John.

Well guys, there has been a lot going back and forth about the C5 and Z06 Corvettes as to how much faster they are than a 928. I checked some of the magazines I have and found the following:

C5 in Road and Track:
3230 lbs
345 HP
0-60 MPH: 4.8 seconds
1/4 mile: 13.3 sec @ 108 MPH
Top end 172 MPH

Z06 in Motor Trend 2/02 (we all know these guys foreign car bash)
0-60 MPH: 4.1 sec
1/4 mile: 12.48 @ 114.9 MPH

Z06 in Road and Track 3/02
3120 lbs
405 HP
0-60 4.7 sec
1/4 mile 13.1 @ 111 MPH
Top end 171 MPH

1987 928 S4 in Road and Track 3/87
3525 lbs
0-60 MPH: 5.5 sec
1/4 mile 13.9 @ 101 MPH
Top end: 165 MPH

Twin Turbo 928 "Bastard"
Est 360-400 crank HP
0-60 5.5 sec
1/4 mile 13.6 @ 114 MPH
Top End: Unknown, runs out of 5th at 165 MPH at the redline (based on the gear chart.)

Seeing as the GTS has quite a few more ponies than the S4, I would guess it is every bit as fast as a C5 as some on here claim it is. Quite frankly, I believe Drew's story of pulling one on the highway with his 1984 Euro S. You can bet the guy was trying too.

As for a Devek stroker kit, well my money would be on the 6.5 liter 928 as it leaves the Z06 in its wake to a top end of over 180 MPH. The White car (as it is called) has acheived a top end of 212 MPH with 6.5 normally aspirated liters of displacement. HP is 432 at the rear wheels with 472 lb-ft of torque. Let's not even talk about 6.5 liters of turbocharged 928 power, since we know 4.5 liters of turbocharged power can make close to 400 crank HP, the proof sits in my garage.

So Carlos, where does this Z06 pride come from? The real numbers are above. None of the road tests show this car doing high 11 seconds at over 120 MPH through a 1/4 mile, that is plain hogwash, drag strip chest beating BS.

Don't get me wrong, the Z06 is a very, very fast car, but it would appear as though the Bastard is swingin' more than enough meat to give it a good run, say from 40 MPH to 150 MPH. I would also bet a GTS could easily run with a C5 out on the highway. The Euro S cars made just 10 or so less HP than the 32V S4 "world engine", so why isn't it possible one could run with a C5?

Also remember, the new Vettes ride on HUGE rubber, much larger than the Sharks ever had. My performance figures were with 225/50 ZR 16 Dunlop SP 8000s on stock wheels and sport suspension.

Do you think I might be faster, say on 275 mm wide tires? As usual, facts talk and BS walks. My car only generates 2 psig of boost in 1st gear, meaning I don't put down all my HP until 2nd and 3rd gears. The 928 was and still is a hell of a machine and is enough of threat to pleanty of new high performance stuff out there.

Jay Wellwood

This is not to mention that the 928 is SEVERAL years older than the Chebby products listed for comparision.

I looked closely at a new Z06 in the dealer showroom about 6 months ago. having been thru my car pretty deeply, I was curious as to how the Vette was constructed. Interestingly enough, the rear suspension is now a near perfect copy of the 928 rear suspension. Looking at the motor, there is a difference in the intake, but reading thru some motor articles on the rebulding, noted that the torque values are now very comparable (i.e. angular turn vs. solid values - which I found interesting as well).

That being said, the later model Vetts are IMHO a mere copycat of the 928 from an engineering standpoint and are obviously treated to some minor improvements made be recent changes in technology. Still, bottom line is that they are a clone.

I'll take my 928 anyday.

Carlos

First I don't have any Z06 pride because I don't have a Z06. I do have an 87 S4 that I'm pretty fond of. But I am not deluded enough to think I can go abuse a comparable C5 more a' less a Z06. I'm at the drag strip 10 or 12 times a year several of those times with a very well run professional race team. I don't need Motor Trend to tell me that an 03 Z06 with a minimum of 25 more hp is slower than the 02. But bottom line I say to ANYBODY who thinks they have a Z06 killer, "withdraw some cash at the ATM, find a Z06 with a willing driver and test for youself." Please post the results.

Nothing personal John but I think "the bastard" would have its hands full with my S4. Give me 2 lights (not too much to ask) and I'll be waitng for you with a cigar in my hand. As for the "white car," I don't think it could stay in the same zip code with a comparably modified Z06 or as I said before, George's 911 V8.

