stroker cranks
03-10-2002 | 10:16 PM
#16
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From: South Texas (Way South)
I think that anyone who wants a custom crank for their 928, "cheep". They should get in on the group buy of; gbyron (Greg Byron)(Scat Stroker cranks, posted 03-03-2002 01:36). It's not that hard, there are many custom crank makers out there; scat is only one of many!
There are just a few things you will need to know first.
1. Educate one self on the different types of metals used in the manufacturing of crankshafts (there are many) you will need to find one that is best for your application.
2. Read and talk to everyone that knows anything about the subject. Crankshafts, design and manufacturing techniques, of.
3. Heat-treat methods and methodology.
4. Final material hardness that suits your design specification.
5. Hardness testing (Burnell or Rockwell) and the tolerances to be held.
6. Final dimensions and surface roughness specifications.
7. And so on!
If you think for a minute that a crankshaft grinder is going to do this for you, think again! He will sell you whatever cost him the least to produce. Something as simple as the wrong radius, surface finish or heat treat could cost you your entire motor! Do you know what the grinder will say?
"It's not our fault! You didn't spec out the radius (or whatever), so we just did it the way we always do (the cheapest way)."
How do you know what to ask for? Learn the above and more. You get what you pay for 99.99% of the time.
It’s your money and your time. It’s up to you to decide.
My money goes to ones that have proven they have a good product or service.
Ed, That horse your beating is DEAD! Why does it seem that anytime you have a chance to degrade DEVEK you don’t miss a beat? That motor you blow up on the track must be keeping you busy, I haven't seen you post much since. Who’s helping you put it back together again? 928Intl.? You need to do some self-evaluation before you start casting stones.
Jay, don't believe everything you read on the web. Challenge, research and verify for yourself everything that is told you by others before you repeat them. Otherwise it is just simple hearsay.
Kindest regards
Max
There are just a few things you will need to know first.
1. Educate one self on the different types of metals used in the manufacturing of crankshafts (there are many) you will need to find one that is best for your application.
2. Read and talk to everyone that knows anything about the subject. Crankshafts, design and manufacturing techniques, of.
3. Heat-treat methods and methodology.
4. Final material hardness that suits your design specification.
5. Hardness testing (Burnell or Rockwell) and the tolerances to be held.
6. Final dimensions and surface roughness specifications.
7. And so on!
If you think for a minute that a crankshaft grinder is going to do this for you, think again! He will sell you whatever cost him the least to produce. Something as simple as the wrong radius, surface finish or heat treat could cost you your entire motor! Do you know what the grinder will say?
"It's not our fault! You didn't spec out the radius (or whatever), so we just did it the way we always do (the cheapest way)."
How do you know what to ask for? Learn the above and more. You get what you pay for 99.99% of the time.
It’s your money and your time. It’s up to you to decide.
My money goes to ones that have proven they have a good product or service.
Ed, That horse your beating is DEAD! Why does it seem that anytime you have a chance to degrade DEVEK you don’t miss a beat? That motor you blow up on the track must be keeping you busy, I haven't seen you post much since. Who’s helping you put it back together again? 928Intl.? You need to do some self-evaluation before you start casting stones.
Jay, don't believe everything you read on the web. Challenge, research and verify for yourself everything that is told you by others before you repeat them. Otherwise it is just simple hearsay.
Kindest regards
Max
03-10-2002 | 10:36 PM
#17
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From: Houston, Tx
Something I do not understand is about a year ago I contacted my engine builder to see if he could get a Scat stroker crank for my 928. This builder builds a lot of race engines, but not Porsche ones so would not be the best choice for find deals on said parts I would imagine. He has built up many 944 motors though, just not any 928.
He called Scat and while I was on hold got me a price, $3k for the crank, %50 up front needed and no promise on when I could recieve. No promise because they told him they will only make these cranks when they have a order of 6 or more so once 5 or more orders came in, then I could get the crank. They said about once a year a place in California orders a batch of these cranks. So Scat is saying once a year a batch of cranks is ordered by a place in Cali, but people on this thread are saying it has been over a year since Devek ordered cranks and Jim Bailey said it has been over 2 years since 928 Intl got stroker cranks. So, who is this place in Cali buying Scat stroker cranks every year? AND it obviously could not be Devek because I was going to get a crank and Devek owns the design to theirs so I would have been I guess getting the same crank 928 Intl is getting.
