on to the national scene, but I will make a case here: this morning there is a statement by US colonel that there wasn't or isn't any evidence of a bunker in which Rumsfeld claims we could have gotten Saddam the first night of the war. There was no there there. I know this is only one part of the Big Lie but I think it is part of not taking responsibility for your actions. Not going to go into social/political rational here, but I have recently contributed to the financial health of NYC by paying traffic tickets that were both at best unequal applications of the law. Best example is not wearing seat belt. I had just driven 3 hours into the city WITH it, dropped off some baggage and was enroute to garage w/o belt in which the city speed limit is 35. Having been in air combat, I know what a seat belt is for and I wear it. Traffic is a bitch all along Broadway with double parked cars, always is, but the officer, in nice shiny riding boots pulls me for a BS violation; I wanted to spit. After I cooled off I paid, because there is no way out short of lying. Yet, our leaders lie everyday, while they line their pockets. Now, Brendan, I don't know, maybe you respect bush & co., and I'm not saying you are like them, I have benefited from your posts, but I posit the question, how do they get away with it?
05-29-2003, 12:30 PM
#29
Nordschleife Master
It's a non-moving violation - no points.
Just tell the Judge the DA simply didn't know and you (I mean the DA) won't do it again, the DA is Sorry and have the DA apologize.
Ask if there is anyway the DA not to get fined.
Remember, the judge sees countless motorists with Bull**** stories. If he/she sees that your trying to be honest - they appreciate that and tend to favor a dismissed sentence.
Just tell the Judge the DA simply didn't know and you (I mean the DA) won't do it again, the DA is Sorry and have the DA apologize.
Ask if there is anyway the DA not to get fined.
Remember, the judge sees countless motorists with Bull**** stories. If he/she sees that your trying to be honest - they appreciate that and tend to favor a dismissed sentence.
05-29-2003, 08:05 PM
#30
USMarine
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Andrew Olson:
<strong>You can always use the "Sneezing" defense! (I forget who first suggested it here, but I'm liking it more and more!)
"Your Honor. (aa aaaa aaaaaaa CHOOOO!) I was smoking when all of a sudden I had a sneezing fit! A rapid succession of 4, 5, or 6 sneezes. The cigarette inadvertainly fell out of my hand and was sucked out the window while I was attempting to maintain control of the vehicle."
LOL!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hmmm that actually sounds like a gewd idea!
<strong>You can always use the "Sneezing" defense! (I forget who first suggested it here, but I'm liking it more and more!)
"Your Honor. (aa aaaa aaaaaaa CHOOOO!) I was smoking when all of a sudden I had a sneezing fit! A rapid succession of 4, 5, or 6 sneezes. The cigarette inadvertainly fell out of my hand and was sucked out the window while I was attempting to maintain control of the vehicle."
LOL!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hmmm that actually sounds like a gewd idea!