Alternative Fuelled 928
02-15-2005, 10:16 PM
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Alternative Fuelled 928
Here is an exchange I had with a fellow Rennlister. He suggested I put it out here to get some comments.
Original e-mail to Dan the Pod Guy at Portia's PArts
I was speaking about me converting my Toyota Truck to CNG or LNG, but the 928 came up in the discussion.
----------------
Hi Dan, I enjoyed reading your post ... I thought you might like to read what I wrote recently in my regular hang-out, the alt.war.vietnam new group .... I still have not given up on the idea of conversion to compressed natural gas, just occupied with getting my 78 Euro 928 on the road:
------- Posted to alt.war.vietnam in a thread titled "So Far, So Good", relating to the cost of gasoline in the USA:
Hey Group,
Personally, I like the idea of $10 a gallon gasoline. When the market drives up the cost of conventional fuel, alternate forms will surge to the top of availability.
I'll give you an example. Last year I looked into the conversion of my pick up truck to natural gas. The local gas company has a fleet of trucks which are fueled on NG.
You may be very sure that it is EXCEEDING DIFFICULT to find ANY information on conversion of a vehicle to an alternate fuel. I didn't just use computer searches and go to web sites, but physically visited Nashville Gas and talked to their chief mechanic who was trained by Ford to service their NG vehicles. I'll discuss why "you can't get there from here" in a moment.
There is a fuel metering appliance -- actually a metal enclosure about the size of a beer keg. That holds the pressure conversion and pump system.
The appliance is placed at your driveway or (theoretically) inside the garage, and the hose is connected to the fuel port on the vehicle. The fuel port uses a kind of space age locking gadget that has a set of gaskets and locks and stuff. The appliance has a sensor to start and stop the gas pumping into the vehicle tank when the pressure is right, or if for whatever reason the connection breaks. The appliance is hooked to the home's gas line, just like the dryer, the water heater and the HVAC system.
The vehicle uses a set of Fiberglas tanks, which look like big scuba tanks; they are actually pressure vessels and hold enough gas to run the truck for about 450 miles. They measure about the size of an army foot locker and sit in the bed of the truck behind the back window. They can also be installed under the truck. The tanks are connected by a stainless steel flex hose to the gaseous fuel intake device, which is in the engine compartment and which feeds the NG to the engine's intake manifold. The other end of the tanks are connected to the fueling port.
The trucks which Nashville Gas have are duel fuel vehicles, they have a gasoline tank and the NG tanks. The mechanic demonstrated to me how when flipping a switch on the dash, the relay kicks over between gasoline and NG.
The engine didn't even hiccup, matter of fact, the only noticeable effect of the switch-over was a slight change in the idle speed. The mech explained that when the NG begins feeding, the engine computer chip senses the lower combustion component and increases the idle by about 100 RPM to compensate.
The mech said that the trucks get about 25 mpg with NG and about 15 mpg with gasoline. He said that the NG product burns very clean and the trucks which have never been run on gasoline are still using their original spark plugs at over 100,000 miles.
The NG engine is "de-rated" meaning that the actual produced horsepower is reduced by about 10 to 20% (depending upon driving conditions). But with a big-block truck engine, the mech told me that it does not matter at all, even with the F450 trucks whch pull backhoe trailers.
OK, so we are already saying "Dude! where do we get my car converted?"
Hah. Consider these gems which I discovered in my investigations:
1. Our local community will not issue a permit to install "an automotive fuel station, tank, storage, appliance, pump, or other device for the private fueling of a motor vehicle, unless said vehicle is a farm-only license vehicle and the property upon which operated is an agricultural zoned property in excess of 10 acres .... " (it goes on and on, but the bottom line is you can't do it legally). This ordinance I found out dates to the 1970's and the gas crisis of 1973, when the John Denver's of the world were planting huge fuel tanks in their mansion's back yards and having commercial fuel deliveries made to avoid the gas station lines. I got this from a very good source that when a music star (now deceased, but still extremely famous) applied for a permit to put in such a tank, one of the Williamson County boys decided that "thet feller got to stand in line lak ever body else .. why pretty soon ever (racial epithet #1) and (racial epithet #2) in the place will want ta do it! Jehosephat, ya give 'em an inch and they take a mile", hence the ban on home-fueling. To get such a rule removed in our county requires a referendum vote.
