Adding knock sensor to 86.5
10-23-2006, 01:19 AM
#16
Burning Brakes
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PorKen,
I see you have found Safeguard. Pretty darn good product for how long it has been around.
Lorenfb, though knock sensing does not *require* the use of a crank position sensor, or two knock sensors - it sure does work better.
Knock sensors have to determine the knock signal in, as I'm sure you're aware, a very noisy environment. In order to make that system as dicriminatory as possible, more data is better.
Why try to filter out a signal that *could* be pre-ignition, when it couldn't possibly be that, because no cylinder is in position to have that pre-ignition event occur?
Yes, there are other ways of determining which cylinder is firing without a crank position sender, but LH is not that advanced. That LH was pretty darn good for it's time, but comparing it to a distributor-less coil over plug with an ion feed-back loop just not sporting.
Finally, a little levity is a good thing. And it contained more than a grain of truth besides.
Greg
I see you have found Safeguard. Pretty darn good product for how long it has been around.
Lorenfb, though knock sensing does not *require* the use of a crank position sensor, or two knock sensors - it sure does work better.
Knock sensors have to determine the knock signal in, as I'm sure you're aware, a very noisy environment. In order to make that system as dicriminatory as possible, more data is better.
Why try to filter out a signal that *could* be pre-ignition, when it couldn't possibly be that, because no cylinder is in position to have that pre-ignition event occur?
Yes, there are other ways of determining which cylinder is firing without a crank position sender, but LH is not that advanced. That LH was pretty darn good for it's time, but comparing it to a distributor-less coil over plug with an ion feed-back loop just not sporting.
Finally, a little levity is a good thing. And it contained more than a grain of truth besides.
Greg
10-23-2006, 02:12 AM
#17
Three Wheelin'
I installed VEMS Genboard v3.3 that supports two knock sensors, on 86 Euro S.
I used second VR sensor on the flywheel (originally for diagnose purposes) as cam sync to to sequential but really, knock sensors generally don't need cam sync to work. But when one wants individual cylinder timing, it's absolutely necessary!
In VEMS, you have to calculate the resonance frequency of the 928 engine (depends on bore diam.)
It also has knock learn feature: you can make engine knock @idle (by increasing advance and richening mixture for the engine not to stop) and that way to know exact knock fequency.
I used second VR sensor on the flywheel (originally for diagnose purposes) as cam sync to to sequential but really, knock sensors generally don't need cam sync to work. But when one wants individual cylinder timing, it's absolutely necessary!
In VEMS, you have to calculate the resonance frequency of the 928 engine (depends on bore diam.)
It also has knock learn feature: you can make engine knock @idle (by increasing advance and richening mixture for the engine not to stop) and that way to know exact knock fequency.
10-23-2006, 02:42 AM
#18
Burning Brakes
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I assume VEMS is some variant of MS that I am not familiar with.
MS-II basically does it all (or you can add it).
However, like any standalone, MS is for those who are a bit more "techie" than the median.
MS-II basically does it all (or you can add it).
However, like any standalone, MS is for those who are a bit more "techie" than the median.
10-23-2006, 04:18 AM
#19
Three Wheelin'
Sry, but VEMS is NOT any MS variant. VEMS group was behind MegasquirtAVR, but that is ancient history.
Although it uses MegaTune, this MegaTune is similar only in graphics and has bunch of features implemented in VEMS (it's complete off the shelf product that already has all the features from the start).
Not to mention, VEMS has more powerful hardware than MS-II (support for almost all trigger types, lots of outputs etc).
BTW, I used stock 100-1 trigger wheel on 928S on install, tell me a stand-alone that can do this?
Although it uses MegaTune, this MegaTune is similar only in graphics and has bunch of features implemented in VEMS (it's complete off the shelf product that already has all the features from the start).
Not to mention, VEMS has more powerful hardware than MS-II (support for almost all trigger types, lots of outputs etc).
BTW, I used stock 100-1 trigger wheel on 928S on install, tell me a stand-alone that can do this?
