The X Chronicles
02-10-2005, 04:22 AM
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The X Chronicles
As many of you know, Louie Ott stopped making his X-pipe 3 or 4 months ago and then publicly announced that I would carry on the X-pipe tradition in his stead. I have had many inquiries and quite a number of orders, one from as far away as Finland. Already some of the X-pipes made by The Power Broker have made their way into the hands of happy customers while others are in various stages of completion. Here’s one owner’s testimonial, “I received the X-pipe Friday and installed it today (Sat) without any problem. I was amazed at the good fit, you did a very good job on these.” Indeed the X has become an important addition to my offering of exhaust systems.
I have recently submitted drawings to Specialty Products Design, Inc. (SPD) here in California for a quote for mandrel bending the majority of the X, thus eliminating most, but not all of the welds, reducing the time I spend carefully blending the joints to improve gas flow, and perhaps most important of all, reducing the price! Last week I learned from Marc Thomas that Dave Roberts had sent one of Louie’s early X-pipes to SPD for a production run cost quote, this having been done without Louie’s knowledge or approval.
Of course this post is self-serving on my part. I already said that making the X provides part of my income (if you call less than $20/hr an income!), but I also derive considerable pleasure from making things for people who appreciate my efforts. The various products that Louie, Devek, and I make require considerable effort and expense to research, prototype, develop, test, and produce. For instance, last year I drove over 100 miles on a dyno to test various intake modifications—that’s more than 100 dyno pulls and about $2500. Had I not owned my own dyno, that cost might have been prohibitive for me. Louie incurs similar expenses and I shudder to think what Devek spends on testing and development.
What Dave Roberts does not know and you, the perhaps unwitting consumer, should know is that the sample X-pipe Dave supplied to SPD is an old design! Some time ago I did some computational fluid dynamics studies of gas flow through various X configurations for Louie and based on that information, Louie changed his design. So if you buy one of 928 Specialists’ X-pipes you will likely not be getting the latest optimized design. Also I have modified the layout to accommodate catalytic converters.
The questions this matter raises for me are of business ethics, honesty, and pirating of intellectual property. The 928 community is small, the number of vehicles ever dwindling, and practical solutions for performance needs are not endless. As with my introduction of the venturi-style merge collector a few years ago, Louie’s X-pipe is not really new, but merely a new implementation of an existing idea. So it is highly likely that there may be similarities between the various 928 product offerings. That said, I think it is reprehensible (among other adverbs) for Dave Roberts to apparently blatantly copy Louie’s X-pipe with the obvious intention of selling the copies. It’s curious that he should choose SPD, located 2500 miles away from N. Carolina, and a company that supplies both Devek and The Power Broker with goods and services.
I think it is incumbent upon Dave to address this matter and I call upon him to do so.
Sincerely,
Tom Cloutier
I have recently submitted drawings to Specialty Products Design, Inc. (SPD) here in California for a quote for mandrel bending the majority of the X, thus eliminating most, but not all of the welds, reducing the time I spend carefully blending the joints to improve gas flow, and perhaps most important of all, reducing the price! Last week I learned from Marc Thomas that Dave Roberts had sent one of Louie’s early X-pipes to SPD for a production run cost quote, this having been done without Louie’s knowledge or approval.
Of course this post is self-serving on my part. I already said that making the X provides part of my income (if you call less than $20/hr an income!), but I also derive considerable pleasure from making things for people who appreciate my efforts. The various products that Louie, Devek, and I make require considerable effort and expense to research, prototype, develop, test, and produce. For instance, last year I drove over 100 miles on a dyno to test various intake modifications—that’s more than 100 dyno pulls and about $2500. Had I not owned my own dyno, that cost might have been prohibitive for me. Louie incurs similar expenses and I shudder to think what Devek spends on testing and development.
