Forbes Bashing 928s Unacceptable email Them
11-16-2002, 12:40 AM
#17
Thom,
E-mailed Forbes. Wasn't particularly mean or my typical long-winded self. Made a point or two.
We got a response. A good thing.
Thanks for the heads up.
Anyone near the editor? Offer a spin, and maybe a hand on the wheel where the curves grow thick...bet he buy's one. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
As to SCM, for that matter Forbes, they are primarily investment magazines.
If value is the bottom line I can only hope that I'm as lucky picking up a late 86 1/2 or S4 someday. For the 'investment'of less than a new KIA or Hyundai even with my meandering, mechanical, learning curve the 928 value only increases. I have simple needs and if I can keep a small stable of 928's together until I feeb' out there is a good chance that someone is going to have one of the finds of a lifetime on the second floor of a Dutch Barn in north western Pennsylvania someday. Lucky Bastard!
I have wanted a 928 since I first saw a flick of one in a magazine. Investment didn't cross my mind then, nor, does it now.
Ed Ruiz pretty well covered the topic awhile back.
So, my view is: the SCM folks are right about the 928 being a poor investment if you are looking for recompense at the end of ownership.
However, if you are willing to bust a knuckle, and are willing to learn I have yet to see a better value on the market.
Cayenne, you bet!
The TRUE air-cooled, rear engined Porsche enthusiast's -this only applies to the everything else is crap variety- need to see the aft end of other water cooled Porsche products.
<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
E-mailed Forbes. Wasn't particularly mean or my typical long-winded self. Made a point or two.
We got a response. A good thing.
Thanks for the heads up.
Anyone near the editor? Offer a spin, and maybe a hand on the wheel where the curves grow thick...bet he buy's one. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
As to SCM, for that matter Forbes, they are primarily investment magazines.
If value is the bottom line I can only hope that I'm as lucky picking up a late 86 1/2 or S4 someday. For the 'investment'of less than a new KIA or Hyundai even with my meandering, mechanical, learning curve the 928 value only increases. I have simple needs and if I can keep a small stable of 928's together until I feeb' out there is a good chance that someone is going to have one of the finds of a lifetime on the second floor of a Dutch Barn in north western Pennsylvania someday. Lucky Bastard!
I have wanted a 928 since I first saw a flick of one in a magazine. Investment didn't cross my mind then, nor, does it now.
Ed Ruiz pretty well covered the topic awhile back.
So, my view is: the SCM folks are right about the 928 being a poor investment if you are looking for recompense at the end of ownership.
However, if you are willing to bust a knuckle, and are willing to learn I have yet to see a better value on the market.
Cayenne, you bet!
The TRUE air-cooled, rear engined Porsche enthusiast's -this only applies to the everything else is crap variety- need to see the aft end of other water cooled Porsche products.
<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
11-18-2002, 11:12 AM
#19
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Thanks for the heads-up. I jumped the editor with this:
Dear Editor at Forbes:
Shame on you!!! Bashing on a vehicle that you obviously know nothing about! But let's start out with some of the statements from your article:
"Be that as it may, Porsche continued to toy with the idea of expanding its lineup and offering larger cars (witness the forthcoming Cayenne to see how long it's taken for Porsche to truly realize this notion)"
Porsche has always taken YEARS to design and test its vehicles! The 928 was first conceived in the 1971 and wasn't put into production until late 1977 (1978 model year). Different engines were considered, drivetrain and suspension layouts, body design...etc. Porsche continued to redesign the 928 until they arrived at a design that would continue to uphold the Porsche tradition in motor cars...not just another car to expand it's lineup! Also, with the tide of new emission and car design standards that the U.S. government was considering, Porsche needed to have another vehicle in their automotive lineup that would meet and exceed the possible automotive future. Now, also look into the years of design and testing that the Boxster was put through until it's release to the public! The same holds for the Cayenne! ALL the U.S. domestic car makers and most overseas (read: Asia) are making SUV's, why not Porsche?
"There is no concern about what all of the other factory four-door 928s will now be worth. There are none. Of course, you have to wonder a great deal about how this contraption will drive. The handling couldn't have been helped by a wheelbase approximately one foot longer than stock and an addition of hundreds of pounds in weight"
It's a 4-door hatchback/wagon for goodness sake! It was a one-time special that is unique and actually a wonderful design. Before you (or the writer) bash this design, why not look back into...lets pick PONTIAC! They had the Trans-AM in the late 70's. Pontiac designed and built two Trans-Am wagon's and had the prototypes driven around the U.S. to major dealerships for reaction...but they never intended to actually produce the Trans-Am station wagon. It got wonderful and colorful reactions but as one salesperson from a dealership was overheard to say, "We had names for girls who did things that Pontica is doing to us with this Trans-Am..." (which translates into teasing...). Check me with Road & Track or some such magazine...but I vividly remember the article because the car was actually very neat!