2. Toyota, the manufacturer of my truck (a 1996 T-100 SR4) gave me some interesting replies to requests for information. First, I called the local dealer and inquired about gaseous conversion. They Went: "... like we don't do that and it can't be done and you void the warranty and if you try it we are gonna call the police and the FBI and Homeland Security on you and the EPA and man are you crazy?" Got the picture? Next step was Toyota USA.
Their response was the same only in more polite language " ... no, and furthermore, no ...
The mech at Nashville Gas had said that conversion is pretty simple, actually, if there is already a gaseous fuel delivery device made for the vehicle. That is basically a bolt-on that pipes NG to a solenoid operated fuel switcher so you can go between NG and Gasoline. The Ford engines are factory made that way, so it isn't even an issue.
Modification of existing engines, he said, might involve simply connecting an NG device to the intake manifold and then the vehicle's computer chip would take over. He opined that it would cool to experiment, particularly if I wanted to leave my truck with him and his boys for a few days. I begged off of that since he had a glint in his eye, sort of like Pimp Your Ride XYBixcut or what ever his name is.
3. The EPA takes a draconian approach. It is, of course, a federal offense, to tamper with anything to do with the environmental system of a vehicle. Basically, my calls with the EPA's 800 number resulted in "you will be sent to prison for the rest of your natural life and gang-raped by Aryan Nation Lifers if you do anything like that without a license from the EPA".
Getting a license is not really a problem, however, it only requires a $100,000 bond, a corporation, a physical "doing business" presence, a federal application process, including various forms and other documents, and an EPA approval process, which the nice lady told me usually goes pretty fast, only taking about an average of 18 months.
4. The state of Tennessee has some interesting rules about "transportation of Hazardous Compressed Flammable Gasses". Basically, if you carry any cylinders of compressed gas --- with the exception of barbeque cylinders -- , containing more than 100 cubic feet of gas, you are required to have a state Department of Transportation permit, the fee for which is $1200 per year plus proof of insurance and a $1,500,000 bond. You are required to display the DOT hazard panels on all four visible corners of the vehicle and you are required to possess a Class "X" driving license endorsement (hazardous materials transporter). Of course, you are not permitted to travel on any route with is marked as prohibiting dangerous transportation and you must stop at all railroad crossings, and be named Bubba or Cooter.
The list goes on, but that's the gist.
Well, that was as far as I got ... I did find out that if I did purchase a Ford F150 truck, I could get it will all the bells and whistles of a conventionally fueled truck, and not lack for any optional equipment. The local Ford dealer said it would be no problem to order one up for me, of course there would be a $2,500 added charge for the "Special Order" and it would take about 2 to 4 months.
Need I extrapolate any longer on why ordinary people like you and me just can't get motor vehicles with alternative energy sources? Of course, I see this changing in the next few years IF the cost of gasoline goes up. The higher the gas prices the more alternatives will be available. The only fallacy it that almost ALL of the alternative energy materials generate pollution and require energy expenditures during their manufacture.
There doesn't seem to be any Free Lunch here.
------------------
Reply:
Dave,
If you have not done so please send this over to Renn List. I am sure they will appreciate your efforts.
I was in Seattle recently and noticed the cab from the airport had a large tank mounted in the trunk. I asked the cab driver about it and got the story. The cab is running liquefied natural gas. It was converted as part of a now defunct Federal subsidized program. With the subsidy the cost of fuel was about 25% of the cost of gasoline. When the federal government dumped the program the state of Washington picked it up and cut the subsidy in half thus doubling the price of fuel. The state is set to phase out the subsidy and prices will float to just below the cost of gasoline.