What Dave Roberts does not know and you, the perhaps unwitting consumer, should know is that the sample X-pipe Dave supplied to SPD is an old design! Some time ago I did some computational fluid dynamics studies of gas flow through various X configurations for Louie and based on that information, Louie changed his design. So if you buy one of 928 Specialists’ X-pipes you will likely not be getting the latest optimized design. Also I have modified the layout to accommodate catalytic converters.
The questions this matter raises for me are of business ethics, honesty, and pirating of intellectual property. The 928 community is small, the number of vehicles ever dwindling, and practical solutions for performance needs are not endless. As with my introduction of the venturi-style merge collector a few years ago, Louie’s X-pipe is not really new, but merely a new implementation of an existing idea. So it is highly likely that there may be similarities between the various 928 product offerings. That said, I think it is reprehensible (among other adverbs) for Dave Roberts to apparently blatantly copy Louie’s X-pipe with the obvious intention of selling the copies. It’s curious that he should choose SPD, located 2500 miles away from N. Carolina, and a company that supplies both Devek and The Power Broker with goods and services.
I think it is incumbent upon Dave to address this matter and I call upon him to do so.
Sincerely,
Tom Cloutier
02-10-2005, 05:12 AM
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Tom, I think you have a legitimate beef with Dave but before bashing him on Rennlist at least spend the $20 and become a member. He is a sponsor of this site 
02-10-2005, 08:05 AM
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Tom,
Wish you maximum success in marketing the continued development of the 'X' concept.
As noted, the 'X' theory is widely used and is not proprietary; however, the refinement to a specific (928) application requires considerable R&D. The positive results referred to achieved at your time and expense will not be lost on a hard core of enthusiasts, as found on this forum - and I trust that you will find much support here for providing this opportunity.
However, unless you and colleagues have some aggressive promotional plans, that leaves a somewhat limited market segment of total 928 ownership open to you.
The 'Big Three' [ and many others, Zims, Vertex, .. ] serve the needs and demands of a significant slice of that ownership pie .... - so one would believe there are consumers within that broader slice that also seek performance enhancements ... like X-pipes/total exhaust systems, etc., - consumers that have never heard of the Rennlist ...
I have no knowledge of your intended marketing scope: However, it is fair to say that if ever growing sales is the plan, then aggressive advertising/marketing/$$$$$ go along with this to reach these owners. One must be prepared to do this - or consider creating an alliance with an established vendor who has already done so - one that has an established 928 cliental through having spent the $$ , developing fancy web sites, dispensing expertise, issuing catalogues, whatever.
Just a comment - ...
Wish you maximum success in marketing the continued development of the 'X' concept.
As noted, the 'X' theory is widely used and is not proprietary; however, the refinement to a specific (928) application requires considerable R&D. The positive results referred to achieved at your time and expense will not be lost on a hard core of enthusiasts, as found on this forum - and I trust that you will find much support here for providing this opportunity.
However, unless you and colleagues have some aggressive promotional plans, that leaves a somewhat limited market segment of total 928 ownership open to you.
The 'Big Three' [ and many others, Zims, Vertex, .. ] serve the needs and demands of a significant slice of that ownership pie .... - so one would believe there are consumers within that broader slice that also seek performance enhancements ... like X-pipes/total exhaust systems, etc., - consumers that have never heard of the Rennlist ...
I have no knowledge of your intended marketing scope: However, it is fair to say that if ever growing sales is the plan, then aggressive advertising/marketing/$$$$$ go along with this to reach these owners. One must be prepared to do this - or consider creating an alliance with an established vendor who has already done so - one that has an established 928 cliental through having spent the $$ , developing fancy web sites, dispensing expertise, issuing catalogues, whatever.
Just a comment - ...
02-10-2005, 08:45 AM
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"A grant made by a government that confers upon the creator of an invention the sole right to make, use, and sell that invention for a set period of time."
