hacker-pschorr

A lot of people do not consider them muscle cars either. Reason why the term "Pony Car" was created.

How many muscle cars have an independent rear end?

So like I said, the 928 is not a muslce car, not even close.

hacker-pschorr

Big Blocks are defined by bore spacing. The 928 engine has the same bore spacing as a 502 Chevy.

So yes, the 928 engine by the simplest definition is a big block engine.

Displacement has nothing to do with big block / small block. My friend races a 427 small block, where as the 928 is a 5.0 big block

JEC_31

Doh! I forgot about bore spacing. Thanks Hacker.

Jim bailey - 928 International

Interesting point about the bore spacing and that based on that it IS a BIG BLOCK! The Ford 427/428 had a 360 cu inch truck engine , the 460 had a 366 or so , the 409 chev had a 348 variant . Pontiac engines were 326-350-389-421 as I recall. The Boss 302s 69-70 Mustangs and Z-28 302 Cameros were SCCA Homoligation specials and made and sold ONLY to make them eligible to be raced as Sportscars on road race tracks. Thinking that a 273 cu inch engine the 4.5 liter makes the 928 a muscle car just does not seem right to me !!

djurek

OK, Big Block (euro), Hemi (euro), Looks like a Euro version of a Cuda. etc...
Quacks like a duck
GERMAN MUSCLE CAR!

Ispeed

With an X pipe, no cats, small resonators and RMB it sure sounds like a muscle car.

brutus

My 63 rambler sedan V-8 290 with dual glass packs sounded like a muscle car it had all of 150 hp ! it takes more than noise to be a muscle car.

PorKen

Don't you need a 4.11 rear end to be a muscle car?

Would the 3.09 count?

brutus

Porsche built the very best sportscar that they knew how when they started with a clean sheet of paper and made the 928. There was no discussion of gran tourisimo they made a car to succeed the 911 in all ways faster ,stronger, quieter ,able to meet crash , emissions ,and noise restrictions more comfortable ,more stabile ,easier to drive, and faster . They thought the 911 would become a footnote in Porsche history ! calling it a muscle car is not a compliment. The 928 is a great sports car although there is nothing very unique or ground breaking about it the whole is more than the sum of it's parts. That was and is the great accomplishment of the 928 designers and engineers.

SwayBar

If that were true, then why did they make it so heavy? For that point alone, I'd say Porsche was aiming for a GT versus a sport car since Porsche was well aware of the advantages of weight-savings.

Ispeed

They made the 928 super safe to meet future safety standards like 20 years away. They wanted a car that would sell in all markets in the future. That would explain some of the weight and 'overengineering' that went into the 928. The thing is that safety standards stopped increasing at some point in the '80s and the 928 remained somewhat overbuilt.
P.S. all cars are pretty heavy now as well.

JEC_31

Brutus, I agree the bulk of your post. Well said. However...

A) I with swaybar, this was meant to be a GT (but I am compelled to point out that early 928s were 300 lbs lighter than the Corvettes of the day, and those aluminum fenders and hoods weren't done for fun).

B) And I feel that there was quite a bit of unique and groundbreaking technology incorporated into the design. Examples: the Weissach rear suspension (which is still featured in automotive engineering college textbooks), the 1-piece molded bumper covers in the era of chrome steel bumpers, Nikasil for longevity when cars were still considered disposable appliances, the front-engine rear-transmission structure, the list goes on. Read Projekt 928.

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Make no mistake, it's no argument that the average 928 makes muscle cars feel like horse-drawn wagons (although they usually have lots and lots of horses...) in every aspect.

But I will continue to describe it to the redneck gearheads I meet as "A German Musclecar". Why? Because if I told them it was a Gran Turismo they would punch me for talkin' French or tell me that it ain't no goddamn Torino.

hacker-pschorr

928's are in the middle (at least back in the 70's). Porsche was going after the Jaguar XJS, Mercedes SEC & BMW coupe market with the 928.
This is part of the reason why the 928 did not make it. Porsche was conflicted on how to market the car. On one hand they were going to replace the 911 (pure sports car, at least back then). Yet the marketing team was going straight for the GT market.
During the muscle car era, there was always a Corvette available that would outrun even some of the fastest muscle cars (even at the drag strip) so would the Shelby Cobra. Neither of them are considered muscle cars.

Jim bailey - 928 International

The original engine design called for a displacement of 4.5 to 5.5 liters with the test engines built as 5 liters it was the kneejerk reaction to the oil embargo (the real one) which caused Porsche to select the 4.5 .That effectively emasculated the package and the 3100 lb weight of a manual seat, no A/c, no sunroof sports car became more of an issue. The stubborn loyalty of the aircooled crowd to the 911 pushed the now too heavy (or underpowered take your pick ) 928 toward the Gran Tourismo niche it offered a true automatic at a time when 911s lacked such a feature ( the semi auto matic stick shifts were a disaster). Since the 911 model name refused to die and the public percieved the 928 as a GT that is how it was sold. Had Porsche opted to race the 928 with a serious effort and development program including turbo chargers (which is probably why some early 1987 928 engines got oil squirters and forged rods) There would be no discussion about the fact that a 928 is a sports car. The success of the 928s being run today by individuals with limited resources (Kibort et all ) in sports car races is proof of my point. The term Gran Tourismo stricks me about the same as the term matronly So for me it is a sportscar which also happens to be comfortable stable and fast besides when the old very brown 1980 goes out on the track it is smack in the middle of a bunch of SPORTSCARS

hacker-pschorr

Jim,
Your point means much more when you consider a new 911 weighs more than my 928's.