Also, yes any crank manufacturer can make a crank. That is something my engine builder brought up, he said for me to just get him a stock crank so he could have a stroker crank made. Even he was quite surprised at the price for the 928 stroker crank and this coming from coming from a person that.
He called Scat and while I was on hold got me a price, $3k for the crank, %50 up front needed and no promise on when I could recieve. No promise because they told him they will only make these cranks when they have a order of 6 or more so once 5 or more orders came in, then I could get the crank. They said about once a year a place in California orders a batch of these cranks. So Scat is saying once a year a batch of cranks is ordered by a place in Cali, but people on this thread are saying it has been over a year since Devek ordered cranks and Jim Bailey said it has been over 2 years since 928 Intl got stroker cranks. So, who is this place in Cali buying Scat stroker cranks every year? AND it obviously could not be Devek because I was going to get a crank and Devek owns the design to theirs so I would have been I guess getting the same crank 928 Intl is getting.
Also, yes any crank manufacturer can make a crank. That is something my engine builder brought up, he said for me to just get him a stock crank so he could have a stroker crank made. Even he was quite surprised at the price for the 928 stroker crank and this coming from coming from a person that.
03-10-2002 | 11:13 PM
#18
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Soooo much secrecy and so little time.
Maybe one just needs to remove the hood.
Max - in as far as the actual metal specs go - one should probably consider Charpy Z notch testing as well as the Rockwell harndess tests.
Just doing my part to keep the tread on the top.
Best Regards to all....
Maybe one just needs to remove the hood.
Max - in as far as the actual metal specs go - one should probably consider Charpy Z notch testing as well as the Rockwell harndess tests.
Just doing my part to keep the tread on the top.
Best Regards to all....
03-11-2002 | 04:49 AM
#19
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From: NorCal928
By and large, this board provides some very educational and insightful threads, IMHO.
Watching this thread progress, I debated whether or not to participate, followed by how to participate. The dynamics and emotion are all over the map, with some derision directed in particular at DEVEK. There's much more to this than meets the eye.
My perspective is that Marc's opening post was part reaction and part clarification (but all factual) to a different thread.
Someone asked about DEVEK stroker testimonials (i.e., where are they; why don't we hear from them?). My name is listed, so I figured I might as well give a "pride of the ride" perspective. What follows is qualitative and anecdotal (as opposed to quantitative and engineering). Some of this was shared in a previous post.
I have an '89 GT with a DEVEK 6.5 stroker. The heads have cleaned up (not polished) ports; stock valves; stock exhaust. This car is truly a daily driver, not a lightened track car that is street legal. It is quiet and stealthy. Plus, it is extraordinarily tractible and easy to drive over the course of my daily commute, which often includes miles of stop'n'go, bumper-to-bumper crawling. I usually get ~17.5mpg combined (trust me, I don't baby the car at all) and have topped 23mpg pure freeway.
As a reference point, other cars I have had behind-the-wheel experience with include:
- 1968 Shelby GT500
- 1970 Boss 302
- 1971 Boss 351
- 1972 Pantera
- 1974 Pantera GTS
- 1984 Porsche 911
- 1986 Porsche 930
- 1986 Ferrari 328GTS
- 1987 Porsche 928S4
- 1990 Porsche 928GT
- 1993 Porsche 928GTS
- 1999 Corvette C5
My '89 GT will flat run and hide from any of those listed above. Period. The engine is much more responsive and revs quicker than any of those and, in conjunction with a torque curve the shape of a brick, pulls far stronger throughout its rev range.
I've had numerous encounters with unsuspecting C5's, C4's, Camaro SS's, Mustang Cobra's/GT's, Boxters. No contest with any of them. Really! I don't EVEN need to mention the plethora of wanna-be rice rockets.
Over the past few months, I've given rides to more than a dozen folks. By the 1-2 shift, with one exception, the across the board unsolicited exclamation has been, "Ohhh shi####!" The exception was from one who knew what to expect. One buddy said, "Go back, I gotta pick up my teeth." Without judicious modulation of the right foot, there is wanton disregard for the rear tires - the 275/40 rears will spin through 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears. With ease.
