MikeN

Well said Old & New.....

Pretty much my point all along, mostly suckers that fall for these cars, and I do think the quote by Merry0911......

"All you 928 owners may want to thank Mr. Willhoit - he actually helps to protect your investment by selling 928's and like Chuck Z said - keeps the goods ones going to people that know the value and will take good care of them."

is a complete joke. Sorry, but just because some sucker can buy one of these cars does not mean he will take any better care of it then someone else. In fact, I have found that these are the worst type of buyers for a nice example. They either spent so much to buy the car they can't afford to keep it in shape, or they have too much money and don't service it at all or have it "dealer serviced".......either way we know what that usually means......dump it later in a worse state.

10% profit? Well let's do the math....

Buy eBay GTS $35,000 With taxes.
Transport $ 1,000
Clean (maybe) $ 200
Fix (never seen any dealer fix anything if he could get away with it) $0
Advertise $ 200 (generous, used same pictures from eBay)
-----------
Sub-Total $36,400
10% $ 3,640
-----------
What he "needs" $40,040

Asking price I believe was $45k........hmmmm, is he really going to come down $5 grand in price right off the bat?? He may take it in the end after one sits on his lot for months......but it appears to me like he is looking to make 20%-30% (depending on car) on each sale. Tell me if I'm wrong here?

Tahoe Shark

We might be talking about different cars, if we are I apologize in advance, but the 94 GTS with 48,000 miles from Wilhoit is here
http://www.willhoitenterprises.com/car63.htm.

His asking price is $39,500 not mid $40,000. Using your own math he is selling the car at under 10% markup. I believe he made a big mistake in his replies via email, there is no argueing that, however, calling people suckers, fool and other derogatory names is inappropriate just because they can afford to buy these cars.

As to you assertion that people who are looking for an excellent example in a 928 do not take care of there cars or don't have knowledge to repair and service them themselves ( who cares anyway) or can't afford to service the car because they spent to much money buying the car is pure bunk!! Where do you think a lot of these "perfect low mileage" cars come from. Chances are it is not from folk who are barely getting by.

By the way, what is wrong with having the car serviced at a "dealer" or specialty shop?

I think this issue has turned from the obviously incorrect response by Michael, and snowballed into blast anyone who want the best car they can afford.

There ... thats my $ .02

Jim bailey - 928 International

Tim well stated , there are very few people who OWN a GTS and quite a number who would LIKE TO OWN one . The whole concept of " market value " really breaks down when there are so few cars and each one really is unique based on color, miles , history and condition . In the end , a car is worth what ever a single individual is willing to pay for it . There are a number of people on this forum who do much of their own work on their cars and in the process have learned that far too often the work performed by "professional " mechanics has been poorly or incorrectly done in the past . Some Porsche dealers have REFUSED to work on older 928s , service writers / salesmen have derided the 928 and suggested that the owner by a 911 . Very few of the technicians at a Porsche dealership were trained on the 928 and the more senior ones to some extent get to choose which jobs they will accept to do ......rarely will they want to work on a 928 . End result often the younger less experienced untrained rookie gets stuck chasing an electrical gremlin in a 928 for the very first time . The independant repair shops are only as good as the training , experience of their technicians and the desire of the owner to treat customers with respect and honesty .

merry0911

FYI
Transport in an enclosed trailer can run $200-$1500 depending on the location of the car.
Clean Up - $350-$550 - our guy is the best i have ever seen - two day wheels off detail process.
Touch up or dye work if needed $150
Fix - Starts with $150 for a 100-Point Check to make sure everything is in proper working order - if there is something that needs repaired - anywhere from $100-$1,500 - depends on the part.
Tires - $800-$1000 if needed
Then we have interest on our money.
We go to great lengths to make sure the car is as nice as it can be.
Advertising is one of many expenses monthly - not charged to the cars.
We don't just advertise our cars on ebay - we spend an average of $5,000 -$6,000 Monthly - DuPont, Hemmings, Autoweek, Auto Trader, Cars.com, The Car Experience, etc...
We DO try to make 10% - that is not unreasonable - and yes sometimes we make more - but most of the time we take less. We deliver very nice cars and our customers will attest to that - read the references on my website. We stand behind our cars - I won't say that we have always made every customer happy - there have been very few occasions where we missed something - but we always try to make it right.
I am in this business - i know what the numbers are and i am not making them up or mis representing them - I am merely trying to get you guys to see the other side of the coin.
I am not asking you to buy a car from me and i am not trying to degrade you or what you do - please extend me that same courtesy.
Merry Carmichael

Chuck Z

Well said Tim;

Seems pretty simple to me:

The market IS whatever a buyer is willing to pay!

