goodspeed928

I miss it BAD, You had to "DRIVE IT" to make it
fast, It was a hand full, loved it.
But try to drive it pass a a gas stop.
Most fun on four wheels. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

John.

srv,

I will say that drag racing involves very little skill as compared to other forms of motorsports. Quite frankly I think it is stupid, but nonetheless a good way to compare the straight line performance of a car.

Let's look at what drag racing really is:

You watch a tree, bring the revs up and drop the clutch (automatic in most cases). It is over in under 15 seconds, you never brake during the race and there is another 1/4+ mile of straight to stop. How LAME is that? Anybody who straps themself into a car that can run over 200 MPH in just a few seconds, but can't make even a 200 foot radius turn has a death wish on their mind.

So you want to talk driver skill? Let't talk Autocrossing, real sports car racing, or what about Formula 1? I will guarantee you any good sports car driver could master drag racing in a VERY short time. I would not place any money on any drag king out on a real road track. I mean they never have to corner, brake or plan any side movement of any real sorts. Tell me where the skill is in that? Pure and simple, if you can launch it fast, hold it straight and stop it before the runout what else is really involved???? Please tell me, what else is there? Sure a few hundredths can cost you a win, but what about the real endurance of say a Rolex 24 hours race? Come on guys, get real!

Racing on a road course involves calculated decisions, like where to brake, when to brake, when to apply power, etc., etc., etc. Oh yes, and TURNING. The thing that gets me is that most all forms of American motorsports shut down if it rains. In F1 they run in the wet. Don't even begin to tell me there is even remotely as much skill in drag racing. If there was, drag strips would not let any 18 year old without real course training out on their "test and tune" nights. How much unsafe junk shows up at those race nights? Heaps of crap with small brakes and huge scabbed in engines running on skinny front tires. How many of those kids really know how to drive their cars on a course (or the street) safely? I mean let's be realistic....how many road courses have "test and tune" day where you can just drive right out without an instructor, significant experience or a racing license. In most cases it is a sports car club that has to rent out the course for a weekend. The fact is it takes more skill. Period.

I have routinely killed many more potent cars with my old stock 1983 944 out on the Autocross circuits. 911 turbos, Boxsters, 944 turbos. On the flip side, I have been thoroughly killed by some 1.7 liter 914s as well. How about when a 914 beats a 911 turbo on a very fast and open autocross course? That describes real driver skill, not some bogus light to light straight line steroid race. Sharks can do well on the track or at the Autocross as well.

My only point in providing you guys with real straight line performance numbers is to dispute this C5/Z06 almighty "can't be beat" power you claim is out there. If I simply wanted to go fast in a straight line I would buy a $10,000 9 second bike and waste any stock Vette in a straight line, including the almighty Z06 king of the hill supercar. $50,000 for a Vette....uh I don't think so.

As I recall, you were the one who started talking this 1/4 mile garbage against Drew's post. He simply stated he had run against a C5 and beat it. My use of the times was simply to back up his statements, that was all. I could care less about drag racing and you won't see my 928 at the "strip". My "facts" came from publications of road tests, not some persons "claim" off the internet. Hmmm, I wonder which one can really be trusted?

You are right, there probably isn't a stock 928 that has ever turned under a 13 second 1/4 mile, but who the heck really cares? The point is in real world driving, the Shark is a fine, very fast car that can, has and does run with the best of them. Last time I checked, I have never just driven my car 1/4 mile, in fact most of my drives are over 20 miles.

Ron_H

You guys have really upset and confused me. I thought I was driving a GT automobile, and now I find it may be a dragster automobile. <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> Well, at least I can count on John's "facts" which were presented in his original post. I guess I'll go figure out how to add some wheelie bars on my dragster car.

Max

SRV 310/312 to the ground , this was within the first 500 miles.

Jim V

Well now John (Cincinnati),you really said a mouth full with that last post! You wouldn't think that with me here on a 928 list and owning 2 of them; well you just wouldn't think that I'd been visiting my local dragstip wherever I've lived for over 20 years! And I love a good night at the strip whether competing or spectating.
Of course your assesment of the skill level of drag racing makes me wonder if I should be taking the bus to the strip cause if I haven't made it to the pro level in drag racing in 20 yrs of trying my driving skill must put me about equal to a cabbage behind the wheel of an automobile.
Yes, you've managed to insult me, and million of racing fans, and hundreds of thousand competitors at all levels, and a couple of sanctioning bodies and, a purely American sport that's been on the earth much long than you have!
It's OK we aren't taking it to heart,we understand.
I've been around such a variety groups of auto enthusiasts to know that there's one in every crowd.
BTW, on those 20 mile drives you don't happen to run into any traffic signals do you?? Maybe several block apart, or 1/4 mile in between them?