I've only put ~4K miles on the engine at this point, but I know of other DEVEK stroker breathren out there that have more (much more) than 100K on theirs.
Living in the San Francisco area, my access to DEVEK is much easier than many of you =). My ability to just drop in has provided me with unique insight into their incredible engineering talent in particular and their extraordinary knowledge of the 928 in general. But you guys all know that already.
By the same token, long-time providers Mark Anderson and Dave Roberts should certainly be applauded for the services and products they provide.
Also, newer players like Paul Jager and Mark Robinson are certainly welcome additions.
In fact, anyone willing to devote time and resources to further our Sharks as cause celebre should be applauded and supported.
Hats off to 'em all and best regards to all of you.....
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
Watching this thread progress, I debated whether or not to participate, followed by how to participate. The dynamics and emotion are all over the map, with some derision directed in particular at DEVEK. There's much more to this than meets the eye.
My perspective is that Marc's opening post was part reaction and part clarification (but all factual) to a different thread.
Someone asked about DEVEK stroker testimonials (i.e., where are they; why don't we hear from them?). My name is listed, so I figured I might as well give a "pride of the ride" perspective. What follows is qualitative and anecdotal (as opposed to quantitative and engineering). Some of this was shared in a previous post.
I have an '89 GT with a DEVEK 6.5 stroker. The heads have cleaned up (not polished) ports; stock valves; stock exhaust. This car is truly a daily driver, not a lightened track car that is street legal. It is quiet and stealthy. Plus, it is extraordinarily tractible and easy to drive over the course of my daily commute, which often includes miles of stop'n'go, bumper-to-bumper crawling. I usually get ~17.5mpg combined (trust me, I don't baby the car at all) and have topped 23mpg pure freeway.
As a reference point, other cars I have had behind-the-wheel experience with include:
- 1968 Shelby GT500
- 1970 Boss 302
- 1971 Boss 351
- 1972 Pantera
- 1974 Pantera GTS
- 1984 Porsche 911
- 1986 Porsche 930
- 1986 Ferrari 328GTS
- 1987 Porsche 928S4
- 1990 Porsche 928GT
- 1993 Porsche 928GTS
- 1999 Corvette C5
My '89 GT will flat run and hide from any of those listed above. Period. The engine is much more responsive and revs quicker than any of those and, in conjunction with a torque curve the shape of a brick, pulls far stronger throughout its rev range.
I've had numerous encounters with unsuspecting C5's, C4's, Camaro SS's, Mustang Cobra's/GT's, Boxters. No contest with any of them. Really! I don't EVEN need to mention the plethora of wanna-be rice rockets.
Over the past few months, I've given rides to more than a dozen folks. By the 1-2 shift, with one exception, the across the board unsolicited exclamation has been, "Ohhh shi####!" The exception was from one who knew what to expect. One buddy said, "Go back, I gotta pick up my teeth." Without judicious modulation of the right foot, there is wanton disregard for the rear tires - the 275/40 rears will spin through 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears. With ease.
I've only put ~4K miles on the engine at this point, but I know of other DEVEK stroker breathren out there that have more (much more) than 100K on theirs.
Living in the San Francisco area, my access to DEVEK is much easier than many of you =). My ability to just drop in has provided me with unique insight into their incredible engineering talent in particular and their extraordinary knowledge of the 928 in general. But you guys all know that already.
By the same token, long-time providers Mark Anderson and Dave Roberts should certainly be applauded for the services and products they provide.
Also, newer players like Paul Jager and Mark Robinson are certainly welcome additions.
In fact, anyone willing to devote time and resources to further our Sharks as cause celebre should be applauded and supported.
Hats off to 'em all and best regards to all of you.....
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
03-11-2002 | 05:35 AM
#20
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 296
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From: South Texas (Way South)
Charpy Z?
I am familiar with Charpy V- notch testing as per ASTM E23, ASTM A572, ASTM A 673 / A673M – 95. I don’t recall a Z notch test, it’s been a long time since I worked in the NDT field (10 years). Even though I try to keep up my reading, some things do slip by.
