84 died then started 15mins later
10-13-2007, 05:21 PM
#1
84 died then started 15mins later
I just finished work on my 'new' 84 EuroS car, including timing belt, water pump, front seal, and oil pan gasket. I put everything together and the car wouldn't turn over. The starter just clicked. I got a new battery (although the recommended Walmart one isn't the right size) with no change. I swapped in another starter I have with no change. I grabbed the engine ground strap from my '79 and doubled them up on the 84, and it turned over normally. Went back to just the original strap to verify the problem, and it still turns fine. OK, that's strange and makes me a little nervous. (Any comments here are appreciated)
So I start her up and everything seemed fine. Check a few things, stop and start a few times, but it seems OK. Backed out of the garage and the car just dies. Fuel pump sounded good. Hooked up a timing light and it looked like there was no spark (although the sun was in my face and I didn't have a helper available, but I think I would have seen the light). I checked to make sure the cams were turning (fearing I did something wrong and broke the timing belt). It was fine but it just wouldn't start. Tried to push it back into the garage but I couldn't get it solo, so I put it in 1st and let my new, mis-sized battery do the pushing. Well, as I got inside the car fired up. Seems to run now, but it seems safe to assume it's just waiting for an opportunity to strand me.
So from the searches I did I see some possible causes being a faulty alarm, relay, crank sensor, or computer
as the obvious culprits. I'm a little lost on the terminology I've seen though and I'm not sure what applies to my car (most electrical posts are related to 85 and up ignition problems). So my initial questions:
1) Is the ignition computer in my 84 an EZK? Should I have a relay for it? My manual does not show an ignition relay, but that would be a real nice fix.
2) Can I easily check anything on the fuse panel when this happens again to see if the ignition components are disabled, possibly due to the alarm. First step is to just find something that is not in the right state, but I'm not sure what to check. And I don't really know anything about the alarm (although it MIGHT be an aftermarktet one <sob>)
3) My tach bounces around on it's own, but I'm assuming that's just a separate electrical issue. I'll have to clean contacts on the pod, but I figured I'd mention it in case this tips anyone off.
The wiring diagram for the 84 is just terrible IMO, so if anyone can guide me to at least some initial easy testing before I have to look at that mess I'd appreciate it. Crank sensor and relay(s) sound like a cheap start, but it sounds like the crank sensor is a quick way to get into a big job (because you can't easily remove it I guess).
Thanks
Rock
84 EuroS 5speed
79 Euro 5speed
So I start her up and everything seemed fine. Check a few things, stop and start a few times, but it seems OK. Backed out of the garage and the car just dies. Fuel pump sounded good. Hooked up a timing light and it looked like there was no spark (although the sun was in my face and I didn't have a helper available, but I think I would have seen the light). I checked to make sure the cams were turning (fearing I did something wrong and broke the timing belt). It was fine but it just wouldn't start. Tried to push it back into the garage but I couldn't get it solo, so I put it in 1st and let my new, mis-sized battery do the pushing. Well, as I got inside the car fired up. Seems to run now, but it seems safe to assume it's just waiting for an opportunity to strand me.
So from the searches I did I see some possible causes being a faulty alarm, relay, crank sensor, or computer
as the obvious culprits. I'm a little lost on the terminology I've seen though and I'm not sure what applies to my car (most electrical posts are related to 85 and up ignition problems). So my initial questions:1) Is the ignition computer in my 84 an EZK? Should I have a relay for it? My manual does not show an ignition relay, but that would be a real nice fix.
2) Can I easily check anything on the fuse panel when this happens again to see if the ignition components are disabled, possibly due to the alarm. First step is to just find something that is not in the right state, but I'm not sure what to check. And I don't really know anything about the alarm (although it MIGHT be an aftermarktet one <sob>)
3) My tach bounces around on it's own, but I'm assuming that's just a separate electrical issue. I'll have to clean contacts on the pod, but I figured I'd mention it in case this tips anyone off.
The wiring diagram for the 84 is just terrible IMO, so if anyone can guide me to at least some initial easy testing before I have to look at that mess I'd appreciate it. Crank sensor and relay(s) sound like a cheap start, but it sounds like the crank sensor is a quick way to get into a big job (because you can't easily remove it I guess).