"the original 928 was not a light car to begin with. The factory had to use wildly expensive aluminum doors to pare some of the excess pork from their creation. Plus, any original 928 is more of a freight train than a nimble rally car. So this extra long, extra heavy version is mostly for cruising, which makes it just like most modifieds and hot rods: mainly for show, not too much go"
Obviously, someone has never driven a 928. Yes, they are big and heavier than the other Types of Porsche cars. But they track and drive better than other Porsches! The special rear suspension adds to the high-speed cornering and the 928 handles as nimble as any other lighter sports car. It has a positive road handling that is unmatched by most other cars then and today! I road race my early 79 928, and I can match and even out-handle (corner) most other "stock" production cars with it...and that's on 360 rated hard compound street tires!
"Another concern: 928s have tremendously complicated V-8s that require very knowledgeable mechanics (a rarity) and special parts that sometimes just aren't available. Remember, collector cars like Ferraris drive aftermarket parts production, as do higher-volume collectibles like 911s. But 928s have few fans, which creates zero market for making parts to fix them."
Really? Then I must hang around with the wrong crowd! For a complicated V8, it sure is easy to repair! It is based on the same mathmetics of the U.S. V8's that has been around...over half-a-century? But it's innovative belt-driven overhead camshafts (not so innovative really) gave it a dependability over the U.S. chain-driven V8's (which not that most engines today are belt-driven) and that's been since 1978! Being an all-aluminum engine from top to bottom, of course parts and more expensive! All exotic sports car parts are higher priced than domestic cars! Domestics, whether from Asia or the U.S., are produced in huge volumes! Porsche, as many others, are far less in production numbers but the quality of the workmanship is a step above! I better let my independant shop mechanic ($45 hr/labor) know that he shouldn't be working on my 928...he isn't qualified! (Oh, and he and I is modifying my 928 for next year's road racing events...but I better not because it's too complicated an engine...YEAH RIGHT!).
As for only a few followers and fans and no parts...do some research before publishing! I know there are tens of thousands of fans of the 928 V8-powered Porsche car. Many own the other Porsche Types and would love to own a 928. The sound of the V8's exhaust note, the power and handling is very well-known today. What was yesterday's Edsel is today's exotic sports car!
Last, parts....
There are plenty of companies that specialize in 928's only! Many of the businesses don't just sell...they race 928's. I'm not talking racing at local tracks, you better turn your cable/satellite to SPEED and ESPN for the GT2/3 races. Mark Anderson of 928 Intl is a demi-god to us 928'ers. His 928 racecar is well known and many of the internationally famous tracks in the U.S. Mark Kibort is another who races in the early 16-valve version.
As for parts sources....check out these companies:
<a href="http://www.icsamerica.com/928/" target="_blank">http://www.icsamerica.com/928/</a>
<a href="http://autopedia.com/stuttgart-west/" target="_blank">http://autopedia.com/stuttgart-west/</a>
<a href="http://www.928intl.com/" target="_blank">http://www.928intl.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.autoatlanta.com/" target="_blank">http://www.autoatlanta.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.devek.net/" target="_blank">http://www.devek.net/</a>
<a href="http://www.pap-parts.com/" target="_blank">http://www.pap-parts.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.mesaperformance.com/" target="_blank">http://www.mesaperformance.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.performanceproducts.com/" target="_blank">http://www.performanceproducts.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.platz.com/" target="_blank">http://www.platz.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.jageng.com/auto_1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.jageng.com/auto_1.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.928gt.com/" target="_blank">http://www.928gt.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.tweeks.com/" target="_blank">http://www.tweeks.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.smartcart.com/Paragon/index.cgi" target="_blank">http://www.smartcart.com/Paragon/index.cgi</a>
<a href="http://www.pelicanparts.com/" target="_blank">http://www.pelicanparts.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.vertexauto.com/" target="_blank">http://www.vertexauto.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.928developments.com/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.928developments.com/index.html</a>
I won't even begin to list the salvage yards and used parts listings I have for ordering 928 used parts! It's twice as long as the above list!
I sold my other Porsches to keep my 928...not because of money. Just from the enjoyment and pleasure from driving it gives me over the others...
CJ Ryan
Mason City, Iowa
See my website for more info about 928's...