I take issue with the comment that buyers of these expensive 928s do not/will not take care of them. I think that would be a truer statement if it were directed at the original owners of 928s. I know that was the case with my GTS.

Just because somone buys a 928 from someone who DOESN'T necessarily know what the car might be worth and resells it for more doesn't mean the reseller(dealer) screwed the buyer or that the buyer is a sucker. There are not many cars to pick from. It just means the reseller(dealer) IS more resourceful then the buyer! I see cars all the time that if I were a dealer I would buy because I know I could sell it and make money.

Do I like to pay a lot for cars, no! Do I like the hunt and do I like finding the "deal"? Hell yes, thats how I found my GTS! That is the only way I will buy a car, especailly 928s. You ALL have the same opportunity, its all about timing.

Jim bailey - 928 International

Merry , you also could have pointed out the risks you are taking everytime you buy a car . I have had dealers call me after a "good" car breaks a timing belt , eats a brain , lunches a transmission , or a thrust bearing seizes ............ that is all part of your business" expenses" because it will happen . One dealer had a very nice 928 nearly TOTALLED on a customer test drive ...that was ugly !! Sure insurance helped "fix" the car but it was no longer such a nice car . Take care , thanks for helping maintain the resale value of these cars and being able to see value where others may overlook it .

MikeN

Tim -

The car I was talking about is not the one you posted, it was several months back. Car (low mileage GTS, A/T) sold on ebay for low $30K.
Exact car/pictures from Ebay show up on Willhoits site days after the auction with a mid $40's asking price.

A lot of perfect low mileage cars are ones that sit around in storage for years and years until the seller realizes that collecting a 928 is kind of a
loosing battle, in the mean time that owner doens't really have to do a lot to it as it just sits. No mileage, no maintenance. I have seen MUCH of this.
In fact my GT kinda fits in that catagory. Bought with barely 22k miles on it,
Pristine shape as far as body/paint/interior goes, but timing belt was original (yikes), all fluids had not been changed out on a timely basis/etc.
Guy who owned it was very "well off", but again......one of the "no mileage, no maintenance" crowd. Lucky I got it when I did. It was a car Willhoit was bidding on and had told the buyer it was not worth much and was low balling him,.........but of course he took offense when someone did it to him.

My point is that every car that Willhoit has can be tracked back to an Ebay auction, dealer trade, etc. His cars are nothing that a person with some diligence could find on his own. Just saying his cars are better by default because they are priced high is crap.......they are average cars that anyone can get to......and pay a lot less.

As far as dealer service goes......all of us can speak on their own......but the general consensus is that todays Porsche dealer could care less about a 928......most don't even want to see one.......and I'm talking about good dealers that give excellent service to new 911s and Boxsters.

I said it and stand behind it. If you want a primo 928......do a little research, wait a little time, and chances are you will find what you are looking for at a resonable price, or be a sucker and go to one of these
dealers that charge an inflated price and buy it right then and there,
but don't stand around being a crybaby when you go to sell it down the road and find that you were stupid and that 928s "depreciate too fast".

Chuck Z

Valid point Mike:

<<As far as dealer service goes......all of us can speak on their own......but the general consensus is that todays Porsche dealer could care less about a 928......most don't even want to see one.......and I'm talking about good dealers that give excellent service to new 911s and Boxsters>>

Most of the techs currently working these days weren't even born when the 928 was introduced let alone working as a Porsche tech when it was discontinued. They do not know about them and do not care!

Tahoe Shark

Mike N

I was replying specifically to "928ntslow" who brought back this thread and inquired about a 94 GTS at Wilhoit, not a 93 GTS 6 months ago.
As far a where a dealer gets his cars I really can't comment on that but I do wish I knew where. If he is getting them all on Ebay and others are not, then either he has the money to buy them or he outbids others.