Dictionary.com for 'Patent'
NO PATENT = FREE ENTERPRISE = CAPITALISM
Good Luck
Dictionary.com for 'Patent'
NO PATENT = FREE ENTERPRISE = CAPITALISM
Good Luck
02-10-2005, 08:49 AM
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Tom-
Glad to hear you're picking up the torch. I've heard good things about your work, and it appears you know what you're doing from a design point.
Now I'm not hear to defend anyone, but unless Mr. Ott has a copyright (or better patented) design, there is nothing to stop me, DR, or anyone else from copying the design. And if people do copy it and go into that business, well that's just competition. If you want to build a barrier to entry into that market you need to protect you product. Your claim appears to be that somehow it's unethical to copy the Ott design. Unless the design is protected and you bought said design, I disagree.
But there is hope and you've already expressed it. You have intimate knowledge of how to improve the design and make it better than your new competition's design. This is your competitive advantage. If you continually innovate and improve your product, you should find success. Further, why not talk to the Big 3 and others about being their supplier for these? Sure you might not make as much on each product if you did this, but you'd have less competition. Hopefully you haven't burned that bridge here.
I hope you find success in your venture.
Glad to hear you're picking up the torch. I've heard good things about your work, and it appears you know what you're doing from a design point.
Now I'm not hear to defend anyone, but unless Mr. Ott has a copyright (or better patented) design, there is nothing to stop me, DR, or anyone else from copying the design. And if people do copy it and go into that business, well that's just competition. If you want to build a barrier to entry into that market you need to protect you product. Your claim appears to be that somehow it's unethical to copy the Ott design. Unless the design is protected and you bought said design, I disagree.
But there is hope and you've already expressed it. You have intimate knowledge of how to improve the design and make it better than your new competition's design. This is your competitive advantage. If you continually innovate and improve your product, you should find success. Further, why not talk to the Big 3 and others about being their supplier for these? Sure you might not make as much on each product if you did this, but you'd have less competition. Hopefully you haven't burned that bridge here.
I hope you find success in your venture.
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02-10-2005, 09:08 AM
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"That said, I think it is reprehensible (among other adverbs) for Dave Roberts to apparently blatantly copy Louie’s X-pipe with the obvious intention of selling the copies"
Blatant copy....or blatant attempt to fulfill a need for our "ever dwindling" numbers?
As stated above - no Patent...no intellectual rights.
I know the folks at 928 Spec well, and I view what they are doing as a great SERVICE to the 928 community. When it became known that Louie was no longer going to make the X-pipe (and - since the one I have is almost 2 years old - I guess I have an INFERIOR product?!?!?), there was much lamenting on the demise, and muc discussion here on the R'list about alternatives.
DR is a small business person serving a very small niche. 928 Spec goes above and beyond in their service to our small group. They gladly dispense with copius amounts of free advice, both here and on the phone to ANYONE that calls. They sponsor SITM, etc. etc. etc.
DR - CUDOS for supporting our "dwindling numbers". Thanks for being a Rennlist MEMBER and SPONSOR. Thanks for the new fancy website. Thanks for supporting our community.
I look forward to DR addressing this here in the boards, and knowing him (after a few deep breaths!) he will do so WITHOUT a sour apples attitude!
Blatant copy....or blatant attempt to fulfill a need for our "ever dwindling" numbers?
As stated above - no Patent...no intellectual rights.
I know the folks at 928 Spec well, and I view what they are doing as a great SERVICE to the 928 community. When it became known that Louie was no longer going to make the X-pipe (and - since the one I have is almost 2 years old - I guess I have an INFERIOR product?!?!?), there was much lamenting on the demise, and muc discussion here on the R'list about alternatives.
DR is a small business person serving a very small niche. 928 Spec goes above and beyond in their service to our small group. They gladly dispense with copius amounts of free advice, both here and on the phone to ANYONE that calls. They sponsor SITM, etc. etc. etc.
DR - CUDOS for supporting our "dwindling numbers". Thanks for being a Rennlist MEMBER and SPONSOR. Thanks for the new fancy website. Thanks for supporting our community.
