I have to say the guys I buy this product from are really helpful, I am this tiny customer, my order for the H pipe in 3" inco only came to around 200 USD. Now often do you ring someone and they say why do you want to do it that way. I can have a look around and see if I have something for your application that can save you a lot of money. When I ordered the O2 bungs I said I didn't want to spend around $90 USD for the inconel ones. Phil said, that would be a waste of money, we have them in 321 for half that. My headers use 321 flanges also.

So it was very nice to deal with guys that are very knowledgeable, gave me plenty of advice and even were concerned that I shouldn't have to pay the VAT. What we also decided was that the rear part of the exhaust should be done in 321 0.7 mm thickness. We discussed Ti and that is half the price of the inco but it doesn't have the properties of heat resistance, not that important for the rear system but you can't weld anything but Ti to Ti. So the brackets and mufflers all need to be Ti.

That sounded like a right royal pain in the butt. So that is how the decision to go the 321 route was made. All the bends will also be 0.7 mm thick, you can't buy that in Australia. It is quite reasonably priced, to give you an idea, approx 25 pounds for a 3" bend and 45 pounds a metre length in 3".

The weight savings I have been chasing now looks like a reality, the goal weight for the whole exhaust including the headers is 50 pounds. Given it is also made from a material that could out last the car, so despite its lightweight is not some flimsy system. The guys in the UK certainly have access to some great stuff that
is top notch. Oh yes I got my wife from the UK too
Greg

 

Some thoughts;

My brain is spinning trying to keep your project(s) in order. I have been reading your threads for many years now with interest. Because you have been blazing a trail I might want to follow in some form. The best possible NA S2 based engine that would still appear stock from the outside but have the best internals and power.

But it often seems you take 2 steps forward and 1 back. You already built some headers years ago that were pure ART. But now are doing these. 1 of your cars had F50 brakes then maybe changed to pure brembo's ? Many different intake approaches.

Greg, 1st - I hope you get to drive and enjoy this car and Would it be possible for you to make a master thread on the 1 car that you hope to complete that will have all the best stuff.

The master thread might start off with the base car and then a list of the upgrades that you want and then the step by step work you did to get there, engine internals, flow info, F50 brake installation, headers, suspension bits..................

 

By TV

TV I can understand trying to keep this all in order, sometimes I am that way also. Yes I have made some mistakes, basically most of the mistakes are through a lack of knowledge and funds. We were doing a big house project here and that sapped the funds side along with a serious car accident. Rehab and life just slowing me down too. New baby who takes up lots of time.
Lots of people have that so it is no excuse just a reason. Also the work has taken on considerable detail.

The biggest mistake I made was building two perhaps 3 engines at once with limited funds. I also lost a squirter block which I haven't been able to repurchase. However to be quite honest I don't regret too much of it. I will eventually sell the parts I won't use, I suspect when I get the next engine up and running and people can see what the 2V engine can do.

However what I do know is that if I had the money and the time and put this all together say 4 years ago the result would not be as good as it will be. The research has been quite incredible. In the end I found out the more I knew the more I didn't know. If you had a look at the port development work for example, those ports have probably cost $2K plus a heap of my time.

I suppose a little knowledge can be dangerous, however given I have been around the block a couple of times I used that knowledge plus the fact that I couldn't push on to keep asking questions. With some of the helpers I eventually exhausted their limits of knowledge and then I bought lots of SAE papers and various programs and met up with the old boss of the head shop where we do the work. He took an interest and also a famous figure from the US who asked not to be named contributed also. So when progress was still being made I decided to keep pushing the envelope.

As I have mentioned before I would have like to partner the research with other knowledgeable parties that have some funds to get this work up and running quicker. Sharing the manufacturing costs. I always knew it would be a struggle for me. For example the 4V motor most likely will never be built. That is a shame because the heads for that motor in current state and I know there is a bit more in them yet are good for 800+ hp.

When I decided that I didn't realistically think that that engine would go ahead and I didn't want to put that engine into my early car, I thought I would continue the development of the 2V head to get over 700 hp from it as that would be a good enough for all this effort.

As for the rest of the project, I suppose that is me being through. The aero project was not taken on for fun or because I was bored. If you read the thread with the nitrous S2 and the top speed attempt. If one accepts the claims made the car does need work to be able to travel at this high speed. One of my skills is design, mainly architectural housing, furniture etc, I do have a pretty keen eye for what looks right and what doesn't. So I have tried to develop that package in a sympathetic manner.

The reason it needs to be done now and not later is that the dry sump and other cooling needs to be intergrated into the changes. So the job just keeps getting bigger and bigger. It seems to have a life of its own. Don't worry we will get there and it will speed up soon I hope. As to making a master thread, sure, I thought I will probably do a website. Also the plan is to do a book and video. In which I will detail most of the key details of the major components. Give clearances and brands used etc. It wont be a cheap book nor expensive either but compared to the cost of doing your own R&D you'll blow that money in an hour.