Thanks
Rock
84 EuroS 5speed
79 Euro 5speed
10-13-2007, 05:39 PM
#2
Hi Rock2001, welcome to the fold.
I have two 84 Euros in my house, and this sounds like the same problems that have presented on both of them. On several occasions, on both cars, it turned out to be either the temp sender II or the ignition or fuel pump relay. I carry extra ones in my glove box because they are cheaper than a tow truck.
Find a system that you don't necessarily have to have, that has the same relay number, and swap it in temporarily to determine if this is the problem. Check the workshop manual to determine which systems might be somewhat unnecessary (heat during the summer? defroster? not sure which off the top of my head) and have the same relay numbers, if you have the manuals.
Temp sender IIs just tend to go bad. Porsche ones are really the only way to go here. I've taken my multimeter to local car parts stores that claimed to have the sensor in stock. I tested brand new sensors on the desk in front of the clerk and found them to be bad out of the box. I don't bother trying to get these things from the local supplier anymore, I always get the good stuff from 928intl.com or one of the other big guys.
Another thing you could do is check fuse connections for the fuel pump and ignition, and also check and clean the ground connections throughout the car. This last process can kill any number of electrical gremlins alone.
I have two 84 Euros in my house, and this sounds like the same problems that have presented on both of them. On several occasions, on both cars, it turned out to be either the temp sender II or the ignition or fuel pump relay. I carry extra ones in my glove box because they are cheaper than a tow truck.
Find a system that you don't necessarily have to have, that has the same relay number, and swap it in temporarily to determine if this is the problem. Check the workshop manual to determine which systems might be somewhat unnecessary (heat during the summer? defroster? not sure which off the top of my head) and have the same relay numbers, if you have the manuals.
Temp sender IIs just tend to go bad. Porsche ones are really the only way to go here. I've taken my multimeter to local car parts stores that claimed to have the sensor in stock. I tested brand new sensors on the desk in front of the clerk and found them to be bad out of the box. I don't bother trying to get these things from the local supplier anymore, I always get the good stuff from 928intl.com or one of the other big guys.
Another thing you could do is check fuse connections for the fuel pump and ignition, and also check and clean the ground connections throughout the car. This last process can kill any number of electrical gremlins alone.
10-14-2007, 10:43 PM
#3
Thanks for the info. Although my manual says I don't have these relays, I see in the wiring diagrams that I do indeed have the LH relay and the injection relay. Good thing I checked into this with your help, because I took her to a car show today and of course when I tried to leave she wouldn't start. Swapped in another relay for the LH relay with no luck. I don't seem to have another relay with the same number as the injection relay, so I used my handy jumper. Then she started up. So I think I found the problem (or the first one anyways).
Geeze, most of the relays seems to be flaky. The Euro secondary window regulator relay was bad, and the wiper relay clicks like crazy when it's on. Add in the injection relay now and apparently the headlight relay is clicking randomly when they're on, and even for a 928 this seems extreme. I'll have to order a bunch, but I guess I'll be fortunate if that's the bulk of my electrical issues.
Thanks
Rock
Geeze, most of the relays seems to be flaky. The Euro secondary window regulator relay was bad, and the wiper relay clicks like crazy when it's on. Add in the injection relay now and apparently the headlight relay is clicking randomly when they're on, and even for a 928 this seems extreme. I'll have to order a bunch, but I guess I'll be fortunate if that's the bulk of my electrical issues.
Thanks
Rock
10-14-2007, 11:17 PM
#4
Hi Rock,
Glad to help. If you have that many bad relays, may I further suggest that you disconnect the battery and then check the wiring behind the electrical panel for bad connections, corrosion and bad wires? And clean the grounds while you're in there. Mine were all corroded behind the panel too.
Glad you're getting closer to the problem. Good luck.
Glad to help. If you have that many bad relays, may I further suggest that you disconnect the battery and then check the wiring behind the electrical panel for bad connections, corrosion and bad wires? And clean the grounds while you're in there. Mine were all corroded behind the panel too.
Glad you're getting closer to the problem. Good luck.