The catch with the set up was there were only two fueling stations - one at the cab garage and one at the airport. The tank due to weight holds less than the normal gas tank - about 8 gallons so even with the improved fuel economy the range is limited. There was no dual switch over and putting in a larger capacity tank took up too much space and added weight to the car.
When I was in Europe a few years ago we saw many cars running GPL - liquefied Natural gas. The most common conversions were Volvos and most of the stations on the main highways carried fuel.
There was an improvement in mileage and a lower cost of operation. Still last time I was in Italy in 2004 I saw less of both the GPL and Diesel. The preference was for gasoline and higher horsepower. We rented a Jag X type 2.5 liter and got many positive comments everywhere we went.
I really like the hybrid. If I was to make a conversion on the 928 I would replace the automatic transmission with an electric motor and then replace the V8 with a Highlander V6 set up as a hybrid. Done right you could smoke the average 928 and still get better gas mileage - probably in the 30 to 35 MPG range. As newer and more efficient power plants evolve they could be retrofitted. The Highlander is going to be a big seller for Toyota.
The differential on the 928 separates from the transmission and the space required for the transmission would easily accommodate a fair sized electric motor. Since the gears in the automatic differential are changeable you would have the option of playing around with the best set up - maybe event go with some 3.11s. Toyota has already done the paper work so there should be no red tape to cut through or extra licenses to obtain. Even the smog check would fly since it is a gas engine approved by the EPA. Obtaining a wrecked Highlander once they are in production should be cost effective and the sale of the other parts could help offset some of the costs. The only big deal would be adapters to make the whole thing work and maybe a little extra boost to get some extra horses.
Dan the Pod Guy
Portia's Parts
My reply:
Hey Dan, thanks very much for the info ... Man I never thought about the Highlander Option (now that sounds like a military secret operations ... "Right, Sar'nt Major! Prepare the Troops for The Highlander Option ... Make certain their Kits include the usual Timing Belt and Water Pump Replacements ... Dismiss! .... "
I think I saw something on Rennlist about a hybrid 928 .. Seems that the purists there were shocked (sorry about that pun). You know, my 928 (Kryptonite) is in pieces, and I am enough of a tinkering wrench that I am starting to think .... "
Original e-mail to Dan the Pod Guy at Portia's PArts
I was speaking about me converting my Toyota Truck to CNG or LNG, but the 928 came up in the discussion.
----------------
Hi Dan, I enjoyed reading your post ... I thought you might like to read what I wrote recently in my regular hang-out, the alt.war.vietnam new group .... I still have not given up on the idea of conversion to compressed natural gas, just occupied with getting my 78 Euro 928 on the road:
------- Posted to alt.war.vietnam in a thread titled "So Far, So Good", relating to the cost of gasoline in the USA:
Hey Group,
Personally, I like the idea of $10 a gallon gasoline. When the market drives up the cost of conventional fuel, alternate forms will surge to the top of availability.
I'll give you an example. Last year I looked into the conversion of my pick up truck to natural gas. The local gas company has a fleet of trucks which are fueled on NG.
You may be very sure that it is EXCEEDING DIFFICULT to find ANY information on conversion of a vehicle to an alternate fuel. I didn't just use computer searches and go to web sites, but physically visited Nashville Gas and talked to their chief mechanic who was trained by Ford to service their NG vehicles. I'll discuss why "you can't get there from here" in a moment.
There is a fuel metering appliance -- actually a metal enclosure about the size of a beer keg. That holds the pressure conversion and pump system.
The appliance is placed at your driveway or (theoretically) inside the garage, and the hose is connected to the fuel port on the vehicle. The fuel port uses a kind of space age locking gadget that has a set of gaskets and locks and stuff. The appliance has a sensor to start and stop the gas pumping into the vehicle tank when the pressure is right, or if for whatever reason the connection breaks. The appliance is hooked to the home's gas line, just like the dryer, the water heater and the HVAC system.
