puyi

Hi all,

I search for a while pictures of a dry sump that actually run on a 928. I wonder how original pump is used and plugged to become the pressure pump.

Thanks for all

Puyi

stuartph

Puyi


The pace drysump uses the cars oil pump to pull oil from the tank, then the scavenge pump draws the oil from the pan and pumps it to the tank

puyi

Hi Stuart,

I understand the scheme of th dry sump. I saw pictures of Lindsey racing dry sump for 944 and they use a 2 stage pump that work as pressure and scavenge pump. But for the use of the internal pump as pressure pump, It should have an oil hose from the tank plugged in the origonal oil pump. I wonder how it is mounted.

As I read your answer, I suppose you are to mount a pace dry sump, that one sells by gantspeed. I'm interesting in following the process of installation on your 928. How did you manage to install the tank?

regards

Puyi

Mike Simard

In my new dry sump pan I have the inlet coming in the side of the pan where it goes to the original inlet in the block.
It sounds simple but the logistics were tricky to have it be easy to install and reliable.
The old setup of a machined fitting poking up through the dry sump pan and into the block inlet was much easier but I never liked the fitting poking downward.

stuartph

Puyi

If you look at the big red cap that is the port that goes straight into the cars oil pump, the smaller blue ones are scavange to the pace pump and the smaller red is the oil drain from the supercharger.

My car will have the tank in the back of the car in the battery box, which is being modified , but the tank will be slightly higher than the sump, then a cover will be placed over it

Cheburator

What amazes me is that I have written running reports about the last 7500miles which my car has covered while dry-humped

The search function is crap, but with a bit of effort you can find them

What else do you need to know?

Currently the car is running the following set up:

Oil filler neck - blanked off with a custom cnc machined plate
Cam cover breathers - blanked off
Throttle body breathing inlets - blanked off

All engine breathing is being done at the back, where I have a 5US gl tank and a small catch tank attached to it. No idea whether I am pulling vacuum thru the engine. So far the block and all the obvious places where a leak could have sprung from are bone dry.

Have done 4hrs of racing with that set up on a heavily modded GTS lump and the catch tank is bone dry and empty too. No noticeable use of oil, system is filled with 15ltr of Castrol Edge 10W60 "Specially formulated for M engines".

Tuomo, I can produce a complete dry sump system for the 928 - but it would be utilising the inferior welded pan - I have two sitting in my garage. Yes, I would use the pace pump as it is rather good and I know the system works on my car. But you are missing a point - why would you want me to supply you with lines and a tank - I bought my tank off evilbay for $75 and Pirtek made my lines. Dr Nick, who was my parther in crime on this little project of ours used PACE to supply him with a fancy tank for $500 - he did not like the fact that my fancy Moroso tank came off a dirt buggy, hence the price. Nick also used fancy aluminium fittings, which took ages to make, while I was more concerned with going racing. Lasltly, now I am thinking about relocating the tank where my washer bottle is - buying the pan, pump and pulleys gives me the freedom to do whatever, unlike if I were to buy a complete kit.

I am more than happy to offer pan, pump and pulleys kit at a price cheaper than pace.

Alex

slate blue

OK I got my wife back after a trip away and she brought me a present. I received the oil tank I bought in the UK. The big hole is the bottom.



I started to section it to;
1. Understand it.
2. Understand the method of construction
3. Dismantle and prepare it for the 928.
4. Weigh it

The goal here is to build a dry sump that one performs to a standard that boosts power by creating a vacuum and clearing the windage, i.e a Nascar standard.

Do this by not adding any or minimal weight over what a standard wet sump 928 engine might weigh. It is very easy to add weight, not so easy to lose it and you only have to watch a few episodes of Top Gear to see what heavy cars preform like, even when super powerful cars like the Brabus 65 SL with over 800 ft lbs of torque are pretty slow around the track. Also as many of you know I am very conscience of the fragility of the gearbox so less weight is always better especially when taken off the very front of the vehicle.

I am sorry that these pics don't show a lot, believe me it is very hard to understand even when it is in your hand. I will try to explain what I think I understand.

This is the bottom of the tank and this is the main oil diffuser. There is also a drain which also drain both chambers. The two chambers are not separated.



The red grommet is at the top of the tank, you will notice that the pipes are made from carbon.