I look forward to DR addressing this here in the boards, and knowing him (after a few deep breaths!) he will do so WITHOUT a sour apples attitude!
02-10-2005, 10:23 AM
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Thanks for the little "story" this morning. You have me literally rolling on the floor laughing my *** off. It is a damn shame that you are letting Marc Thomas use you for his vendetta against me for the comments I made yesterday.
Very funny and very sad for both of you guys. It is a darn shame that you guys cannot sell products on your own merit without resorting to spreading public lies and innuendos.
Lets talk about some real facts, OK.
X pipes and Siamese pipes have been around before you and I were born. Nothing new,. Nothing sacred about them. My friend Louie didn't invent this and no on else on the list did either.
NOTHING, you, I Devek, or anyone else makes is truly original product , pretty much everything that is made in the automotive world is a rehash, remake, reengineer of another product.
I have supported Louie Ott and his products long before anyone else and Louie and I are the best of friends
Louie called me last year and asked me to start making his X-pipes, we informally agreed and talked of sending his jig etc, to me. We both got busy and never discussed it after that.
A 928 lister contacted me an told me to call SPD about Exhaust fab work. When I called them I was told they wanted to stop selling SPD Headers to DEVEK because they only sold 5 or so a year and originally promised to sell more than that.. You know the Devek Level II headers, SPD told me that those are SPD designed headers, and SPD had the right to sell them to who ever they wanted to and discussed selling them to me. I was not interested , BUT told them I had other items I wanted then to possibly make for me.
Due to the issues I stated the other day I told them a wanted to make a stainless X-pipe. They said no problem . SO, I sent then a dual 32-valve Cat and one of Louie's X-pipes to be used for benchmarking. The Cat was sent so that my new Stainless X-pipe would fit properly, Louie's X-pipe was sent as an example of how NOT TO MAKE IT!!! I respect Louie and think the world of him , but his X-pipe in my opinion is all wrong for the product I want to sell. It was sent not sent to be used for a production run, far from the truth.
It is way too heavy, I had to crowbar one to get it installed, the O2 sensor is not in the location I want mine, plus many other items.
SO, in yours and Marc's usual level of BULL ****, you have it all wrong and as usual start running your mouth about things you do not have first hand knowledge of, shame on you.
OK, now let's talk about some facts that I have first hand knowledge of.
"Mr. Holier than thou Clouiter" on July 28th 2000 called us and ordered a set of MSDS headers, he kept them long enough to "benchmark" them and promptly sent them back to us.
If you guys we check the beginning of the Powerbroker stuff, you will see he started selling headers shortly after that date. Interesting???
The "medusa" headers that Tom makes are his original design.. BS, he copied that design from other companies.
Venturi Exhaust, did Tom invent this, I think not!!
Quite frankly Tom EVERYTHING YOU SELL IS COPIED FROM ANOTHER PRODUCT!
Since Tom seems to be a front man for Marc Thomas, let's clear the air about their precious Devek headers.
The Original "Devek Level 1" headers that they bragged to everyone that it was their product was plain and simple out of the box MSDS headers. I you don't believe me ask Marty at MSDS, he is still pissed about it even now.
The New and improved Devek Level 2 headers are COPIES of the MSDS headers with some tweaks.
The bottom line is if you 2 guys want to start a **** throwing contest, BRING IT ON. I have YEARS of data of all the crap and would LOVE to air it publicly. It would truly make my day!!
I am also blown away that SPD divulged confidential information, but I should have know better after the way the trashed Devek over and over to me.. Lesson learned
I am also truly saddened that the recent crop of 928 venders that seem to feel they have to publicly trash other companies in order to sell their products, if you can't sell your products on their own merits without this type of BS, please go sell 911 parts, you wil fit in better there:-)
Quite frankly it seems that you , Devek, and SPD are all from the same mold and deserve each other, good luck!