If you're afraid the shark will break(it won't) go
down to Hertz rent something cool and different like a Caddy and head down to your local strip and try it for a night,then get back to me.
Just do it on test & tune night or an afternoon fun event, don't run the real guys on Sat night because you won't be there past one run if you do.

bcdavis

Yeah, I agree that this is not the kind of topic to get serious about. Racing is something to do for fun. It proves nothing. So you won a race... So what? You're the better man. Whatever! It's stupid to base your self-worth on whether your car can beat the next guy. If the point is simply to beat anyone who ever tries to race you, on any road, you would have an un-streetable car. My point on this issue, is that it is indeed fun to beat someone who has a "holier than thou" attitude, and a superior attitude, in their $50,000 car, with a 20 year old 928 that cost a fraction of that. It makes me chuckle. But it does not prove anything if I win or lose. Just the fact that I can give a C5 or M5 a run for their money is cool in itself. I made the mistake before, of turning my street car into a race car. I had a 280 Z that would beat a lot of cars out there. The engine was built up, and the car was light as hell. But it was harsh to ride in, was stripped of non-essentials like AC, an interior, power seats, etc... After a couple years of uncomfortable driving in LA, I got a 928. And a sportbike. So I have my fast, comfy street car, and a bike that can beat any car on the road. Any Z06 you know can do 0-60 in 2.1 seconds? I didn't think so. I love my 928 for what it is. I love taking it on long trips, it is fine in traffic, it is fun in canyons, autocrosses, and it can beat a lot of newer cars. I still love it.

Normy

srv-

DO me a favor. Do the following-

1. Hide your keys.

2. Have several Milwaukee's Best....

3. Entertain the lover in your life....

4. In your shark...

[I'd do that in the garage; I was almost fired once for doing that in a 727...]

5. Then tear up your voter registration card!

N!

[You have one...right?]

Carlos

Well said Jim V. I want to know why it is that drag racing at the track or on the sreet automaticly makes you an knuckle dragging mouth breather (even though your car returns home unscathed)but if you do $30,000 worh of damage to your car at a DE pretending to be Michael Shumaker that makes you some kind of hero. Rick from Portland (certified DE instructor) almost runs down a guy on a bicycle, resulting in 1 upside down & smoking 993TT. The passenger (potential buyer) puts a post up saying he was scared ****tless by Rick demonstration of his & his car's capabilities. What do these purist idiots say? They treat Rick like a returning war hero. Forget the the fact that he almost killed three people and destroyed a beautiful car. At least what he was doing was "true to the spirit of the car," and didnt involve a contest with some car of lesser breeding from America or Japan. Know what I'd like to know? Are the majority of us Porsche owners (that dont smash our cars into walls playing boy racer) picking up the insurace tabs for these cars that are commonly smashed up by these highly skilled drivers that John Kuhn is referring to in his post.

I know this: I've engaged in countless "acceleraion contests" on thr street anbeen to the track my fair share of times. I ALWAYS DROVE MY **** HOME. Watch the very best road racers in the world and you will find that they COMMONLY crash and heavily damage cars. If YOU try it YOU will too!!!!! Do I only go on the interstate to avoid turns? No I like in the mountains and love mountain drives. Deals gap (also known as "the dragon") is 1.5 hours away. I invite ALL boy racer purist to come and demonstrate your prowess at Deals Gap. This way you can mot only destroy your car but rid the planet of your genetics in the process as you careen off the mountainside in the "true spirit" of your Porsche.

Is acceleration the ultimate test of a car's performance, of course not. Is it a relatively safe and fun way to enjoy one of the key performance characteristics of our cars, hell yeah.

Don't like it? Don't do it! But anybody who thinks that automaticly makes them somehow superior can kiss my ***. Likewise to all who think that the Porsche badge automaticly insures superiority in every category. And Max, my car drove by a Mustang Cobra with a Vortec S-Trim (that's a blower for the uninitiated). Does that mean I have an 11 sec. 928? No it just means that some underinformed guy with a Cobra and a credit card managed to bolt some parts onto his car and obtain no performance gains in the process (probably like a lot of people on this thread). So John you go get some "killer autocross" springs & sway bars & drive around with a mouthpiece to keep from chipping a tooth. You'll still get your *** handed too you by Miatas & 914s. As for me, I'll add some power as I get the chance and drive right by as you're waiting to regain conciousness after crossing that speed bump.

srv

John,

I’m not even going to address your “LAME” view of drag racing as it looks like you hopelessly put both feet in this time.