This is the location of the breather tank, there is two outlets at the bottom of the breather, there is however 3 pipes (altogether) at the bottom of those outlets. You will notice that there is another opening with a small bolt. This is connected to the bottom of one of the breather outlets and there is another opening in the very right hand side near the rubber grommet. This is the lower opening seen in the first pic above the big outlet at the bottom off the tank. I think that well I don't know but why has this opening the only bolt? Maybe pressure is in the line?



You can see there is a number of chambers inside this tank. I have no idea how they work.



Again more carbon pipes and chambers. Also there is a opening at the top of the tank and that is on the left in the pic. That is an opening that just goes straight to the top of the tank and there is another on the other side of the tank however it is a different style fitting, i.e not identical but similar.



The total weight of both tanks is 1.8 kgs and if you are wondering why they use Ti and not aluminium where the hot areas are, well Ti has the same expansion rate as the carbon. All in all there is 8 openings, 2 are for the breather, 1 is the outlet. Another is a big pipe and probably an inlet. The rest are a mystery.

If anybody reckons they can work it out I can post more pics.

Greg

GlenL

So there are 9 connections? Crazy.

Some are for oil cooling? Or pre-heating?

I figure it really needs three: supply, outlet and vent. Maybe one is a return line from the pressure regulator. That oil would come back "clean" so no need to send through the separator section. Add one for the exhaust from a vacuum pump.

So....

Two pairs of oil cooler lines
One supply from scavenging pump
One supply from the vacuum pump
One return from pressure regulator
One vent
One supply to the engine

(At least that's my guesses)

What's the origin of the part?

slate blue

Ok I can shed some light on this, maybe not perfect but more than before. The two bungs or openings above the main feed in are, one an inspection opening. The other is for the oil level sensor which I just bought. It was second hand but will helpful monitoring the oil level in the tank while the engine is running, it is a $500 odd dollar sensor new, what a fancy dipstick.

Here's a schematic drawing I made and I numbered the pipes and swirl tanks.



If you go back to the first pic above the main outlet or number 4 there is number 3 to which I believe there is suction applied. There may be no vacuum achieved but the oil that is in excess of the main swirl tank and any air vapor will be sucked away. The excessive pressure can just vent out the breather.

The confusing part is the valve or moving piece in the breather, it has a bleed hole that obviously restricts the vacuum and its size must have been carefully considered and probably relates to the level of vacuum applied too.

I believe the breather is vented via a PCV and sometimes they overfill the cars and a lot of blue smoke is discharged, so if this was connected you wouldn't get the blue smoke. What I do think this means is that the PCV system needs to be designed carefully with the intake. I suppose racers just vent to atmosphere.

All in all it seem a very thorough system to stop oil getting out the breather. I wonder how they do it on road cars, like the Ferraris?

Also I contacted the guys that sell the CF for the tank and the glue, prepegs are much easier to use these days and don't go off so quick but require hi temp curing in a controlled manner. I hope to use a baking oven for powder coating.
Needs to be under 200C. I will use the same material in the turret and the same glue for the turret and vents from 3 M for the adhesive. These glues are getting really good.

Greg

slate blue

By Glen L

Honda RA108 F1 car 2008 MY

Greg

slate blue

Some light was shed today when the second tank turned up with the valve that has been a confusing factor fell out! It shows that there is no special function, it is just a bleed valve.



So to me that means opening 3 does have a suction applied to it and it is just a sophisticated way to ensure there is no oil escaping from the breather.

Also the sensor came today and it is a very long but light sensor, around 400 mm long with 5 wires. I will investigate this, maybe it is a temperature sensor as well as oil level sensor?

Greg

GlenL

Keep posting this info. I'm fascinated into quietude. (...which is odd.)

Ducman82

how is the tank oriented in the car?

slate blue

The oil tank and the Laminova coolers go into the guard recess on your drivers side, on the other side there will be a motorcycle radiator to act as a heat exchanger which will also feed the gearbox exchanger. They fit behind these grills.



Greg

slate blue

I have been giving some thought piston squirters and valve spring squirters, this may be of interest to the racers on the board. It obviously comes more into play with high HP engines and high RPM engines. So we only have a few squirter blocks available from the factory and these are not necessarily the best either with only one jet. Most high end race engines have 4 and F1 engines have 10.