The vehicle uses a set of Fiberglas tanks, which look like big scuba tanks; they are actually pressure vessels and hold enough gas to run the truck for about 450 miles. They measure about the size of an army foot locker and sit in the bed of the truck behind the back window. They can also be installed under the truck. The tanks are connected by a stainless steel flex hose to the gaseous fuel intake device, which is in the engine compartment and which feeds the NG to the engine's intake manifold. The other end of the tanks are connected to the fueling port.
The trucks which Nashville Gas have are duel fuel vehicles, they have a gasoline tank and the NG tanks. The mechanic demonstrated to me how when flipping a switch on the dash, the relay kicks over between gasoline and NG.
The engine didn't even hiccup, matter of fact, the only noticeable effect of the switch-over was a slight change in the idle speed. The mech explained that when the NG begins feeding, the engine computer chip senses the lower combustion component and increases the idle by about 100 RPM to compensate.
The mech said that the trucks get about 25 mpg with NG and about 15 mpg with gasoline. He said that the NG product burns very clean and the trucks which have never been run on gasoline are still using their original spark plugs at over 100,000 miles.
The NG engine is "de-rated" meaning that the actual produced horsepower is reduced by about 10 to 20% (depending upon driving conditions). But with a big-block truck engine, the mech told me that it does not matter at all, even with the F450 trucks whch pull backhoe trailers.
OK, so we are already saying "Dude! where do we get my car converted?"
Hah. Consider these gems which I discovered in my investigations:
1. Our local community will not issue a permit to install "an automotive fuel station, tank, storage, appliance, pump, or other device for the private fueling of a motor vehicle, unless said vehicle is a farm-only license vehicle and the property upon which operated is an agricultural zoned property in excess of 10 acres .... " (it goes on and on, but the bottom line is you can't do it legally). This ordinance I found out dates to the 1970's and the gas crisis of 1973, when the John Denver's of the world were planting huge fuel tanks in their mansion's back yards and having commercial fuel deliveries made to avoid the gas station lines. I got this from a very good source that when a music star (now deceased, but still extremely famous) applied for a permit to put in such a tank, one of the Williamson County boys decided that "thet feller got to stand in line lak ever body else .. why pretty soon ever (racial epithet #1) and (racial epithet #2) in the place will want ta do it! Jehosephat, ya give 'em an inch and they take a mile", hence the ban on home-fueling. To get such a rule removed in our county requires a referendum vote.
2. Toyota, the manufacturer of my truck (a 1996 T-100 SR4) gave me some interesting replies to requests for information. First, I called the local dealer and inquired about gaseous conversion. They Went: "... like we don't do that and it can't be done and you void the warranty and if you try it we are gonna call the police and the FBI and Homeland Security on you and the EPA and man are you crazy?" Got the picture? Next step was Toyota USA.
Their response was the same only in more polite language " ... no, and furthermore, no ...
The mech at Nashville Gas had said that conversion is pretty simple, actually, if there is already a gaseous fuel delivery device made for the vehicle. That is basically a bolt-on that pipes NG to a solenoid operated fuel switcher so you can go between NG and Gasoline. The Ford engines are factory made that way, so it isn't even an issue.
Modification of existing engines, he said, might involve simply connecting an NG device to the intake manifold and then the vehicle's computer chip would take over. He opined that it would cool to experiment, particularly if I wanted to leave my truck with him and his boys for a few days. I begged off of that since he had a glint in his eye, sort of like Pimp Your Ride XYBixcut or what ever his name is.
3. The EPA takes a draconian approach. It is, of course, a federal offense, to tamper with anything to do with the environmental system of a vehicle. Basically, my calls with the EPA's 800 number resulted in "you will be sent to prison for the rest of your natural life and gang-raped by Aryan Nation Lifers if you do anything like that without a license from the EPA".
Getting a license is not really a problem, however, it only requires a $100,000 bond, a corporation, a physical "doing business" presence, a federal application process, including various forms and other documents, and an EPA approval process, which the nice lady told me usually goes pretty fast, only taking about an average of 18 months.
