1993 GTS
11-05-2003, 04:45 PM
#31
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Cleaning them?.....maybe. Fixing them.......no way. Charging $10K over what he bought it for........yep.
I remember one GTS he was selling not too long ago.........he used the SAME exact pictures that were used when the car was on Ebay the week before. Asking price was $10K higher though. I don't think the car was even in his posession yet and he was already selling it.......there is a fine line between making a little honest money and being a snake......
I remember one GTS he was selling not too long ago.........he used the SAME exact pictures that were used when the car was on Ebay the week before. Asking price was $10K higher though. I don't think the car was even in his posession yet and he was already selling it.......there is a fine line between making a little honest money and being a snake......
11-05-2003, 04:53 PM
#32
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The market on 928s is whatever a buyer is willing to pay. The fact the Michael Willhoit sells more 928s than probably any dealer in the US means to me, he knows what he is doing.
Should he have responded in the manner in which he did, probably not. By now most should know that if he has a 928 for sale that you want, you are going to have to pay all the money for it. The up side to that is, you're probably getting a pretty nice car.
If you're looking to buy a 928GT or GTS, his prices are to high. If you're looking to sell, his prices are to low. Honestly, I hope the values stay up. There will be more nice cars available long in to the future and fewer will fall into the hands of owners who can't/won't take care of them.
Would I buy a car from Willhoit? Probably. Would I pay his price? Probably not because there are cars out there that even he doesn't know about. I am pretty resourceful and would have no problem finding the right car.
He's in the business of buying and selling cars, you can't fault him from being successful.
Should he have responded in the manner in which he did, probably not. By now most should know that if he has a 928 for sale that you want, you are going to have to pay all the money for it. The up side to that is, you're probably getting a pretty nice car.
If you're looking to buy a 928GT or GTS, his prices are to high. If you're looking to sell, his prices are to low. Honestly, I hope the values stay up. There will be more nice cars available long in to the future and fewer will fall into the hands of owners who can't/won't take care of them.
Would I buy a car from Willhoit? Probably. Would I pay his price? Probably not because there are cars out there that even he doesn't know about. I am pretty resourceful and would have no problem finding the right car.
He's in the business of buying and selling cars, you can't fault him from being successful.
11-05-2003, 05:00 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
By 928ntslow:
Hi, in reference to your GTS, I am interested, but must be honest with you. It will be tough to get what ever you are asking for this MY car. If it were a 5 spd, then it is justifiable. I do not know what your knowledge of the 928 market is or if you are involved in the 928 community. Unfortunately, 928 prices have plumeted over the years and most unfortunately, the GTS's are following suit.
On the average, a mid to excellent range GTS is in the mid $20K's, it is not uncommon to see them hovering around $20K.
If you were interested in selling very near the $25K mark, I will pursue this transaction with you.
Hi, in reference to your GTS, I am interested, but must be honest with you. It will be tough to get what ever you are asking for this MY car. If it were a 5 spd, then it is justifiable. I do not know what your knowledge of the 928 market is or if you are involved in the 928 community. Unfortunately, 928 prices have plumeted over the years and most unfortunately, the GTS's are following suit.
On the average, a mid to excellent range GTS is in the mid $20K's, it is not uncommon to see them hovering around $20K.
If you were interested in selling very near the $25K mark, I will pursue this transaction with you.
Then I realized it was you who wrote the misinformation! I do not understand why you are upset with his response since it was you who was attempting to be deceitful.
I think he went extremely easy on you even though you deserved worse.
11-05-2003, 05:19 PM
#34
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No problem with this guy making money or keeping values up, but just the idea that he thinks we're all morons and don't know what he's doing or what the market is gets me a little miffed. I guess to the un-informed though he's a blessing.