Sincerely,
Very funny and very sad for both of you guys. It is a darn shame that you guys cannot sell products on your own merit without resorting to spreading public lies and innuendos.
Lets talk about some real facts, OK.
X pipes and Siamese pipes have been around before you and I were born. Nothing new,. Nothing sacred about them. My friend Louie didn't invent this and no on else on the list did either.
NOTHING, you, I Devek, or anyone else makes is truly original product , pretty much everything that is made in the automotive world is a rehash, remake, reengineer of another product.
I have supported Louie Ott and his products long before anyone else and Louie and I are the best of friends
Louie called me last year and asked me to start making his X-pipes, we informally agreed and talked of sending his jig etc, to me. We both got busy and never discussed it after that.
A 928 lister contacted me an told me to call SPD about Exhaust fab work. When I called them I was told they wanted to stop selling SPD Headers to DEVEK because they only sold 5 or so a year and originally promised to sell more than that.. You know the Devek Level II headers, SPD told me that those are SPD designed headers, and SPD had the right to sell them to who ever they wanted to and discussed selling them to me. I was not interested , BUT told them I had other items I wanted then to possibly make for me.
Due to the issues I stated the other day I told them a wanted to make a stainless X-pipe. They said no problem . SO, I sent then a dual 32-valve Cat and one of Louie's X-pipes to be used for benchmarking. The Cat was sent so that my new Stainless X-pipe would fit properly, Louie's X-pipe was sent as an example of how NOT TO MAKE IT!!! I respect Louie and think the world of him , but his X-pipe in my opinion is all wrong for the product I want to sell. It was sent not sent to be used for a production run, far from the truth.
It is way too heavy, I had to crowbar one to get it installed, the O2 sensor is not in the location I want mine, plus many other items.
SO, in yours and Marc's usual level of BULL ****, you have it all wrong and as usual start running your mouth about things you do not have first hand knowledge of, shame on you.
OK, now let's talk about some facts that I have first hand knowledge of.
"Mr. Holier than thou Clouiter" on July 28th 2000 called us and ordered a set of MSDS headers, he kept them long enough to "benchmark" them and promptly sent them back to us.
If you guys we check the beginning of the Powerbroker stuff, you will see he started selling headers shortly after that date. Interesting???
The "medusa" headers that Tom makes are his original design.. BS, he copied that design from other companies.
Venturi Exhaust, did Tom invent this, I think not!!
Quite frankly Tom EVERYTHING YOU SELL IS COPIED FROM ANOTHER PRODUCT!
Since Tom seems to be a front man for Marc Thomas, let's clear the air about their precious Devek headers.
The Original "Devek Level 1" headers that they bragged to everyone that it was their product was plain and simple out of the box MSDS headers. I you don't believe me ask Marty at MSDS, he is still pissed about it even now.
The New and improved Devek Level 2 headers are COPIES of the MSDS headers with some tweaks.
The bottom line is if you 2 guys want to start a **** throwing contest, BRING IT ON. I have YEARS of data of all the crap and would LOVE to air it publicly. It would truly make my day!!
I am also blown away that SPD divulged confidential information, but I should have know better after the way the trashed Devek over and over to me.. Lesson learned
I am also truly saddened that the recent crop of 928 venders that seem to feel they have to publicly trash other companies in order to sell their products, if you can't sell your products on their own merits without this type of BS, please go sell 911 parts, you wil fit in better there:-)
Quite frankly it seems that you , Devek, and SPD are all from the same mold and deserve each other, good luck!
Sincerely,
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02-10-2005, 10:40 AM
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Now THAT was a good, old fashioned, *** kicking.............I am greatly amused and continue to be a huge fan of DR and 'Specialists...............