This whole discussion for me has never been about 928 vs Z06 as I own both. And I like them both for different reasons.

This has been all about backing up one’s claims, that’s it!

And of course I’m not referring to ‘kills’ like Drew’s as it would take an in-car movie or witness to do that.

For example, you finally quoted something verifiable when you stated “..I would buy a $10,000 9 second bike and waste any stock Vette in a straight line, including the almighty Z06 king of the hill supercar.”

There are lots of time slips to verify that claim which makes it a fact. An actual side-by-side race to ‘prove it’ would really be a waste of time as the outcome is already known in a mistake-free race.

As a matter of fact, you would be able to safely make that claim about any stock car on the road today, and no one would dispute you. Why? It’s all in the time slips.

You said, “My use of the times was simply to back up his statements, that was all.”

Which times did you use to back up his story? The times you posted (..and everybody else’s for that matter) repeatedly show that the 928 is slower than the C5/Z06.

Which stock times are you referring to?!?!

And please don’t utter one syllable of The White Car as it’s not stock.


Max,

Nice numbers! It’ll get even better when it loosens up with some mileage under it’s belt.


Bcdavis,

I know of no stock car that can do 0-60 in 2.1 seconds!

Again, verifiable evidence; I love it!


Normy!

You’re one funny guy!

How could I possibly do #4 if #1 was already accomplished?

Un-doing #1 after too many of #2 could prove difficult (..except substitute Lagavulin for Milwaukee’s Best please).

After all, you did imply an ordering of events.

#5 is simply un-American, more so even suggest...

John.

My only point is drag racing does involve less skill than autocrossing or real track racing. Yes, I have won a lot of autocrosses in my class, and I have lost a lot in other cases. It doesn't make me the best driver or anything like that. I never said that. I do consider myself an above average and very safe driver.

As for drag racing being safer? We have all seen the videos of these cars end for ending at triple digit speeds. Statistically, it probably is safer, that wasn't the basis for this arguement.

My point is this....you guys talk all high and mighty about the Corvette, which is, under any definition, a very high performance car. I never disputed that and I won't because a good Vette with a good driver on a track is a hard car to beat. But, why is it when you guys talk so highly about these cars, all you can do is quote 1/4 mile times and 0-60? Now granted, I did this to back up Drew's claims of straight line performance out on the highway, to prove a point that the 928 can hang with them. If you think that 1/2 a second and a few more MPH in the 1/4 mile means it is leaps and bounds faster out on a real road, well I would disagree.

I mean, to go out and buy a $50,000 Corvette and only talk about how fast it is in a straight line. Guys, that is just plain stupid. I can buy a tubbed 1970 Nova with a big block and demolish a lot of stuff in a straight line, and guess what it probably would cost under $10,000.

My point is this, the Vette and the 928 are sports cars, not drag cars. Drag racing proves nothing, and only represents one portion of the car and driver's ability.

Carlos, for some reason you felt the need to go back and find my last name. Not sure why, you must be trying to "expose me" or something. Quite frankly, I don't care. I'm not embarrassed to put my full name on anything I have written, are you? If your driving skill is so great, bring your Shark up for the next Ohio Valley region autocross and see how well you do, because I don't street race. We run on a drag strip (Kilkare), so it is a fast circuit. Your car would see speeds of close to 100 MPH, then you would have to brake for the cones. There will be 914s and 911s there cutting two to five seconds off your best time, guaranteed. Maybe your drag racing skills and high horsepower will help you, but I doubt it.

I never came right out and said any stock 928 was faster than the C5 or Z06. I stand corrected if I have. I simply said that a good S4 or GTS can hang close by.

Nonetheless, it has been fun, this debating of sorts. Sorry if you guys take it personally. A good debate is always fun, so let's not let things get out of hand. Really, I have no hard feelings.

Carlos, by the way, my 944 has no modifications, nor do I plan to do any.