11-05-2003, 05:45 PM
#35
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Hello Everyone,
I read these post's daily - i get alot of laughs and also learn alot about how you Porsche guys and gals think. I have sold Porsche's for the last 8 years and i consider myself very up on todays Porsche Market and i am very proud of the job i do and how i represent a car. I read your comments about car dealers and i must say - i have never seen so much slander in my life. Alot of you are passing judgement on people you don't know - have never even spoken to - and basing your comments on one side of a two sided situation. There are bad Dealers out there - but we are not all that way. Michael Willhoit happens to share the building here with Premier Sportscars - Two separate Dealers that share the expenses of one building (I know that has been a controversy in the posts before) we are in Springfield, MO. I sell cars for both Dealers - by the way Michael is the owner of Willhoit Enterprises Not a Salesman. He has also bought and sold Porsche's nationwide for 29 years. And yes he makes a profit on the cars that he sells - last time i checked you have to do that to keep a business going. One thing you might not consider is there is a lot of expense in getting a car ready to sell. You have freight, advertising, detail expenses (he delivers the cleanest cars out there), interest, etc.... After expenses - Willhoit tries to make 10% on his investment - some times he makes a little more but most of the time he takes a little less to make a deal. The people he delivers cars to - always call and say they love the car and it is so much more than they expected. Alot of Mr. Willhoit's business is repeat customers because - they have learned the lesson - in a Porsche you get what you pay for and they know Willhoit delivers a good car.
What do you guys do for a living? Do you make money at what you do - I hope so. Do you take offense when someone tries to tell you how to do YOUR job - (something you have done for a long time and are good at)?
Michael, was hasty in his negitive response to that email - but he was made a very low ball offer on a very nice car that will bring close to what he is asking - and he knows what the car will bring. Porsche owners own cars they are not dealers and do not buy and sell them every day - i think buying and selling Porsche's for 29 years - makes Mr. Willhoit somewhat of an expert - he has to being doing something right or he would not have stayed in business this long.
I just don't understand passing judgement on a situation you have little or no knowledge on - maybe its just me but i was taught to look at every angle before drawing my conclusion.
All you 928 owners may want to thank Mr. Willhoit - he actually helps to protect your investment by selling 928's and like Chuck Z said - keeps the goods ones going to people that know the value and will take good care of them.
You know what they say - opinions are like @$$%&!($ and everyone has one.
I read these post's daily - i get alot of laughs and also learn alot about how you Porsche guys and gals think. I have sold Porsche's for the last 8 years and i consider myself very up on todays Porsche Market and i am very proud of the job i do and how i represent a car. I read your comments about car dealers and i must say - i have never seen so much slander in my life. Alot of you are passing judgement on people you don't know - have never even spoken to - and basing your comments on one side of a two sided situation. There are bad Dealers out there - but we are not all that way. Michael Willhoit happens to share the building here with Premier Sportscars - Two separate Dealers that share the expenses of one building (I know that has been a controversy in the posts before) we are in Springfield, MO. I sell cars for both Dealers - by the way Michael is the owner of Willhoit Enterprises Not a Salesman. He has also bought and sold Porsche's nationwide for 29 years. And yes he makes a profit on the cars that he sells - last time i checked you have to do that to keep a business going. One thing you might not consider is there is a lot of expense in getting a car ready to sell. You have freight, advertising, detail expenses (he delivers the cleanest cars out there), interest, etc.... After expenses - Willhoit tries to make 10% on his investment - some times he makes a little more but most of the time he takes a little less to make a deal. The people he delivers cars to - always call and say they love the car and it is so much more than they expected. Alot of Mr. Willhoit's business is repeat customers because - they have learned the lesson - in a Porsche you get what you pay for and they know Willhoit delivers a good car.
What do you guys do for a living? Do you make money at what you do - I hope so. Do you take offense when someone tries to tell you how to do YOUR job - (something you have done for a long time and are good at)?
Michael, was hasty in his negitive response to that email - but he was made a very low ball offer on a very nice car that will bring close to what he is asking - and he knows what the car will bring. Porsche owners own cars they are not dealers and do not buy and sell them every day - i think buying and selling Porsche's for 29 years - makes Mr. Willhoit somewhat of an expert - he has to being doing something right or he would not have stayed in business this long.
I just don't understand passing judgement on a situation you have little or no knowledge on - maybe its just me but i was taught to look at every angle before drawing my conclusion.