As far as Charpy notch testing in general, I’m not sure if this would do you any go unless you were doing it at the point of origin (foundry).
Maybe you could enlighten me on the Z notch testing and how it would apply. What ASTM manual could I find this in?
Anyway I’m glad we agree that it does take a little more knowledge than the average bear to spec out a good crank!
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Max
I am familiar with Charpy V- notch testing as per ASTM E23, ASTM A572, ASTM A 673 / A673M – 95. I don’t recall a Z notch test, it’s been a long time since I worked in the NDT field (10 years). Even though I try to keep up my reading, some things do slip by.
As far as Charpy notch testing in general, I’m not sure if this would do you any go unless you were doing it at the point of origin (foundry).
Maybe you could enlighten me on the Z notch testing and how it would apply. What ASTM manual could I find this in?
Anyway I’m glad we agree that it does take a little more knowledge than the average bear to spec out a good crank!
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Max
03-11-2002 | 08:03 AM
#21
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From: Hotlanta - NE of the Perimeter
Oops....
I goofed...max is correct in the Charpy 'V' notch testing (another classic case of typing and not re-reading).
Rick-
Thanks for the insightful information. This is what we need more of IMHO. The more first hand info - the better for all of us who want to improve upon our cars. I echo your applauds to thsoe vendors out there who continue to develope more products for our cars. Without their efforts our cars would surely die on the vine - or be held hostage at the delearship.
I goofed...max is correct in the Charpy 'V' notch testing (another classic case of typing and not re-reading).
Rick-
Thanks for the insightful information. This is what we need more of IMHO. The more first hand info - the better for all of us who want to improve upon our cars. I echo your applauds to thsoe vendors out there who continue to develope more products for our cars. Without their efforts our cars would surely die on the vine - or be held hostage at the delearship.
03-11-2002 | 09:32 AM
#22
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From: Herndon, VA
Max:
Every time that horse gets up and starts kicking, I'll be there to set the record straight. I could mention quite a few things about that particular vendor, but I think each of us will have to make our own decisions about it.
Let's just say that the following adage applies: "Fool me once - shame on you, fool me twice - shame on me." So far, I've nothing to be ashamed of. YMMV.
Every time that horse gets up and starts kicking, I'll be there to set the record straight. I could mention quite a few things about that particular vendor, but I think each of us will have to make our own decisions about it.
Let's just say that the following adage applies: "Fool me once - shame on you, fool me twice - shame on me." So far, I've nothing to be ashamed of. YMMV.
03-11-2002 | 02:56 PM
#23
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From: Chicago
RickK,
Do you still have the stock rear gearing in your car? I've talked to a couple of people with a DEVEK stroker motor in their GT, and they switched to the 2.20 rear gearing. Even with big rear tires and limited slip, with the DEVEK stroker motor in there, and the stock 2.73 gearing of the GT, they said that there was way too much torque for 1st gear to really be of much use. It was just massive wheelspin and instantly time to shift, anytime they gave it any sort of decent throttle. Going to the 2.20 gearing helped, but there was still more than enough torque to get wheelspin, even in 3rd gear in some cases.
Hmmm... with the sudden surge of people building stroker motors, maybe it's time to buy some stock in the tire manufacturers.
Do you still have the stock rear gearing in your car? I've talked to a couple of people with a DEVEK stroker motor in their GT, and they switched to the 2.20 rear gearing. Even with big rear tires and limited slip, with the DEVEK stroker motor in there, and the stock 2.73 gearing of the GT, they said that there was way too much torque for 1st gear to really be of much use. It was just massive wheelspin and instantly time to shift, anytime they gave it any sort of decent throttle. Going to the 2.20 gearing helped, but there was still more than enough torque to get wheelspin, even in 3rd gear in some cases.
Hmmm... with the sudden surge of people building stroker motors, maybe it's time to buy some stock in the tire manufacturers.
03-11-2002 | 04:07 PM
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From: NorCal928
Mike,
Yes, car has the stock 2.73 gearset. I figured I'd leave things alone for now. It's just too much fun!