Carlos

Now that's a little more civil. There are skils involving suttle nuances that seperate the really good from the average in all these forms of racing. And I think Michael Shumacker could get cometetive in NASCAR in about 20 minutes. But I think he would be upside down & on fire if he tried to make a full pass in John Force's funny car. To think that an accelerated learning curve for the new skills would only belong to one group is a little presumptious there John.

That said, I wont drive to ohio but I will be in Bowling Green for the NMRA world finals With George's killer SSO Mustang this fall. Come show me how fast your bastard is. Two lights and its on. As to your claims about how close porsches hang, read the other boards & watch the races. Now maybe your car is just faster than the guys I see getting their asses handed to them. But I think you just happen to be incorrect. The plastic pig must at least be a thorobread racing pig 'cause the races I watch show them doing pretty good. No hard feelings just different opinions.

srv

John,

The reason 0-60, 0-100, and 1/4 mile times are quoted is that they are the performance metrics available to help us make comparisons. They are valid since everybody records them, else, why do it?

Of course the best-case scenario is bringing the cars in question to the track and have it out, but we’re rarely afforded that luxury. So where do you turn to? Published times.

Given the wealth of times available, one can get a pretty good feel for what any model car can do and how it’ll stack up against another one.

Drewster’s original post was about a (rolling) drag race, hence why we “go out and buy a $50,000 Corvette and only talk about how fast it is in a straight line”. That’s the essence of the whole discussion, going fast, straight.

That’s all we’re talking about here, straight-line performance of a STOCK car. You are the one always going off topic by bringing up auto-x, road racing, and non-stock cars.

By the way, in the 1/4 mile, a half second is an eternity! That’s five car-lengths! That’s how badly a stock Viper spanks a stock Z06(..ouch!).

Yep, that hurts, but the Viper is king of the hill, stock. Most Z06 owners would most likely agree too, although they would also probably say they’d still prefer the Z. The bottom line is, the Viper is highly respected for that half-second disparity as it represents an eternity and a major ***-whooping.

I disagree that “drag racing proves nothing”, and agree that it “represents one portion of the car and driver’s ability”.

Again, the whole basis of this discussion is straight-line performance. And what better way is there to measure that other than by rolling/dragging and recording the times?

I have not taken this personally, and I appreciate your concern.

I agree too that a good debate is fun. A good debate is one that remains on topic, and focused; unfortunately that is usually hard to maintain using the media we have.

I’ve tried to manage that by insistence of using stock cars as examples, and by using published times and/or well documented personal times such the J-Rod example.

There are guys out there who scan and publish their track time tickets, but I didn’t include those because those cars were not stock. Nonetheless, they demonstrate the spirit of full disclosure for their peers to analyze/critique.

Lastly, no hard feelings here!

Normy

Yeah, but I think their points are the same as mine, srv: you put too much stock in numbers that you have read in a book somewhere...

N-

Jim V

Back at John; I don't know if you've ever taken a car to the strip or not but if you haven't you should try it just once, there's a little more involved than mashing the go pedal I've done very little autocrossing and would not say there more or less skill in either; some very similar and some completely different skills involved.
A day doing either is actually suprisingly similar: You pay your $10, get as many runs as the crowd on hand will allow,spend alot of time waiting your turn and doing alot of bench racing and general socializing,compareing cars, getting and giving tips to better your runs. In both cases you and your machine are running against yourself as well as the other guys and if you finish last on the day but come away with personal best times you go home happy.
And a day at any track is better than a day at the office.

I forgot who brought up rain tires in American racing, but agree this is one of the silliest things not only do the fans get to see the race they payed for on the day they paid for but it adds an extra skill to the competition. Unfortunatly racing here has become like all the rest of our sports; more about making more money and hob-knobbing with the investors.
Nascar has become a complete joke, the IRL is now nascar with no fenders and CART will be gone very soon. AMLS is good but Bill France is already trying to drive them out ( how dare anyone race in the USA w/o paying him off).

Don't care if I get beat, just trying to have fun out there.

bcdavis

srv...

2.1 seconds in my *motorcycle* if you read more closely...

My point was that I drive my 928 in a traffic filled city, in comfort and style. But when I want to "prove something" about how money doesn't always buy speed, or wins, I go stomp some Z06's, Ferarris, Vipers, and any other expensive exotics I can find. In my bike... And I chuckle... But my 928 is just a great daily driver, that can kick butt on a lot of new cars. Which also makes me grin. If I want to "prove" something about my vehicle being faster than your vehicle, let me tell you, it will be the one on two wheels I bring to the dragstrip or the freeway, or whatever...