I still disagree with your assertion that people who buy a car from or have cars serviced by dealers or independents are suckers. Perhaps your experiences are different than mine. Sure there are incompetent people in every line of work, there are people that will try to take advantage of you in every industry there are also some very good ones as attested to by the 928 owners on this board. If you feel the car price or service it not fair, walk or run away. However if you find just the right car, in pristine condition, you fall in love with it and it is a thousand or two over "market value" buy it. If you don't, you will spend the next year looking for and probably not finding a better one. I have kicked myself in the A$$ so many times for not getting the item I truely want when it was available only to wait for a better "deal" which just never seems to as good as the one I passed on earlier.

So I guess that I fall into the category of "Sucker". No I didn't buy from a dealer, but I did pay a couple of thousand more than some other 5sp GTS's. My car is perfect (in my eyes), and every day I drive it or look at it I am glad I bought it. No troubles, no problems and I don't have to fix a thing.

I don't understand this, perhaps it's not directed at me. I'm very happy with my car and I know it will depreciate in value. If this is directed at me, am I now "Stupid" as well as a "Sucker"


I'm trying to see your point, but we may have to agree to disagree.

Later

Flott Leben

I'm not drawing any conslusions from this, but . . . Why are the pictures of the '93 GTS and the '94 GTS on the Willhoit site IDENTICAL?!?! Which car are we looking at here?

928ntslow

Tim, now what was it again that you were actually directing at me? I can't quite see which of my posts lead to your last comment.

I DID say we all have the right to play the game we choose. It was also mentioned by others, that a "thing" of value is what the owner or buyer is placing on it. I also mentioned in my first post that in some other world, this dealer is a good thing.

I haven't responded since, because everyone else had said it all, aside from taking the topic in a different direction. My point was a personal one that I wanted to share. This was between me and the Willhoit guy. I just didn't think his response was appropriate, regardless of how you interperet my intitial inquirery. It just showed his sense of professionalism...or lack of.

Explaining to me what a dealers side of the story is, is no concern of mine, nor has it ever been. I just don't care. I WILL say, that it is OK to make money....I do it everyday. I will ALSO say, it is OK to save money when ever you can. Spending is OK too! This is where personal value shows up.

MikeN

Hey Tim -

Nothing really directed at you at all.......just some good robust conversation.

No, I did not say that people that have their car serviced by a dealer or a good shop are suckers or stupid. What I did say is that buying a vastly overpriced car from one of these "primo" dealers is in my opinion being "taken", making the point that there is nothing special about their cars......they are sold on Ebay, traded in, etc. They just don't magically
appear and are a step above anything else......just normal cars that the
average person can come across without being gouged by a middle man.

If someone has money to waste......fine, waste it.......glad it's not mine.

As far as paying a premium for a fine example.......I am a major proponant for this, and I did pay a couple $K more for my GT then what many others would have paid, but I would not pay $5k more for it.......which is what Willhoit would have asked for it......at least. Sure enough other low mileage, fine examples have come along after I bought mine.

My GT has really been flawless also, just some simple up front maintenance and it was good to go. I perform most of the work myself, but have a very
fine independant shop that has one of the first trained and certified 928 mechanics left working at it. Whenever my past two 928s needed any
alignment work, A/C recharging, etc. it was always a money no object, fix it right attitude.......I do not band-aid anything........and I'm not a "well-off"
guy.....but make sure I have plenty of money for my 928 when it/if it needs it. I would bet that most "well-off" individuals don't go through the trouble of finding just such a mechanic or doing the work themselves exactly as the manual states. Most would rather think that dropping it off at the dealer is the right thing to do, or the most expensive shop is the best.
Oh how wrong they can be.

Tahoe Shark

928ntslow

My post was not directed at you, just using your original post for reference. I always have agreed that Michaels response was inappropriate.

MikeN



Put that way, I don't disagree with what you say. I just reacted to the catagorizing of buyers that perhaps are not as sophisticated as others and prefer to have someone else do the leg work of finding the right car. In reading your post. We appear to be more similar than I originally would have guessed. It seems that we treat our cars the same (no bailing wire and chewing gum fixes). We seem to have done about the same thing when we selected our cars also!! I just love it when great minds can finally meet in a discussion.

How about a big group hug???

MikeN

Tim -

I'm there with ya buddy.........a big 928 squeeze......