Website:
<a href="http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/boot/66/main_index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/boot/66/main_index.htm</a>
Dear Editor at Forbes:
Shame on you!!! Bashing on a vehicle that you obviously know nothing about! But let's start out with some of the statements from your article:
"Be that as it may, Porsche continued to toy with the idea of expanding its lineup and offering larger cars (witness the forthcoming Cayenne to see how long it's taken for Porsche to truly realize this notion)"
Porsche has always taken YEARS to design and test its vehicles! The 928 was first conceived in the 1971 and wasn't put into production until late 1977 (1978 model year). Different engines were considered, drivetrain and suspension layouts, body design...etc. Porsche continued to redesign the 928 until they arrived at a design that would continue to uphold the Porsche tradition in motor cars...not just another car to expand it's lineup! Also, with the tide of new emission and car design standards that the U.S. government was considering, Porsche needed to have another vehicle in their automotive lineup that would meet and exceed the possible automotive future. Now, also look into the years of design and testing that the Boxster was put through until it's release to the public! The same holds for the Cayenne! ALL the U.S. domestic car makers and most overseas (read: Asia) are making SUV's, why not Porsche?
"There is no concern about what all of the other factory four-door 928s will now be worth. There are none. Of course, you have to wonder a great deal about how this contraption will drive. The handling couldn't have been helped by a wheelbase approximately one foot longer than stock and an addition of hundreds of pounds in weight"
It's a 4-door hatchback/wagon for goodness sake! It was a one-time special that is unique and actually a wonderful design. Before you (or the writer) bash this design, why not look back into...lets pick PONTIAC! They had the Trans-AM in the late 70's. Pontiac designed and built two Trans-Am wagon's and had the prototypes driven around the U.S. to major dealerships for reaction...but they never intended to actually produce the Trans-Am station wagon. It got wonderful and colorful reactions but as one salesperson from a dealership was overheard to say, "We had names for girls who did things that Pontica is doing to us with this Trans-Am..." (which translates into teasing...). Check me with Road & Track or some such magazine...but I vividly remember the article because the car was actually very neat!
"the original 928 was not a light car to begin with. The factory had to use wildly expensive aluminum doors to pare some of the excess pork from their creation. Plus, any original 928 is more of a freight train than a nimble rally car. So this extra long, extra heavy version is mostly for cruising, which makes it just like most modifieds and hot rods: mainly for show, not too much go"
Obviously, someone has never driven a 928. Yes, they are big and heavier than the other Types of Porsche cars. But they track and drive better than other Porsches! The special rear suspension adds to the high-speed cornering and the 928 handles as nimble as any other lighter sports car. It has a positive road handling that is unmatched by most other cars then and today! I road race my early 79 928, and I can match and even out-handle (corner) most other "stock" production cars with it...and that's on 360 rated hard compound street tires!
"Another concern: 928s have tremendously complicated V-8s that require very knowledgeable mechanics (a rarity) and special parts that sometimes just aren't available. Remember, collector cars like Ferraris drive aftermarket parts production, as do higher-volume collectibles like 911s. But 928s have few fans, which creates zero market for making parts to fix them."
Really? Then I must hang around with the wrong crowd! For a complicated V8, it sure is easy to repair! It is based on the same mathmetics of the U.S. V8's that has been around...over half-a-century? But it's innovative belt-driven overhead camshafts (not so innovative really) gave it a dependability over the U.S. chain-driven V8's (which not that most engines today are belt-driven) and that's been since 1978! Being an all-aluminum engine from top to bottom, of course parts and more expensive! All exotic sports car parts are higher priced than domestic cars! Domestics, whether from Asia or the U.S., are produced in huge volumes! Porsche, as many others, are far less in production numbers but the quality of the workmanship is a step above! I better let my independant shop mechanic ($45 hr/labor) know that he shouldn't be working on my 928...he isn't qualified! (Oh, and he and I is modifying my 928 for next year's road racing events...but I better not because it's too complicated an engine...YEAH RIGHT!).
As for only a few followers and fans and no parts...do some research before publishing! I know there are tens of thousands of fans of the 928 V8-powered Porsche car. Many own the other Porsche Types and would love to own a 928. The sound of the V8's exhaust note, the power and handling is very well-known today. What was yesterday's Edsel is today's exotic sports car!
Last, parts....
There are plenty of companies that specialize in 928's only! Many of the businesses don't just sell...they race 928's. I'm not talking racing at local tracks, you better turn your cable/satellite to SPEED and ESPN for the GT2/3 races. Mark Anderson of 928 Intl is a demi-god to us 928'ers. His 928 racecar is well known and many of the internationally famous tracks in the U.S. Mark Kibort is another who races in the early 16-valve version.