All you 928 owners may want to thank Mr. Willhoit - he actually helps to protect your investment by selling 928's and like Chuck Z said - keeps the goods ones going to people that know the value and will take good care of them.
You know what they say - opinions are like @$$%&!($ and everyone has one.
11-05-2003, 05:47 PM
#36
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When somebody is doing something wrong and gets called on it they will often get very defensive because they fell gulty. They typically don't like and will take it out on those that noticed.
Seems to me that Mr Willhoit was quite defensive in his post.
I agree that the orginal post could be taken with offence even if it was not intended. I do fully believe that the response from Mr Willhoit is entirely uncalled for. As a dealer or just about any retailer you need give the benefit of the doubt to potential customers and ALWAYS respong in very cordial and professional manner. Even if you are pissed off as hell and the custome was wrong like and idiot, you still respond cordially and with professionalism.
BTW...
Merry0911's post just before mine was and example of cordial and professional response. You may care to disagree with what was said, but it was said in a professional manner.
Seems to me that Mr Willhoit was quite defensive in his post.
I agree that the orginal post could be taken with offence even if it was not intended. I do fully believe that the response from Mr Willhoit is entirely uncalled for. As a dealer or just about any retailer you need give the benefit of the doubt to potential customers and ALWAYS respong in very cordial and professional manner. Even if you are pissed off as hell and the custome was wrong like and idiot, you still respond cordially and with professionalism.
BTW...
Merry0911's post just before mine was and example of cordial and professional response. You may care to disagree with what was said, but it was said in a professional manner.
11-05-2003, 06:16 PM
#37
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allright, 1 more post then I'm getting out of this one.
It really baffles me. Maybe I just dont see it.
Aside from being a jerk to someone in an email, what has he done wrong?
I mean I understand the frustration of seeing the price go up on these cars, but he doesn't appear to be doing anything different from any other car dealer!
I say praise him for specializing in 928's and keeping the car alive, and just be aware that he might not be the nicest person on the planet.
Hell, if his prices are THAT much higher than they should be, theyll have to come down eventually. then someone can reap the rewards of his effort in cleaning the car and getting it detailed!
I hope some of you realize that tonight some people who read this are going to go home and talk to their friends and say " some jerk was saying this about a dealer"... you see, you think he is unfair, and they think you are unfair, and someone will undoubtedly think I am unfair.
I guess we're all jerks in the end!
It really baffles me. Maybe I just dont see it.
Aside from being a jerk to someone in an email, what has he done wrong?
I mean I understand the frustration of seeing the price go up on these cars, but he doesn't appear to be doing anything different from any other car dealer!
I say praise him for specializing in 928's and keeping the car alive, and just be aware that he might not be the nicest person on the planet.
Hell, if his prices are THAT much higher than they should be, theyll have to come down eventually. then someone can reap the rewards of his effort in cleaning the car and getting it detailed!
I hope some of you realize that tonight some people who read this are going to go home and talk to their friends and say " some jerk was saying this about a dealer"... you see, you think he is unfair, and they think you are unfair, and someone will undoubtedly think I am unfair.
I guess we're all jerks in the end!
11-05-2003, 06:16 PM
#38
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OK merry0911, some good points......
But what would YOU think of a dealer/seller that sells a car photographed with a blurred out dealer sign in the background or who uses the same exact pictures as the car was sold on Ebay with to advertise???......I guess there was a large "expense" in that. I HAVE talked to Michael many times and come away laughing each......not a bad guy, but definitely just in it for the deal. I remember when someone on this list directly asked him if the car he had for sale was the same one as on Ebay the week before........his one line response was "could be". I guess you could say there is a sucker born every minute......and that's what he caters to.......I'm not a sucker and neither are most people on this list.
But what would YOU think of a dealer/seller that sells a car photographed with a blurred out dealer sign in the background or who uses the same exact pictures as the car was sold on Ebay with to advertise???......I guess there was a large "expense" in that. I HAVE talked to Michael many times and come away laughing each......not a bad guy, but definitely just in it for the deal. I remember when someone on this list directly asked him if the car he had for sale was the same one as on Ebay the week before........his one line response was "could be". I guess you could say there is a sucker born every minute......and that's what he caters to.......I'm not a sucker and neither are most people on this list.
