dr bob

Followup to Enzo's post--

Local independent had to sue Volvo to get them to release the service/diagnostic software. It was technically available, but price sky high with indeterminate delivery. In complete contrast, the Lexus sofware is $300/yr. Lexus also offers full training programs to software owners and their techs. Lexus trainers regularly come to their shop to offer clinics, so that the independent techs stay completely up-to-date on all service and maintenance issues. Lexus feels that they are protecting their brand and keeping customers happy, even if they choose to get their services done by independents. Ther may be a lesson in here for other manufacturers someplace.

heinrich

Well, Lexus is Toyota, right? and Toyota's customer service is second to none.

heinrich

Another good example of this exact thing Erik, is the Porsche 928. How many of us have seen water pump bolt holes stripped from overtorquing; drilled/tapped threads; I had a hole in one cam gear from someone banging a screwdriver through it to hold it in lieu of a flywheel lock tool; I had a crank main pulley bent flat on one side from a large monkey pipe wrench to hold it in lieu of a flywheel lock; mangled electricals from a "professional" stereo instal job; wrong oil grade; wrong tyres BACK on FRONT; and so-on and so-on.

No..

If I had the choice between a 928 "professionally" or as Matt suggests "owner-serviced" over its lifetime and one dealer-serviced, I would opt for the dealer service car everytime. Yes Matt and you and I may know how to change oil and what grade is needed, but how does the average home grown lawyer/doctor/grandma know?

To suggest that my mom should change her own oil is stupid.

Bernie

Good timing on seeing this post.

I was at my buddies shop yesterday. He has a motorcycle shop in Ventura. When I got there, one of their mechanics was dropping the engine out of a older Yamaha sportbike (older one, can't recall model).
The camcover was off and he told me I had to see this. What I saw made me cringe. This particular bike was a shim under bucket style cam setup. 2 complete cylinders (middle 2 I believe) had all of the buckets on one side smashed into pieces!! I'm thinking that something went terribly wrong with the bike having never seen this kind of damage before. I asked him what the hell happened and he said that the owner attempted his own valve adjustment. Since its shim under bucket, the cams have to come out to reshim. At some point, he must have rotated the crank before putting the cams back in and they were grossly misaligned. Then, to add insult to injury, he didn't bother to hand turn the crank prior to ---------- yip!, hitting the starter after his "basic maintenance". Smashed the hell out the thing and cost himself a lot of money to repair the damage.

The flipside to this is that complete lack of preofessionalism I have discovered about the work done on my car by shops. Ignition wires missing all of their proper clamp downs and held with zip-ties, missing a bolt out of the waterpump, crank seal "sealed" with huge gobbs of orange silicone! I mean my gawd, if you are at the crank, why not replace the damn seal?

I guess my post neutralizes itself since it can go either way. The best thing to happen to me on this planet is forums like Rennlist. I cannot even begin to imagine that I would still own a 928 if it weren't for my finding this site and also taking it upon myself to learn how to work on cars and motorcycles. Having no background in mechanics whatsoever, I have managed to do all the work on my machines for at least 5 years now and have built 5 motorcycles from completely stripped to completely back on the road.

Cheers
Bernie

Ispeed

Hey, my 97 year old grandmother does her own detailing on her Accord. Anyone want to drop their car off for a thorough scrub down?
This is no joke, these pics are her washing her car. Now I see where I get it from!

dr bob

+1

At least at the dealer, there is a shred of 'do it the right way' philosophy trained into the techs. They generally have the parts resources too. It costs more, but we are talking about costs that a PO picked up already. I'm sure there are horror stories about cars that were trashed by dealer mechs too. In my experience, the dealers will do the work OK, but there's no WYAIT or extra care/cleaning/inspecting to be had from them.


You are hurtin' me, man! Doc, Les, anybody else here feelin' dis'd?

hacker-pschorr

To add to that, I will take a known P-car (or 928 specific) shop over any dealer any day of the week on a 928. Yes they are harder to find, they are out there. I'm lucky enough to have one a mile down the road.

Our friend Tim in Chicago learned this the hard way, the dealers have no idea what a 928 is much less how to fix them.

fabric

I'm not sure this is so true anymore. I've heard some real horror stories from a friend, and Toyota dealt with some sludge issues less than admirably, from what I've read. The first one of course is more of a dealer issue, and overall Toyota is pretty good, but nobody is perfect.

The flip side is, the reason new cars are so reliable certainly has something to do with the very sophisticated and proprietary technology manufactures put in these cars. When you try to do your own work, you are introducing variables that could result in a decrease in some of this reliability. Sure, changing the oil or brake pads, etc, isn't likely to do anything, but the manufacturer needs to cover all the bases. I don't fault them too much - I have no desire to work on my relatively new BMW or Mini. And as Nicole pointed out, you're probably paid for a lot of this maintenance already when you bought the car - it's not free, afterall.

Courtshark

Objection

and for those who don't know how to change their own oil...



The complaints are very real about smaller independent shops getting access to the proprietary software needed to properly diagnose, and for many/most new cars, fix certain problems. On Saabs, for example, there's the DICE/TWICE and TECH II systems all working together, controlling everything from engine management to a/c and alarm operation (for example, you can use DICE/TWICE to lower the chirp volume when operating the alarm system).

Snap On sells a general scanner tool that supposedly works on a huge variety of cars; I don't think it has many of the necessary capabilities, though, to do some of the functions described above.

hacker-pschorr

My local shop has different fluids (self branded) for Audi, BMW, Volvo, Mercedes etc... Everything from special coolant to brake fluid & even motor oil. Yes, it's a LOT more expensive than any brand we use.

Larry Velk

Here in the rust - belt you don't see older German cars (Golfs, old Passats, and the Nordic cars). The first time something breaks out of warranty the car (presumably) gets shipped to god knows where. I hate to start some sort of crazy arguement, but they just aren't that reliable and they are expensive to fix. The stuff that breaks is often strange stuff like power windows and the like.
In my experience the 928 is pretty good on critical systems ,but the little stuff like the radio speakers, door rattles, w/shield washers, etc. is not so good.

marton

How many reasons do you need not to buy a new car?

Marton

marton

Heinrich posted
So what is the message here?
Never buy a car that Heinrich worked on??

Marton

FlyingDog

I'm not saying everybody should service their own cars. I'm just saying that if you are completely incapable of following 4 or 5 simple steps to change oil, how can we expect you to react at 60mph to the other cars/people/animals on the road while drinking coffee, yelling at the kids, talking on the cell phone, changing the DVD for the kids, and checking out the hot guy/girl in the next lane?...unless you own one of their cars diing an oil-sludge death. Then you might as well bend over and take it in the #2 hole.

fraggle

Even though I started this thread, I'm with Bernie on this.

However, the number of shops I've found that I can trust to work on my own equipment numbers in the single digit: 1. .. and that's due to to a close relationship to my Ducati mechanic, who also taught me all I know about them... and he no longer works there, so I guess the answer is zero. I used to think it was two, then I bought my 928 and found some mistakes that could have been easily rectified when I did my t-belt job, and the last belt job had been done by the guys I used to trust.

Not to believe they aren't out there, but I'm not going to spend my time and cash testing every shop until I find one. I'm absolutely **** about the details on maintaining these things and not shortcutting work. Its my car, I want it done right, and I'll take the time to do it.

"Owner serviced" vs "Shop serviced" - On a car like the 928, it would depend on the owner. Definately a PPI and an interview!

On a Honda or similar? Dealer or shop serviced is fine with me. That's an appliance.