Two Euro S Throttle Bodies on supercharged engine?
02-10-2006, 03:07 AM
#16
Pro
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by blau928
Ian,
Thanks for the kind words of encouragement.
Thanks for the kind words of encouragement.
I am now using 6 Laminova 392mm cores, 3 for each bank of cylinders. The compressor is in the "V" of the engine, and now blows "upwards." (Old design blew down.) The air then turns right and left then goes through the IC and into the intake runner blocks. (The new injector blocks have been reconfigured to hold 2 injectors per cylinder, 1 for LH, and 1 for HKS AIC.) The charge then goes into the cylinders. Short, simple, and should be effective. (TBD)
Depending on compressor size, and piping size and length, your volume should not be that much more... In addition, you can mount the bypass valve before the Air 2 Air IC, and have the air recirc to the inlet side of the compressor and after the TB to put minimal stress on the compressor.
I am using an Opcon MX 422....
Also keep in mind that distance of the TB from the compressor also influences hrottle tesponse, as well as the length and volume of system from the TB to the Intake port..
I used the following logic... If heat is caused by compression of the air, which is mainly from the compressor, but also increased by bending pipes, then shortest path after the IC to the intake port would minimize this.
I used the following logic... If heat is caused by compression of the air, which is mainly from the compressor, but also increased by bending pipes, then shortest path after the IC to the intake port would minimize this.
Interesting about the bi compressor engine... I think it's very interesting, as the heat is less compared to the airflow... I have some ideas for a V8 with 2 compressors as well....! 
Clearance was also a BIG issue on the 928.. I refuse to cut the bonnet open to fit the compressor system.........
I will post pixx when done.. I can email you jpegs of some parts, and maybe a sketch later. Until all the CAD is done, I will not be machining anything else, as the system will be built as an assembley in CAD to ensure fitment, then the remaining parts will be milled.. The IC's are already done as well as the cooling modifications.. I have also had to make a new radiator, as the old one was a bit too big for comfort.. (I'm using laminova oil coolers as well.....)
Funny you are from Norway.. A very good friend of mine had the record for pike fishing in Trondheim.. 
Ian
02-10-2006, 11:29 AM
#17
Pro
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by JEC_31
As far as I know (Corky Bell's books + much internet lurking), the excellent low-range response of the Whipple means than even at low RPMs you will easily be filling the intercooler and all piping nearly instantly with fully compressed air. It's not even likely that the pressure drop after the IC will be drastic enough to hurt. This means throttle response is not an issue, as soon as you crack it the boosted air will be slamming into your combustion chambers! Hopefully with plenty of atomised fuel...
Twin 80mm throttle bodies just gives you an immense volume-flow potential. Perhaps more hp than the drivetrain can withstand.
Man, Ian, every time you add something to this project the predicted end result gets bigger!
Twin 80mm throttle bodies just gives you an immense volume-flow potential. Perhaps more hp than the drivetrain can withstand.
Man, Ian, every time you add something to this project the predicted end result gets bigger!
I believe my first post on this list when I just had bought my shark was something like this: " Where is the chip on my car..?" Ha ha!
02-10-2006, 12:57 PM
#18
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Monterey Peninsula, CA
Posts: 2,374
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes
on
12 Posts
Tony,
Thanks, I'll keep you in the loop..
Ian,
The design is similar to yours, but has many less bends... Move the IC closer to the compressor, and eliminate all those bends.. You then get a variation of my system..
I too was waiting on the 500mm Opcon cores... They told me they are not ready for production, I could have 392mm cores, or they could combine two cores with clamps for me... I chose to use the 392mm cores, as I would lose about 50mm of fins on the "joined" 500mm cores. In addition, space was also an issue.
As far as the IC core supports, Laminova sells center extrusions for the core sizes.. They look like "I" Beams, with curved sides, and the cores are held by these supports. These have to be precision machined at the ends to +/- .001 inch for proper seal to the end cases where the water flows into the core. I have the entire case O- Ringed as well at all jointrs for good seal. Of course it would be better to cast it, but I am not planning on a production run, just a unit for myself, and if someone else twists my arm hard enough after I am done, maybe I will build another few sets..
As far as the water flow through the cores, The water will flow in one direction through the cores. I think this will be better than flowing in one and out two on the same side. As the engine is offset, I planned on inflow on the side with the short distance from the compressor, and out the long distance. There are space considerations as well, and I may try to make the packaging a priority here. Each cooler bank will have an AN-12 water line that is fed by a common AN-16 supply from the IC Pump... (140L/min capacity minimum) Flow velocity through the core is very important per Laminova..
I think my friend still has the record for pike... I can ask him..
Yo can send me the Swedish article, I have Swedish friends who can translate..
Thanks, I'll keep you in the loop..
Ian,
The design is similar to yours, but has many less bends... Move the IC closer to the compressor, and eliminate all those bends.. You then get a variation of my system..
I too was waiting on the 500mm Opcon cores... They told me they are not ready for production, I could have 392mm cores, or they could combine two cores with clamps for me... I chose to use the 392mm cores, as I would lose about 50mm of fins on the "joined" 500mm cores. In addition, space was also an issue.
As far as the IC core supports, Laminova sells center extrusions for the core sizes.. They look like "I" Beams, with curved sides, and the cores are held by these supports. These have to be precision machined at the ends to +/- .001 inch for proper seal to the end cases where the water flows into the core. I have the entire case O- Ringed as well at all jointrs for good seal. Of course it would be better to cast it, but I am not planning on a production run, just a unit for myself, and if someone else twists my arm hard enough after I am done, maybe I will build another few sets..