11-05-2003, 06:34 PM
#39
Race Director
Originally posted by MikeN
...but definitely just in it for the deal. ...
...but definitely just in it for the deal. ...
He does have expenses to cover and profit to be made. I really have no idea if his mark-up covers these costs and resonable profit. I do know that if you think his prices are too high don't buy from him.
A couple years ago my parents picked-up a silver 91 928 S4 (auto of course) with 46k. Paid 22k for it from the local Porsche dealer. They were happy as they got a nice car. They we looking for a 968 Couple Tiptronic, and found the 928 instead. A little research showed it was not the cheapest car around, but seem ok considering the excellent condition and that it was from the Porsche dealer. (You have to know that you will rarely get the best price from a dealer!)
Where they screwed?
11-05-2003, 06:43 PM
#40
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I just discovered the antidote to high 928 prices!
Excellence Magazine
Bruce Anderson, where do you get those numbers? Find me a nice 1995 928 GTS for that kind of money and I'm all over it!
Excellence Magazine
Bruce Anderson, where do you get those numbers? Find me a nice 1995 928 GTS for that kind of money and I'm all over it!
11-05-2003, 08:34 PM
#41
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Well, I do think his comments were a bit harsh and condescending.
If I really *were* inquiring about one of his cars, and he acted like my assesment
of his pricing, makes me a cheap loser, and not worthy of his time, then I would
not do business with him. I mean, he pretty much implies that if you are a true
Porsche enthusiast, you should simply buy the best, and not care about the
cost. And if you compare prices, you should not even bother talking to him...
But I also do see the point, from a car dealer's perspective.
If any of you guys decided to switch careers, and be a 928 dealer,
what would you do? I would search E-bay for those cheap 928s,
buy them, fix the basic problems myself, clean up the cosmetics,
and try to resell the car to someone who does not know the price
of maintainance, and just thinks it is a beautiful, fast, wonderful car...
I would do exactly what he is doing. I would just not treat people like
second class citizens, just because they think my prices are too high.
I would just tell them matter-of-factly, that I am a car dealer, who is
interested in selling the car to someone who wants to pay top dollar
for a really nice car. If they want a deal, they should look for
the deals themselves...
If I really *were* inquiring about one of his cars, and he acted like my assesment
of his pricing, makes me a cheap loser, and not worthy of his time, then I would
not do business with him. I mean, he pretty much implies that if you are a true
Porsche enthusiast, you should simply buy the best, and not care about the
cost. And if you compare prices, you should not even bother talking to him...
But I also do see the point, from a car dealer's perspective.
If any of you guys decided to switch careers, and be a 928 dealer,
what would you do? I would search E-bay for those cheap 928s,
buy them, fix the basic problems myself, clean up the cosmetics,
and try to resell the car to someone who does not know the price
of maintainance, and just thinks it is a beautiful, fast, wonderful car...
I would do exactly what he is doing. I would just not treat people like
second class citizens, just because they think my prices are too high.
I would just tell them matter-of-factly, that I am a car dealer, who is
interested in selling the car to someone who wants to pay top dollar
for a really nice car. If they want a deal, they should look for
the deals themselves...
Last edited by bcdavis; 11-05-2003 at 08:49 PM.
11-05-2003, 09:47 PM
#42
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Well, I didn't expect this kind of excitement over this, but it certainly has gotten some good points in both directions.
First, I would like to clarify something very simple...
-saw an ad for a car that appealed to me
-saw no bids for days
-concluded price was too high...for anyone
-noticed "0" feedback
-know of 3 local GTS's gotten for under $30K
-emailed seller to cut a deal
-low balled yes, offensive certainly not
I prefaced the part of the market value in stating I do not know what his knowledge is (I didn't know who he was. nor did I care) in trying to create a "neutral zone"..not dictating, just mentioning. As a buyer, I have a right to offer whatever I wish and use whatever tactics I prefer. I felt (and still feel) the offer was a very reasonable place to start.