Originally Posted by 2V4V
I assume VEMS is some variant of MS that I am not familiar with.
MS-II basically does it all (or you can add it).
However, like any standalone, MS is for those who are a bit more "techie" than the median.
MS-II basically does it all (or you can add it).
However, like any standalone, MS is for those who are a bit more "techie" than the median.
10-23-2006, 09:42 AM
#22
928 Collector
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Originally Posted by Raceboy
Sry, but VEMS is NOT any MS variant. VEMS group was behind MegasquirtAVR, but that is ancient history.
Although it uses MegaTune, this MegaTune is similar only in graphics and has bunch of features implemented in VEMS (it's complete off the shelf product that already has all the features from the start).
Not to mention, VEMS has more powerful hardware than MS-II (support for almost all trigger types, lots of outputs etc).
BTW, I used stock 100-1 trigger wheel on 928S on install, tell me a stand-alone that can do this?
Although it uses MegaTune, this MegaTune is similar only in graphics and has bunch of features implemented in VEMS (it's complete off the shelf product that already has all the features from the start).
Not to mention, VEMS has more powerful hardware than MS-II (support for almost all trigger types, lots of outputs etc).
BTW, I used stock 100-1 trigger wheel on 928S on install, tell me a stand-alone that can do this?
10-23-2006, 10:47 AM
#23
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Louie Ott: any way you can think of integrating the MAP input signal into tricking the SMT-6 into thinking you're on boost to retard timing via knock sensor? I bet it could be done....
10-23-2006, 12:43 PM
#24
Three Wheelin'
I made a topic about VEMS install on 928S 16v here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...highlight=vems
I used two knock sensors from 951. Calculated knock frequency and recorded the engine knocking sound with a soundcard (use 100nF capacitor when using knock sensor in mic input, but it depends on sensor).
Approximate knock frequency of the engine can be calculated easily by using this formula: frequency [kHz]=900/ (pi * 0.5 * <bore in mm>)
Luckily I haven't needed sensors help yet, but I installed them because the owner wants to twin-turbocharge the car this winter using 951 K26/8 turbos and they become handy with a stock engine and unexperienced owner
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...highlight=vems
I used two knock sensors from 951. Calculated knock frequency and recorded the engine knocking sound with a soundcard (use 100nF capacitor when using knock sensor in mic input, but it depends on sensor).
Approximate knock frequency of the engine can be calculated easily by using this formula: frequency [kHz]=900/ (pi * 0.5 * <bore in mm>)
Luckily I haven't needed sensors help yet, but I installed them because the owner wants to twin-turbocharge the car this winter using 951 K26/8 turbos and they become handy with a stock engine and unexperienced owner
Originally Posted by heinrich
Will you please PLEASE do a complete write-up on what you did and how, so others can do it also?
10-24-2006, 01:15 AM
#25
Burning Brakes
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Originally Posted by Raceboy
Sry, but VEMS is NOT any MS variant. VEMS group was behind MegasquirtAVR, but that is ancient history.
Although it uses MegaTune, this MegaTune is similar only in graphics and has bunch of features implemented in VEMS (it's complete off the shelf product that already has all the features from the start).
Not to mention, VEMS has more powerful hardware than MS-II (support for almost all trigger types, lots of outputs etc).
BTW, I used stock 100-1 trigger wheel on 928S on install, tell me a stand-alone that can do this?
Although it uses MegaTune, this MegaTune is similar only in graphics and has bunch of features implemented in VEMS (it's complete off the shelf product that already has all the features from the start).
Not to mention, VEMS has more powerful hardware than MS-II (support for almost all trigger types, lots of outputs etc).
BTW, I used stock 100-1 trigger wheel on 928S on install, tell me a stand-alone that can do this?
I'm not sure if the 100 tooth wheel code is available yet on MS-II either, but that's another one that's another one that's really easy to solve too.
But the important stuff - dual wideband, knock sensing and COP you can do with MS-II. What am I missing?