However, you're right - the torque multiplication factor can overwhelm the rear tires. That torque has to be absorbed/expended somewhere along the driveline: clutch/pp, torque tube, tranny, tires. Tires are the least expensive, most easily replaced component.
I've been told that I'd want to switch to the 2.20 gear set because I'd get tired of shifting so much. That hasn't happened.....yet.
Yes, car has the stock 2.73 gearset. I figured I'd leave things alone for now. It's just too much fun!
However, you're right - the torque multiplication factor can overwhelm the rear tires. That torque has to be absorbed/expended somewhere along the driveline: clutch/pp, torque tube, tranny, tires. Tires are the least expensive, most easily replaced component.
I've been told that I'd want to switch to the 2.20 gear set because I'd get tired of shifting so much. That hasn't happened.....yet.
03-11-2002 | 11:16 PM
#25
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Just curious as to how long it took for your motor to get built up Rick.
Also, how closely involved did you get in the build up process.
Besides that - noticed that you've got ~4K miles on it now. Any issues to deal with (ie rings seating, etc.)?
Did you also opt for the larger Intake valves (if you posted already - my apologies)?
An 89 GT in stock form would likely produce ~300 HP at the rw. I presume that you've Dyno the car - results?
TIA-
Also, how closely involved did you get in the build up process.
Besides that - noticed that you've got ~4K miles on it now. Any issues to deal with (ie rings seating, etc.)?
Did you also opt for the larger Intake valves (if you posted already - my apologies)?
An 89 GT in stock form would likely produce ~300 HP at the rw. I presume that you've Dyno the car - results?
TIA-
03-12-2002 | 03:13 AM
#26
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From: NorCal928
Jay,
1. How long: Can't give you a precise answer. My situation included opportunities and decisions about base car, engine configuration, functionality and finances. My over-analytical decision process lengthened the amount of time it took.
2. Build process: Although I've built a couple of motors from the ground up before, I did not materially participate in this build.
3. Issues: None to speak of really. Motor is squeaky clean and correspondingly tight - has not burned a drop of oil. If NOT running Chevron Supreme w/ Techron, there can be some very light pinging (which the knock sensors take care of) under certain conditions (not really an issue). After switching from integrated to external oil cooler, max temp in bumper-to-bumper traffic has been 185; typically runs cooler.
4. Valves: Stock.
5. Dyno: Bear in mind my design goal is to have a nice, quiet, unassuming (well, at least as unassuming as a shark can be) 928 that is tractible and easy to drive in daily real world situations, yet with enough bite to fend off your usual pest, vermin and wanna-be predators. Numbers came out at 385+ rwhp and 440+ rwtq. Way beyond my needs/expectations. Actually, it'd be relatively easy to get more hp/tq. Understand that peak numbers don't tell the whole story either. Also, consider that this is through stock (i.e., quiet/restrictive) exhaust. I may actually have the lowest output stroker. No frills, just thrills. The setup is just amazing.
Like I said in the earlier post, this shark has bitten many unsuspecting foe and has yet to be bitten back.
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
1. How long: Can't give you a precise answer. My situation included opportunities and decisions about base car, engine configuration, functionality and finances. My over-analytical decision process lengthened the amount of time it took.
2. Build process: Although I've built a couple of motors from the ground up before, I did not materially participate in this build.
3. Issues: None to speak of really. Motor is squeaky clean and correspondingly tight - has not burned a drop of oil. If NOT running Chevron Supreme w/ Techron, there can be some very light pinging (which the knock sensors take care of) under certain conditions (not really an issue). After switching from integrated to external oil cooler, max temp in bumper-to-bumper traffic has been 185; typically runs cooler.
4. Valves: Stock.
5. Dyno: Bear in mind my design goal is to have a nice, quiet, unassuming (well, at least as unassuming as a shark can be) 928 that is tractible and easy to drive in daily real world situations, yet with enough bite to fend off your usual pest, vermin and wanna-be predators. Numbers came out at 385+ rwhp and 440+ rwtq. Way beyond my needs/expectations. Actually, it'd be relatively easy to get more hp/tq. Understand that peak numbers don't tell the whole story either. Also, consider that this is through stock (i.e., quiet/restrictive) exhaust. I may actually have the lowest output stroker. No frills, just thrills. The setup is just amazing.