The seller has every right to play the same game for his team. THis is called "Dealing".
You can psycho-analyze all you like, but this is no different than buying a house. You find your lowest comp rates and work from there. Certainly no lies, as someone rashly implied.
Never the less, the response was hardly called for and certain statements made in the responses were absolutely ridiculous.
I posted this for awareness...just sharing.
Some folks tend to get too emotionally attached to these things..on both sides of the desk.
First lesson in buying anything, do not become emotionally attached, it's just a "thing".
Flame away!
11-06-2003, 01:08 PM
#43
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Hi MikeN - i wanted to respond to your pondering of the photos in front of Premier Sportscars Building. I have seen this before on posts. Premier Sportscars owns the building that He and Willhoit share - so Premiers big sign is on the front of the building - Willhoits sign is smaller and in the Window. Premier and Willhoit have the photos of their cars taken in front of the building - this lets buyers know that we actually own the cars we are selling and have them in our warehouse - we are not brokers. Willhoit has the Premier sign blurred out because he is not in the business to advertise for Premier Sportscars - he has his own cars and does not want to confuse buyers. Now - there are some cars that Willhoit and Premier partner up on so they both advertise the same car - they can also sell each others inventory. No big deal and nothing strange going on - just two separate dealers that share one building.
Both Dealers offer very nice cars - they are one of the few dealers around that will arrange delivery of a car on a refundable deposit - if the car is found not as represented at time of delivery the deposit is refunded - less shipping one way - which i think is very fair. We also welcome PPI's. We go to great lengths to make sure we have the right cars for our Inventory. We are very picky and turn down many cars that are not the caliber that we stock.
I will continue watching the posts - i have learned alot here and enjoy most of your comments and i also try to help when i can.
Take care all,
Merry Carmichael
Both Dealers offer very nice cars - they are one of the few dealers around that will arrange delivery of a car on a refundable deposit - if the car is found not as represented at time of delivery the deposit is refunded - less shipping one way - which i think is very fair. We also welcome PPI's. We go to great lengths to make sure we have the right cars for our Inventory. We are very picky and turn down many cars that are not the caliber that we stock.
I will continue watching the posts - i have learned alot here and enjoy most of your comments and i also try to help when i can.
Take care all,
Merry Carmichael
11-07-2003, 03:45 AM
#44
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Merry,
If Premier and Willhoit have such an intimate relationship, then the concept that "he is not in the business to advertise for Premier Sportscars" doesn't really fly.
To boot, they are actually separate, except sometimes when they sell the same car... or each others inventory... you are really backpedaling there... fuzzy logic to legitimize your angle... which is to sell cars of course.
There is really no need to defend these actions to the 928 community. You folks are pretty slick and make your livings on uninformed people who have more money than brains. Oh well… We here who ruminate on this would never be a significant portion of your business anyway.
…and please don’t mistake us for the ilks of your customers, suggesting that his target is a 10% profit!!!
If Premier and Willhoit have such an intimate relationship, then the concept that "he is not in the business to advertise for Premier Sportscars" doesn't really fly.
To boot, they are actually separate, except sometimes when they sell the same car... or each others inventory... you are really backpedaling there... fuzzy logic to legitimize your angle... which is to sell cars of course.
There is really no need to defend these actions to the 928 community. You folks are pretty slick and make your livings on uninformed people who have more money than brains. Oh well… We here who ruminate on this would never be a significant portion of your business anyway.
…and please don’t mistake us for the ilks of your customers, suggesting that his target is a 10% profit!!!
11-07-2003, 10:58 AM
#45
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Originally posted by merry0911
You know what they say - opinions are like @$$%&!($ and everyone has one.
You know what they say - opinions are like @$$%&!($ and everyone has one.
FWIW - I see alot of Wilhoit & Premier ads (Autoweek, Dupont Registry, etc.) for cars and they do look quite nice. Lots of low mileage vehicles with nice options...drool city. BUT, the prices are always quite inflated. That's OK if they are reasonable negotiators.