4. The state of Tennessee has some interesting rules about "transportation of Hazardous Compressed Flammable Gasses". Basically, if you carry any cylinders of compressed gas --- with the exception of barbeque cylinders -- , containing more than 100 cubic feet of gas, you are required to have a state Department of Transportation permit, the fee for which is $1200 per year plus proof of insurance and a $1,500,000 bond. You are required to display the DOT hazard panels on all four visible corners of the vehicle and you are required to possess a Class "X" driving license endorsement (hazardous materials transporter). Of course, you are not permitted to travel on any route with is marked as prohibiting dangerous transportation and you must stop at all railroad crossings, and be named Bubba or Cooter.
The list goes on, but that's the gist.
Well, that was as far as I got ... I did find out that if I did purchase a Ford F150 truck, I could get it will all the bells and whistles of a conventionally fueled truck, and not lack for any optional equipment. The local Ford dealer said it would be no problem to order one up for me, of course there would be a $2,500 added charge for the "Special Order" and it would take about 2 to 4 months.
Need I extrapolate any longer on why ordinary people like you and me just can't get motor vehicles with alternative energy sources? Of course, I see this changing in the next few years IF the cost of gasoline goes up. The higher the gas prices the more alternatives will be available. The only fallacy it that almost ALL of the alternative energy materials generate pollution and require energy expenditures during their manufacture.
There doesn't seem to be any Free Lunch here.
------------------
Reply:
Dave,
If you have not done so please send this over to Renn List. I am sure they will appreciate your efforts.
I was in Seattle recently and noticed the cab from the airport had a large tank mounted in the trunk. I asked the cab driver about it and got the story. The cab is running liquefied natural gas. It was converted as part of a now defunct Federal subsidized program. With the subsidy the cost of fuel was about 25% of the cost of gasoline. When the federal government dumped the program the state of Washington picked it up and cut the subsidy in half thus doubling the price of fuel. The state is set to phase out the subsidy and prices will float to just below the cost of gasoline.
The catch with the set up was there were only two fueling stations - one at the cab garage and one at the airport. The tank due to weight holds less than the normal gas tank - about 8 gallons so even with the improved fuel economy the range is limited. There was no dual switch over and putting in a larger capacity tank took up too much space and added weight to the car.
When I was in Europe a few years ago we saw many cars running GPL - liquefied Natural gas. The most common conversions were Volvos and most of the stations on the main highways carried fuel.
There was an improvement in mileage and a lower cost of operation. Still last time I was in Italy in 2004 I saw less of both the GPL and Diesel. The preference was for gasoline and higher horsepower. We rented a Jag X type 2.5 liter and got many positive comments everywhere we went.
I really like the hybrid. If I was to make a conversion on the 928 I would replace the automatic transmission with an electric motor and then replace the V8 with a Highlander V6 set up as a hybrid. Done right you could smoke the average 928 and still get better gas mileage - probably in the 30 to 35 MPG range. As newer and more efficient power plants evolve they could be retrofitted. The Highlander is going to be a big seller for Toyota.
The differential on the 928 separates from the transmission and the space required for the transmission would easily accommodate a fair sized electric motor. Since the gears in the automatic differential are changeable you would have the option of playing around with the best set up - maybe event go with some 3.11s. Toyota has already done the paper work so there should be no red tape to cut through or extra licenses to obtain. Even the smog check would fly since it is a gas engine approved by the EPA. Obtaining a wrecked Highlander once they are in production should be cost effective and the sale of the other parts could help offset some of the costs. The only big deal would be adapters to make the whole thing work and maybe a little extra boost to get some extra horses.
Dan the Pod Guy
Portia's Parts
My reply:
Hey Dan, thanks very much for the info ... Man I never thought about the Highlander Option (now that sounds like a military secret operations ... "Right, Sar'nt Major! Prepare the Troops for The Highlander Option ... Make certain their Kits include the usual Timing Belt and Water Pump Replacements ... Dismiss! .... "
I think I saw something on Rennlist about a hybrid 928 .. Seems that the purists there were shocked (sorry about that pun). You know, my 928 (Kryptonite) is in pieces, and I am enough of a tinkering wrench that I am starting to think .... "