Like I said in the earlier post, this shark has bitten many unsuspecting foe and has yet to be bitten back.
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
03-12-2002 | 04:24 AM
#27
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Rick:
Didn't you say were going to have the car smogged? What happened there? Did you have to put the cats back on? Did you ever get the pinging under control with the cats ON the car?
You will have to give lots of rides to other 928 owners at the "sharks in the park" in May...
Didn't you say were going to have the car smogged? What happened there? Did you have to put the cats back on? Did you ever get the pinging under control with the cats ON the car?
You will have to give lots of rides to other 928 owners at the "sharks in the park" in May...
03-12-2002 | 04:52 AM
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From: NorCal928
Nicole,
Oooops...I blew it
. Thanks for keeping me honest. Totally forgot to mention the hollow cats in previous post. Sorry for the omission.
I don't think running with hollow cats made a difference with regard to pinging. Have not had an opportunity to re-smog test with the hollow cats and/or reinstall functioning cats. On the Round Tuit list though.
Work-related travel will likely take me to Cleveland and San Diego for some meetings in May. When is the Sharks in the Park day? I missed the last one, too
. Maybe I should start charging for rides .
Oooops...I blew it
. Thanks for keeping me honest. Totally forgot to mention the hollow cats in previous post. Sorry for the omission.I don't think running with hollow cats made a difference with regard to pinging. Have not had an opportunity to re-smog test with the hollow cats and/or reinstall functioning cats. On the Round Tuit list though.
Work-related travel will likely take me to Cleveland and San Diego for some meetings in May. When is the Sharks in the Park day? I missed the last one, too
. Maybe I should start charging for rides .
03-12-2002 | 08:07 AM
#29
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Scat has many many many cranks in 1500 plus hp engines than run entire race seasons flawlessly. I know quite a few. Devek may have some differences in the crank they sell. But trust me, Scat doesnt need Devek or anyone else to show them how to make a crank that will be the most solid part of your 928 motor.
03-13-2002 | 04:11 PM
#30
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From: California
The DEVEK stroker cranks are unique. Once the cranks arrive, I will take some pics of each style crank and post them to highlight the differences. At that time, I will give details and the "whys". You can then decide for yourself if all cranks are created equal.
Lets face it, we get smarter everytime we build something. DEVEK has been building stroker engines for over 12 years. We build our own engines and have assisted many others with their buildups and know all the details. We are not just "reselling" others products. Although others sell cranks for 928's, to my knowledge, none of them have ever built a high performance 928 stroker engine in house! We have the knowledge in house and know how to use it!
Our kits and our services reflect this comittment to continuious improvement and "doing it right". We incorporate what we learned into our products and every generation reflects this knowledge. That is our comittment ot excellence.
Where are our customers? Our cranks are in stroker engines all over the world. There are even two in supercharged engines...one being the Yellow racer that is for sale, see our website, one in a red widebody racer in LA area, another 3 in the LA area, another 5 in the SF area, quite afew in the midwest, abunch more in the the southeast, a few in the north east, quite a few outside of the US, and best yet, more in process.
The real question is....are you going to be one of them?
Drive quickly and carry a big stroke
Marc
DEVEK
Lets face it, we get smarter everytime we build something. DEVEK has been building stroker engines for over 12 years. We build our own engines and have assisted many others with their buildups and know all the details. We are not just "reselling" others products. Although others sell cranks for 928's, to my knowledge, none of them have ever built a high performance 928 stroker engine in house! We have the knowledge in house and know how to use it!
Our kits and our services reflect this comittment to continuious improvement and "doing it right". We incorporate what we learned into our products and every generation reflects this knowledge. That is our comittment ot excellence.
Where are our customers? Our cranks are in stroker engines all over the world. There are even two in supercharged engines...one being the Yellow racer that is for sale, see our website, one in a red widebody racer in LA area, another 3 in the LA area, another 5 in the SF area, quite afew in the midwest, abunch more in the the southeast, a few in the north east, quite a few outside of the US, and best yet, more in process.
The real question is....are you going to be one of them?
Drive quickly and carry a big stroke
Marc
DEVEK