Here's my #1 reason why. For some reason Porsche put these unbelievably high (final drive) gear ratios into a relatively heavy car. IMHO the BEST modification that can be done to improve 928 performance is to graft in a C5 6 speed & transaxle. If I had one THEN I might put a few bucks in my pocket and go look for a C5, but still no a Z06.

Tony

Along that subject line...
Has anyone heard word on the progress on the C5 6spd in a 928! Some guy out East was apparently doing it.


<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

srv

John,

I'm sticking with the stock vs stock debate as arguing modified vs anything else would be a continued waste of time.

As for your '..plain hogwash, drag strip chest beating BS', here's one example of a driver (J-Rod) who did 11.9 @114 completely stock including the stock radial tires:

<a href="http://www.ls1tech.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000435" target="_blank">http://www.ls1tech.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000435</a>

Read the whole post as it's informative for any car-guy.

There are more examples of stock, sub 12 times out there from non-magazine guys with the time slips to prove it.

As you noted in an earlier post of mine, I stated that the speed was 123 mph which is a mistake on my part; I am truly sorry. That's what I get for not looking it up.


Jay,

“Still, bottom line is that they are a clone.”

How can you possibly say the C5 is a clone of the 928? Truly one of the more interesting statements made.

Firstly, the rear suspensions you mentioned look completely different although I admit they share common functionality. After all, they are both independent rear suspensions.

To say that just because they are both independent rear suspensions make them a 'near perfect copy' is rather short-sighted to say the least.

Just one little example, there are no coil springs on the C5.

Are you sure you weren’t looking under a 911?

Secondly, it can be argued that the 928 engine is more 'advanced' since it has 4 camshafts and 32 valves versus one camshaft and 16 valves.

The list would go on and on.


Carlos,

George’s 911 is one bad-*** car as I saw his site…

John..

Carlos,

You must be smoking something funny. Your S4 might make 330 HP on a good day. So what, you have headers and maybe a free flow exhaust? Worth 15-30 HP max. Nothing improves engine output as significantly as positive manifold pressure. As for you "waiting after two lights", well that is very debatable. Your car and mine weigh about the same. You probably have less power and a lower reduction rear end gear. Assuming we can both drive as well as the other (yes, I can drive), how could you possibly get there first? That is like saying a Stock C4 Vette can beat a Callaway twin turbo C4 Vette...simply not possible.

I have driven 928 S4s and I can tell you the Bastard is quite a bit faster. The transition from NA to boost is like a sling shot in any gear. It feels like a very fast drag car with the top end power and handling to back it up. The numbers prove it. Let's not mention that the Bastard does not have the rear end gear you refer to (the reason I only get 2 psig of manifold pressure in 1st gear). The early cars were geared differently. The result: More torque to the road resulting in greater accelleration. Remember, I run on stock 225 tires and was able to get the numbers I gave you.

Like I said, the drag strip proves nothing. Let's talk about real world performance comparisons, say at low highway speeds on up, like Drew's experience.

A C5 has nothing an a good 928 GTS out on the highway and a nice S4 or early Euro S could hang out with one, I'm sure of it. The Z06 will most certainly beat the S4, but the GTS would give it a good run for the money. Best part of all, no 928 is a slapped together myriad of GM spare parts. I mean, have you looked inside a new Vette, the interiors are absolute junk, looking no better than what you cet in any Cavalier or Camaro.

I have a friend with a 93 Mustang Cobra with a Powerdyne blower running 9 psig. In a straight line he claims to be able to outrun C5s and Z06 Vettes, M3s with no problem. I have ridden in his car and it is very fast, probably a bit faster than the Bastard.

The Devek white car would easily outrun a stock Z06, or a well modded one. Mark's car has been on TV shows covering the high speed races, and they have measured it at over 210 MPH.

Georges 911 is not even worthy of mention here, I mean has that car ever seen speeds north of 180 MPH? Not! Is it aerodynamically stable approaching 200 MPH, I highly doubt it. The white car is a monster, with documented proof behind it. We all have yet to see any "time slips" or documented top end speeds of the Swamp Monster. To date it is all speculation.

The bottom line is that a 928 from any given year is just as potent of a car as a similar vintage Vette. And in a lot of cases, they are much better cars.