It is also more important to cool the exhaust side of the piston, God knows where the Porsche squirter points? Most squirters use a pad attachment off an oil gallery, the valve springs squirters can use a spray bar or a screw in pedestal. Joe Gibbs uses this system and it sprays at two levels. I know from spring manufacturers how important they regard good cooling when the lift of the cam increases from a very low level where the standard cams of the 928 are. To higher cam lifts like 13 to 16 mm.

Just thinking out loud here before I go much further, does the huge problems the 928 has with windage in the crankcase and the heads of the 4V engine at least negate this cooling problem? You would think it could be helping but normally when you want to cool things you spray it and then remove the fluid and then run it into the cooler. That doesn't happen with the 928 engine, the oil can get super heated and whipped up. This is contradictory to what Gibbs says.

JGR says you need to get the oil out fast. They do this by dividing the crankcase and using a 6 stage pump. I recently bought one of their dry sump pumps and plenty of other stuff has come from them, when they changed to Toyota engines and got rid of the all the Chevy stuff.



The dry sump pumps (Auto Verdi) are hugely powerful (light too at 4.5 kgs with pulley) and can pull up to 20" of vacuum or 2/3s of an atmosphere. The rods need to be drilled for oiling, These pumps or pumps capable of the same vacuum have increased the volumetric efficiency of the engine by over 2% for a power increase in the 4% range. So a win win.

I will do away with the factory oil pump and I have utilized the basics of the 928 bedplate design to hopefully scavenge effectively. It will use a solid dowled plate with no gasket as the sump. It should add strength and be no heavier then the standard sump maybe a couple kgs lighter. So it is not a Nascar copy as we don't have their depth. It is much more F1 derived, as such the sump will have sheet metal curved around the rotating assembly, so a effectively a half circle but it is more complex than that as it needs to pick up the oil but that is the principle. Here's an F1 sump to give you an idea of what I mean.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FERRARI-FORMUL...#ht_500wt_1156

Also I am discussing this in the cause of longevity, I don't like failures and given I don't have millions for R&D so I will run on the conservative side, so when the piston gets too hot, the engine can detonate and cause much damage, squirters are well regarded in this area. So you can stop detonation and also if the pistons get too hot the rings and ring lands can get damaged, especially if you are running aftermarket pistons and rings. I.E different materials and thicknesses, the Porsche stuff is extremely good for longevity in a street engine but too heavy and weak higher revs used in racing engines but perfect up to 6,500 rpm. However, I don't know how many supercharged engines have given up the ghost with broken pistons as an example.

What the race teams do, is to optimize the cooling jets this is done via a hardness test on the pistons, various parts of the piston get hotter and thus softer and are given more cooling spray.

The other factor is oil viscosity and the make up of the oil. Joe Gibbs race team decided to develop oil as they do as many things in house as possible, much like an F1 team, you cant trust the outside help, so to speak. They were prompted because of the reduction of ZDDP in mainstream and race oils.

They started in colaberation with the original developers of ZDDP. It took a number of years and millions of dollars of R&D to work it out and they did this for themselves and they decided they would sell it to make some money, it is an extremely well financed team, much like an F1 team. In the open engines or unlimited unrestricted engines they run 0w20. What they say is they are getting less friction and better cooling than with thicker oils.

I have often wondered about that, not that I want to go there, but what they do is analysis the power and wear properties and these engines have to do decent distances flat out, i.e wide open throttle for long periods, one of the engine tests was to run the Daytona 500 in simulation three times, it survived, that is a long way with an 850 hp engine. The restricted engines run a 0w0. I have great abreviated their testing btw. So are the engines getting less wear in races on 0w20 than on 20w50 or 15w50?

Another thing was they said a mineral oil would not last one race and that it couldn't be used for cooling like the synthetic, as soon as it would hit the piston it would break down according to JGR. They also said don't coat the bearings as the clearance will change in a short period of time, Uncoated are much more consistent.

Another interesting tidbit was that certain DLC coatings wouldn't last with their oil, it appears that they tailored their oil so much that only certain coatings would last but they would stay in great shape.

You can buy their oil Joe Gibbs Driven in 20w50, in general it was a very interesting article focused on oiling the 2009 Toyota Nascar engine and they certainly shared a lot of info, I have given you guys a short summary. The link to article in full is below well worth the read. The rest of the Joe Gibbs Driven website is worth a visit too.

http://www.joegibbsdriven.com/traini...ch/JGR_RET.pdf