02-10-2005, 10:54 AM
#12
Drifting
Oh no, a **** throwing contest and me without my helmet. It seems Devek is moving towards other ventures also, not just 928 stuff. From stories I've heard. Everyone has their own opinions and that's how it will always be. Talking back and forth doesn't seem to solve this problem if niether side changes their view. I buy stuff from the big 3 and will add 928 Motorsports onto that list and I will continue to buy from all of them as I see fit. If two of them have a war back and forth, maybe that'll drive down some pricing.
02-10-2005, 10:55 AM
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Hi Shane,
When our Test pipe gets made by our new fab guy (FYI, we had dropped SPD weeks ago for lack of results and other reasons) my plans were for 3 O2 bungs, one in the center for stock apps, and one on each down tube for specific L/R bank tuning in advanced applications.
When our Test pipe gets made by our new fab guy (FYI, we had dropped SPD weeks ago for lack of results and other reasons) my plans were for 3 O2 bungs, one in the center for stock apps, and one on each down tube for specific L/R bank tuning in advanced applications.
02-10-2005, 11:04 AM
#14
Drifting
Hmmmm, this gets interesting. Our version of the Ott X-over is currently installed on my car and is being dyno'd this week. It is with Louie's blessing and assistance and has been in design for quite a while. It is a modified Dr. Gas X-over and we will know if they have improved on Louie's design by next week. It will be available with and without cats and in stainless or mild steel. We are also doing a cat back 2.5" that will be available soon.
I do not feel the need to trash anyone else, this is all free enterprise with no promises made for exclusivity by Louie. He told me that Tom would be doing his own version but I mistook that to mean that he would be welding them up the same as Louie, not mass producing them which is why we decided to. We will still be producing a hopefully superior product but probably at a lesser quantity due to the amount of people jumping into the race.
While I can't agree with someone buying another's product for the purpose of copying and selling it, it happens every day in business. If each person improves it as it moves from manufacturer's design to re-manufacturer's design, we all end up with a better product. We decided to do it with permission of the original manufacturer.
So, gentleman........the **** slinging doesn't do your companies any good. It is all legal and while not exactly honorable, it's still common business. We are a bit disappointed that we are not the only ones producing an X but we also knew that Tom would be making some.
Dave
Motorsport
I do not feel the need to trash anyone else, this is all free enterprise with no promises made for exclusivity by Louie. He told me that Tom would be doing his own version but I mistook that to mean that he would be welding them up the same as Louie, not mass producing them which is why we decided to. We will still be producing a hopefully superior product but probably at a lesser quantity due to the amount of people jumping into the race.
While I can't agree with someone buying another's product for the purpose of copying and selling it, it happens every day in business. If each person improves it as it moves from manufacturer's design to re-manufacturer's design, we all end up with a better product. We decided to do it with permission of the original manufacturer.
So, gentleman........the **** slinging doesn't do your companies any good. It is all legal and while not exactly honorable, it's still common business. We are a bit disappointed that we are not the only ones producing an X but we also knew that Tom would be making some.
Dave
Motorsport
02-10-2005, 11:04 AM
#15
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>If two of them have a war back and forth,
No war here, it takes 2 for that and I have better things to do like take care of my 928 friends.
It is a shame about all of this BS, Everyone is making some darn nice products for 928 and new cool stuff comes out every day. This only serves to make the 928 market as whole stronger for all of us (vendors included). Prime example is Marc's new fan system, VERY nice, I just hate that sometimes these can get lost and degraded in the all the BS.
> maybe that'll drive down some pricing.
We did that years ago and continue the cause on a daily basis :-)
No war here, it takes 2 for that and I have better things to do like take care of my 928 friends.
It is a shame about all of this BS, Everyone is making some darn nice products for 928 and new cool stuff comes out every day. This only serves to make the 928 market as whole stronger for all of us (vendors included). Prime example is Marc's new fan system, VERY nice, I just hate that sometimes these can get lost and degraded in the all the BS.
> maybe that'll drive down some pricing.
We did that years ago and continue the cause on a daily basis :-)