Ron_H

I'm only the little guy (86.5), but it seems to me that the real issue is: In which car would you rather be as you tour the countryside or get your groceries? I've driven corvettes (and other american "muscle"), but I prefer my 928, and have preferred my 356, my modified Speedster (maybe the best of all!!), my 911E, and my modified 914-6
(which will beat the crap out of my 928), to all of the other cars I've driven. This is particularly true after being in ANY of them for more than an hour. Of course if your objective is to hunt for other cars to race, remember to fear Art Arfons and his jet powered dragster (there is always someone who will find a way, no matter how ridiculous, to be faster!). I prefer to enjoy my ride as it was designed, and don't worry about whether or not the next guy may beat me to the next stop light. It is almost as if some guys go around saying: "That other guy's wife is better looking than mine". But I like MY wife. (if I had a wife...) And...... I prefer my 928 any day, and will leave the pissing contests to the schoolboys.

John..

I agree, this has become a large Urinating contest, but I love to razz these guys. A good debate is always fun.

Jim V

Here's what you do:

Find a guy who owns the offending car in question
and talk him into meeting you at the local drag strip on a test and tune night.
Run as many runs as you can(don't have to be against each other),switch cars between each set.
Report back how the cars actually did outside of the magazine tests.
Report back how the drivers did outside of their puffed chest bragging.

I think that will lay it all to rest, no?

John..

The strip is just a HP war, plain and simple. It involves little driver skill. All of this started when Drew told his (probably very true) story about being able to outrun the C5 on the highway.

We were then suddenly bombarded by C5 and Z06 fans, with reference to the "untouchable" (yet still undocumented) V8 Swamp Monster. My posts are based on facts and I still stand by my claim that a good GTS and S4 can run with a C5 and that the Bastard can give all of them a very good run for (a lot less of) their money.

Sorry if it sounds like chest beating, those who know me would tell you I am very conservative and down to earth with zero tolerance for BS claims.

Jim V

Well have the two fellows meet at a track day, again no need to run head to head just compare lap times and switch drivers and do the same.

I think these always/never arguements are pointless, if someone really wants to know how their car with them driving it will perform the only true test is track conditions where the cars can be used fully and safely. It matters not what some magazine article says because thats one car,one driver one track.

I completely dissagree with you about your opinion that a dragstip involves little driver skill, consider that at a typical nascar(the WWF of auto racing) event you could get laps down and long race and still come back to win. However at a major NHRA event if you count each run as a lap,
a mistake of .001 seconds on one lap and you go home.

Personally if someone beats a C5 with their 928 I think we should pat him on the back and say congrat rather that dicounting it as a fluke.
I don't really know what all the hoopla is about the vettes because whenever I see one on the road it usually has a large-haired woman in who looks as if she just left the salon.

Max

Just in!

Late model Mustang Cobra with a super charger can keep up for the first 60 or so feet, but at the end, the 928 handed him his ***.

Z06? Well I'm not sure, but I would like to give it a go some day for grins.

bcdavis

GO MAX!

<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

goodspeed928

The CAR is NOT a drag racer, mine old 70 455 gs
IS !!!
The 928 is the only car that will go 130+ ALL DAY
and I mean ALL DAY.
No other car can do that.

mine 2 cents <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

srv

John,

You said you have "zero tolerance for BS claims". Maybe you should take a good look in the mirror and start analyzing yourself first.

You pretend you know about ‘the strip’, yet your own words betray you for all to see: “It involves little driver skill”. Do you have any idea how absurd that comment really is?

It is painfully obvious you have no idea what you’re talking about, yet “you have zero tolerance for BS claims”. Take a look at yourself as you’re authoring plenty.

Just about everything you’ve posted on this subject is, “I feel”, “I think”, “it’s my opinion”, “I’m sure of it..”, “my posts are based on facts”, blah blah blah.

Where are the time sheets to back up your feelings/claims? Is that too much to ask? Let’s see some of these ‘facts’ you are referring to.

All you can do is speculate. My grandmother can speculate too.

Please, at least show one example of any stock 928 that dipped below 13 seconds in the quarter mile. The best I can find is 13.7 by a GT.

Time slips are ‘the facts’. As they say, put up, or shut up.


Jim V,

Great idea; now that’s where the proverbial rubber hits the road.


Max,

Be careful of the new Cobra’s. Those guys put undersize pulleys on their blower, a little exhaust work, and are getting 435+ horsepower at the rear wheels! That’s 511 crank horsepower; bye bye Z06 or anything else that strays in their path.

Oops, we’re supposed to be talking about stock cars...

Have you dyno-ed your car after the devek mods?


Goodspeed,

Your GS is a bad-***. I remember from way back where they were doing 13’s on the stock 70 series bias ply tires.