10-24-2006, 03:16 AM
#26
Three Wheelin'
You are missing two times more SRAM, two times more flash, a MUCH higher quality casing+connectors, powerful flyback that can control whatever injectors straight out of the box, direct ignition (8 high-power outputs and up to 16 logic level (active COPs)) and MANY freely programmable outputs. All of this has to be added to MS-II, but VEMS already has them and considering the price between two of them when MS-II has all those features added (some of them are not available), the tables turn to VEMS's favour. VEMS also supports programming straight from usual PS2 keyboard and LCD.
And more, recently they released firmware revision that allows overlapping dwell (it means 20 000rpm and more capable ECU on 8 cylinders). Really, I have played with Motec, Haltech, PerfectPower PRS, Tatech and MS, but it's hard to beat VEMS's cost effectiveness and quality.
And more, recently they released firmware revision that allows overlapping dwell (it means 20 000rpm and more capable ECU on 8 cylinders). Really, I have played with Motec, Haltech, PerfectPower PRS, Tatech and MS, but it's hard to beat VEMS's cost effectiveness and quality.
10-25-2006, 03:10 AM
#27
Burning Brakes
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I have worked with Haltech, Motec, and Bosch Motorsport. If everybody had the cash, I'd do nothing but Bosch Motorsport, it is simply the best.
I think you are a bit behind on what MS-II can do though. Regarding the case and connectors, the case has always been a very nice and rugged aluminum extrusion. Personally, I just build mine into Bosch EFI boxes and utilize Bosch connectors, that way it plugs right in to the factory harness, and looks stock to the untrained eye.
Agreed, the use of computer type connectors on MS was a bit cheesy, but anybody who wanted better connectors simply ran them instead.
Even the early MS got a flyback daughter board, and it handles low-z injectors just fine, out of the box. MS-II has that flyback on the board.
The SRAM and flash levels of the new Motorola chip are more than adequate for the task at hand, and personally I have found that too much memory leads to lazy programmers and feature creep. The more simple the code and the lighter the algorithm, the better the product works.
If for some reason you actually NEED all that memory on the Atmel, the code warrior is either lazy, or incompetant. If the code is optimized and you need all that memory, you have gone well beyond what you should be running with your engine management.
Most importantly for me, the Moto is an automotive grade processor. The Atmel in it's *best* spec, is only industrial grade. Tough enough for most installs, but not really designed for the automotive environment. I visit places where interior temps can exceed 140F and outside temps can drop below
-20F. I want the toughest chipset I can get.
Once again, not saying the Atmel doesn't work, but no OEM is running an ABS (or ANY other automotive system) on it. The Moto is in use by OEMs in hundreds of automotive apps.
MS-II doesn't yet have standard capability to run 8 COPs, but add a card and you get all sorts of I/O capabilities. Including COPs.
Not sure how the direct keyboard or LCD is a plus- if one can't afford a $50 (or less) used laptop to program their ECU, one really cannot afford aftermarket injection. Trying to set any system up with a keypad and screen borders on the ridiculous, and do you really want to try to tweak settings without seeing all the data on a laptop (or at least a palmtop) screen? I sure don't.
Not trying to start a pissing match, but VEMS is *hardly* a slam-dunk win compared to MS-II. Other than controlling 8 COPs directly off the board (I agree, that is nice to have on the board directly), I still see no advantages to VEMS.
But honestly, good luck. As always, as long as it works for you and your situation, then different strokes for different folks. It is good that people play with other solution sets, keeps the knowledge base growing.
Cheers,
Greg
I think you are a bit behind on what MS-II can do though. Regarding the case and connectors, the case has always been a very nice and rugged aluminum extrusion. Personally, I just build mine into Bosch EFI boxes and utilize Bosch connectors, that way it plugs right in to the factory harness, and looks stock to the untrained eye.
Agreed, the use of computer type connectors on MS was a bit cheesy, but anybody who wanted better connectors simply ran them instead.
Even the early MS got a flyback daughter board, and it handles low-z injectors just fine, out of the box. MS-II has that flyback on the board.