As for parts sources....check out these companies:
<a href="http://www.icsamerica.com/928/" target="_blank">http://www.icsamerica.com/928/</a>
<a href="http://autopedia.com/stuttgart-west/" target="_blank">http://autopedia.com/stuttgart-west/</a>
<a href="http://www.928intl.com/" target="_blank">http://www.928intl.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.autoatlanta.com/" target="_blank">http://www.autoatlanta.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.devek.net/" target="_blank">http://www.devek.net/</a>
<a href="http://www.pap-parts.com/" target="_blank">http://www.pap-parts.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.mesaperformance.com/" target="_blank">http://www.mesaperformance.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.performanceproducts.com/" target="_blank">http://www.performanceproducts.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.platz.com/" target="_blank">http://www.platz.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.jageng.com/auto_1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.jageng.com/auto_1.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.928gt.com/" target="_blank">http://www.928gt.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.tweeks.com/" target="_blank">http://www.tweeks.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.smartcart.com/Paragon/index.cgi" target="_blank">http://www.smartcart.com/Paragon/index.cgi</a>
<a href="http://www.pelicanparts.com/" target="_blank">http://www.pelicanparts.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.vertexauto.com/" target="_blank">http://www.vertexauto.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.928developments.com/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.928developments.com/index.html</a>
I won't even begin to list the salvage yards and used parts listings I have for ordering 928 used parts! It's twice as long as the above list!
I sold my other Porsches to keep my 928...not because of money. Just from the enjoyment and pleasure from driving it gives me over the others...
CJ Ryan
Mason City, Iowa
See my website for more info about 928's...
Website:
<a href="http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/boot/66/main_index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/boot/66/main_index.htm</a>
11-18-2002, 10:45 PM
#20
Racer
With just a few minutes between projects, I dropped Mr. M Frank the following email.
__________________________________________
M Frank, thank you for your response to the Rennlist 928 BB. If nothing else it does show you are a person of good character and I can appreciate that.
Looking through the post following your response (M Frank), I see that the general consensus is that you have been somewhat forgiven for your indiscretions. I am sure you have heard from many true Porsche car and 928 owners pointing out the flaws in the 928 article in question. So in an attempt to be pithy I will only submit the following questions to you.
One thing I see missing in you response is any mention of a retraction in the next issue! Why is this? Is this not customary when untruths are made? I would like to see an apology in print by the writer as well.
If you (M Frank) would like to make a weekend trip to Texas for some spirited 928 driving, I would be more than happy to pick you up at the Harlingen International airport and put you up for the weekend at my home. I will even through in a trip over to Mexico for a Saturday lunch or early dinner.
The ball is in your court!
Regards
Max
1989 928 S4 Auto (Just a tad over 40K on the clock and puts down "over" 300 HP/300 TQ “to the ground”)
__________________________________________
M Frank, thank you for your response to the Rennlist 928 BB. If nothing else it does show you are a person of good character and I can appreciate that.
Looking through the post following your response (M Frank), I see that the general consensus is that you have been somewhat forgiven for your indiscretions. I am sure you have heard from many true Porsche car and 928 owners pointing out the flaws in the 928 article in question. So in an attempt to be pithy I will only submit the following questions to you.
One thing I see missing in you response is any mention of a retraction in the next issue! Why is this? Is this not customary when untruths are made? I would like to see an apology in print by the writer as well.
If you (M Frank) would like to make a weekend trip to Texas for some spirited 928 driving, I would be more than happy to pick you up at the Harlingen International airport and put you up for the weekend at my home. I will even through in a trip over to Mexico for a Saturday lunch or early dinner.
The ball is in your court!
Regards
Max
1989 928 S4 Auto (Just a tad over 40K on the clock and puts down "over" 300 HP/300 TQ “to the ground”)
01-11-2003, 04:38 AM
#21
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by mfrank:
<strong>...Ah, which has me wondering, what do 928 owners think of the Cayenne?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">As a Porsche: It's an abomination.
As a Sport Utility Vehicle: It's very impressive.
As an excuse to develop the new 928's engine: It's wonderful!
-The 928 S
<strong>...Ah, which has me wondering, what do 928 owners think of the Cayenne?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">As a Porsche: It's an abomination.
As a Sport Utility Vehicle: It's very impressive.
As an excuse to develop the new 928's engine: It's wonderful!
-The 928 S