As far as the water flow through the cores, The water will flow in one direction through the cores. I think this will be better than flowing in one and out two on the same side. As the engine is offset, I planned on inflow on the side with the short distance from the compressor, and out the long distance. There are space considerations as well, and I may try to make the packaging a priority here. Each cooler bank will have an AN-12 water line that is fed by a common AN-16 supply from the IC Pump... (140L/min capacity minimum) Flow velocity through the core is very important per Laminova..
I think my friend still has the record for pike... I can ask him..
Yo can send me the Swedish article, I have Swedish friends who can translate..
02-10-2006, 01:11 PM
#19
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Monterey Peninsula, CA
Posts: 2,374
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes
on
12 Posts
some SC system parts
Tony & Ian,
A couple of CAD parts to see... for now....
The Accufab 1650 CFM TB sits on the oval shaped opening,and the MAF mounts directly above the TB...
Enjoy the view..
A couple of CAD parts to see... for now....
The Accufab 1650 CFM TB sits on the oval shaped opening,and the MAF mounts directly above the TB...
Enjoy the view..
02-10-2006, 01:43 PM
#21
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: DFW
Posts: 1,641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ian928
Thank you for your neverending support! I have been lurking and talking about this supercharger setup for years now, learning from others and chatting with people on this list. I now feel I know enough to start DOING something! Do you have any plans for your car?
I believe my first post on this list when I just had bought my shark was something like this: " Where is the chip on my car..?" Ha ha!
I believe my first post on this list when I just had bought my shark was something like this: " Where is the chip on my car..?" Ha ha!
You are quite welcome. I too have been planning a similar "let's get insane horspower" project, but have had a few minor setbacks - such the selling of my 86 928S awhile back, and am still Porsche-less and miserable about it.
Now I'm s-l-o-w-l-y saving up for either an 83-84 US-spec 16V (non-interference + low compression, a forgiving combination for the first-timer) to apply some simple forced induction to. This will not happen anytime soon, financially speaking.
This board is not only the greatest for sharing information, but for the high quality of such information and the amazing helpfulness of it's members. I'm proud to be a part of it.
My first post was, I think, about the horrible doom-approaching clicking noise from the engine. It was just old sticky lifters- ha! What a newbie.
Nice custom parts, blau928!
02-12-2006, 04:36 PM
#22
Pro
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by blau928
Tony & Ian,
A couple of CAD parts to see... for now....
The Accufab 1650 CFM TB sits on the oval shaped opening,and the MAF mounts directly above the TB...
Enjoy the view..
A couple of CAD parts to see... for now....
The Accufab 1650 CFM TB sits on the oval shaped opening,and the MAF mounts directly above the TB...
Enjoy the view..
I look forward to see how it turns out!
I sent you an e-mail!
04-02-2006, 07:58 PM
#23
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 481
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ian,
Good choice you made to go with a Whipple, which is without a doubt the best SC overall.
I'm planning on using a new 140ax on my 993 soon.
It should be able to handle 6-7 psi with fuel enrichment, timing adjustments, and a large intercooler on the stock 11.3 to 1 comp engine.
That should yield about 400-430 crank hp.
I can't wait
Good choice you made to go with a Whipple, which is without a doubt the best SC overall.
I'm planning on using a new 140ax on my 993 soon.
It should be able to handle 6-7 psi with fuel enrichment, timing adjustments, and a large intercooler on the stock 11.3 to 1 comp engine.
That should yield about 400-430 crank hp.
I can't wait
04-02-2006, 08:06 PM
#24
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Boosting an 11.3:1 engine will be a challange. I hope it stays together.
How are you planning to run a large intercooler if you are using a positive displacement supercharger?
How are you planning to run a large intercooler if you are using a positive displacement supercharger?
Last edited by Imo000; 04-02-2006 at 11:22 PM.
04-02-2006, 08:42 PM
#25
Inventor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
A little OT, but I was just Googling, and saw this: M112 for Mercedes
04-02-2006, 11:02 PM
#26
Inventor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I'm guessing the above is what DR @ 928Spec is doing to the 16V SC, if he's using the stock runners...
04-03-2006, 05:36 PM
#28
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: DFW
Posts: 1,641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by PorKen
A little OT, but I was just Googling, and saw this: M112 for Mercedes
[url=http://www.myhps.com/]
[url=http://www.myhps.com/]
Notice the nice fuel rails tucked close to the outsides of the runners.
Dang it, these water-air-ICs are getting more trick all the time.
Good packaging solutions!
04-03-2006, 06:26 PM
#29
Sharkaholic
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Wow Ian, your using a 3.3 liter Whipple? That is massive!! I have a 2.3 liter that was on my '86 auto, which through Andy K's system developed 403rwhp.
What model 928 are you putting this on?
What model 928 are you putting this on?
04-04-2006, 05:46 AM
#30
Pro
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Shane
Wow Ian, your using a 3.3 liter Whipple? That is massive!! I have a 2.3 liter that was on my '86 auto, which through Andy K's system developed 403rwhp.
What model 928 are you putting this on?
What model 928 are you putting this on?
The 3.3l really is too wide to fit in the valley with the 32V heads (it fitted nice with the 16V heads that i first considered using) but I will see what I can do. In fact, I may just place it on the side, blowing to the passenger side, as all I need is the outlet to go forward to the A/A intercooler.