The SRAM and flash levels of the new Motorola chip are more than adequate for the task at hand, and personally I have found that too much memory leads to lazy programmers and feature creep. The more simple the code and the lighter the algorithm, the better the product works.
If for some reason you actually NEED all that memory on the Atmel, the code warrior is either lazy, or incompetant. If the code is optimized and you need all that memory, you have gone well beyond what you should be running with your engine management.
Most importantly for me, the Moto is an automotive grade processor. The Atmel in it's *best* spec, is only industrial grade. Tough enough for most installs, but not really designed for the automotive environment. I visit places where interior temps can exceed 140F and outside temps can drop below
-20F. I want the toughest chipset I can get.
Once again, not saying the Atmel doesn't work, but no OEM is running an ABS (or ANY other automotive system) on it. The Moto is in use by OEMs in hundreds of automotive apps.
MS-II doesn't yet have standard capability to run 8 COPs, but add a card and you get all sorts of I/O capabilities. Including COPs.
Not sure how the direct keyboard or LCD is a plus- if one can't afford a $50 (or less) used laptop to program their ECU, one really cannot afford aftermarket injection. Trying to set any system up with a keypad and screen borders on the ridiculous, and do you really want to try to tweak settings without seeing all the data on a laptop (or at least a palmtop) screen? I sure don't.
Not trying to start a pissing match, but VEMS is *hardly* a slam-dunk win compared to MS-II. Other than controlling 8 COPs directly off the board (I agree, that is nice to have on the board directly), I still see no advantages to VEMS.
But honestly, good luck. As always, as long as it works for you and your situation, then different strokes for different folks. It is good that people play with other solution sets, keeps the knowledge base growing.
Cheers,
Greg
10-25-2006, 05:14 AM
#28
Three Wheelin'
Programming with keyboard DOES NOT assume that one cannot afford a laptop, it's a comfortable feature. Because with laptop it's VERY incomfortable to tune by yourself, with an LCD and keyboard I've tuned couple of cars and I really like it.
And as for everything you said about connectors, features etc. They have to be ADDED to MS, in VEMS they are already there, you just take the unit and put it in the car, that's it! This is what separates VEMS from MS.
As for flyback. Flyback has to be powerful and precise, injector minimum opening time depends on that, and this determines the biggest injectors for specific engine.
And more, what one has to do when he wants to install MS on 928 with 2 WB02, 2 EGT's, 2 knock sensors and COP ignition? Build everything by himself. What it will cost? I don't know, but my guess is that not less than VEMS unit.
With VEMS unit, you just take the box and put it there, using whatever COPs you like, it supports everything (even IonSense is under testing right now). For me, time costs money and I have everything done in a single board with top quality assembly.
What I want to say is that MS is not a bad thing at all, but it's more to the guys who are DIY type, VEMS is complete product, ready for marketing.
Also not trying to make a "pissing" contest here I hope everyone else who read our discussion found something useful for himself!
And as for everything you said about connectors, features etc. They have to be ADDED to MS, in VEMS they are already there, you just take the unit and put it in the car, that's it! This is what separates VEMS from MS.
As for flyback. Flyback has to be powerful and precise, injector minimum opening time depends on that, and this determines the biggest injectors for specific engine.
And more, what one has to do when he wants to install MS on 928 with 2 WB02, 2 EGT's, 2 knock sensors and COP ignition? Build everything by himself. What it will cost? I don't know, but my guess is that not less than VEMS unit.
With VEMS unit, you just take the box and put it there, using whatever COPs you like, it supports everything (even IonSense is under testing right now). For me, time costs money and I have everything done in a single board with top quality assembly.
What I want to say is that MS is not a bad thing at all, but it's more to the guys who are DIY type, VEMS is complete product, ready for marketing.
Also not trying to make a "pissing" contest here
I hope everyone else who read our discussion found something useful for himself!
10-25-2006, 10:00 AM
#30
Three Wheelin'
All hardware (VEMS unit, WB, EGT, knock sensors, COPs, wiring harness, LCD display etc) cost for my 928S project around 1200$. Since each COP costs ~35$, it, will be around 1000$.