Greg

 

Great picture

I am very pleased that you are doing the 2V. 700 is a bit much, I'll settle for 500. A master thread would be good even if it is just briefly outlining the specs and maybe links to the already existing individual component threads. Funny you mention it, I am on the housing adventure now and have done some furniture. Hopefully your progress will stay on track.

 

O.K got my hands on the inconel pipe that is going to be used in the H pipe construction.



I thought I would weigh it for purposes of weight difference to standard stainless pipe. As I have mentioned that the inconel finishes at the H pipe and 321 stainless used there after.

The factor that is applied to inconel in terms of weight is 1.055, so inconel is heavier than the 300 series stainless steel. It was just easier to continue with inconel from the headers. If anybody was wondering the Ti would be lighter again, the factor is 0.552 or 0.56 lbs or 840 grams per metre.

So the lightweight stainless in 3" will weigh less than a pound a foot, that is essentially half the standard weight. The X pipe should come out at just 3lbs or under 1.5 kgs.

Greg

 

Very nice Greg. Keep up the good work.

What grade of Inconel are you using?

 

Hi Thal, it is inconel 625, which is what they normally use in coal fired power stations. It is of course what Top Fuellers, F1, some Nascars and many turbo cars use. The headers are mainly 0.7 mm thick except for the first pipe off the flange which is 0.9 m and the H pipe stuff is all 0.7 mm too. The O2 sensors are 321 stainless as Inco ones are not necessary and way too expensive. Again thanks to Goodfabs for saying, "you don't want them they are too expensive" great to have proper unbiased friendly helpful advice.

Greg

 

thats a real nice set up you have going for you. are you going to GTAW (tig) this bad boy? what filler will you use on the Inconel?

 

Not that I am doing it, just for the sake theoretical exercise in weight saving, 5 metres of 3" Ti pipe weighs in at 4.2 kgs, plus headers at 8 kgs, 2 burns mufflers at 3.5 kgs

http://www.burnsstainless.com/sm-300-450-17-2s.aspx

You could have a race system under 16 kgs which is dual 3" Versus a maximum weight of approx 65 kgs for a normal 3" system, close to 50 kgs or over 100 pounds lighter.

Greg

 

OK, back to an old project, obviously this is just a mock up to prove the design. The process is to weld the number 5 pipe first and ensure its fitment. This welding will be just tiny tacks without filler material, normally 3 tacks per pipe just incase changes are needed. The 5,6,7 pipes are within an inch, Pipe 8 needs to be tightened up. Other pipes will get slight tweeking changes.









This is the first section of the LHS headers as the 2 collectors and then fitted and twin pipes run down to the last collector. This is a tri-y system. As far as I am aware these are the largest headers ever attempted to be fitted to a 928. I believe they are the right size for the planned engine which is an ITB automatic stroker.

 

wow. I have reread this twice...pretty awesome...

 

Thanks Andy lots of work in the prep and skilling up to do this.

Here's a couple of pics that help with the perspective.



The magic pliers that squeeze the pipe to ensure it lines up all the way around, again remember it is only 0.7 mm thick so it doesn't need to be much out to be completely out.




No.5 Tacked




I will post some other pics later, the number five pipe is tacked and sizing is complete, I am extremely happy with how it fits.

 

I was very happy to discover a way to get much bigger headers on the 928. I know there is at least one party interested in building much bigger headers than these ones. Well what seems to be the way to attack this is by using the tri-y design. I will elaborate as I describe the pictures.

This is the position of the number 5 pipe



This pic shows that the number 5 pipe finishes before the bell housing bolts. This means when you remove the slip on collectors you get easy access to the clutch housing/flex plate.



This is the breakthrough, When looking at the collector, remember these only have two pipes, I slanted it. This, one gives more ground clearance, it also fits the space much better. The other collector which fits next to it slots into the remaining space perfectly. I would say you could fit up to 2 1/4" pipes in there. Mine are only 2"



This is with both primary collectors fitted, as you can see plenty of clearance, something not possible or easily possible with a 4 into 1 system.



Another shot of the same.



You can get an idea of the size of these pipe when seen against the factory exhaust. So it is quite a change, factory system I think is 2 1/4 at the manifold flange, it has one pipe per side and this system runs two 2 1/4" pipes that size per side. An interesting tidbit about inconel is how quick inconel exhausts cool down compared to stainless or mild steel.

 

Very Nice.
The 16V combination of spider intake and tri-y headers becomes a torque monster. My tri-y's are of the more traditional design and unleashed some serious torque between 1500-3500 RPM compared to the 32v exhaust manifolds.
Tony-

 

Greg, will be using ITBs for this engine.

Åke