Dennis Wilson

Funny. Yesterday, while cleaning the contacts on the fuse panel, I was musing why the Porsche engineers used so many fuses and why they used the old torpedo style fuses. They reinvented the wheel on so many components, why not a fuse with a bigger contact patch? Also, looking at the wiring in the back of the fuse panel would scare off most electricians. Noticed that many of the wires had no slack and any repairs will require replacement of the wire connector to connector. It's obvious the electical engineers were not as advanced as the rest of the engineering teams.

Dennis

GlenL

Define "over engineered."

Safety margins too high? Systems too complex? Technology unnecessarily advanced?

In a word: "no."

Mongo

I'm not digging the multi-fluid cooling radiators....why can't the tranny or lubrication system have a cooler completely SEPARATE?!

sweanders

I would say that a car that was developed almost 30 years ago with few changes over it's production life and still being competitive today is an example of excellent engineering.

JKelly

When I think of the term "over-engineered" I visualize the car as having more complexity or luxuries than it really needs. I voted "Both. Some excellent and some terrible features".

......I started typing out the features that I didn't like and thought my post was starting to sound too negative. There are many more excellent features than terrible so I'll leave it at that.

While there are those habitual problems that reoccur in every year 928, such as the heater valve, early motor mount failure, and the hatch release mechanism, these are not problems arising from being "over-engineered".
It is possible that the 928 is engineered just as Porsche wanted it to be....a balance between luxury and sport, and that the owners either like it the way it is and feel it was way ahead of its time with many extra "excellent" features or wish it was more on the "sports" side of the equation and think it is "over-engineered" with many extra "terrible" features. I'm more on the "sports" side, but I like my big comfortable heavy 8-way adjustable heated leather seats ; and my sun roof too.

heinrich

Not my intent.

By "overengineered" I mean a POSITIVE thing. Engineered OVER AND ABOVE the tolerances, specifications, requirements, etc needed for the car's designed application.

In other words the engine is clearly overengineered, with its high lifespan and incredible ability to take boost with no modifications. Conversely the heater valve belongs in the trash IMHO, it is severely underengineered.

Overengineered == can do more than what is asked of it in the car as manufactured.

JKelly

So what you are actually asking about and taking a poll on in this thread, is:
Are the parts of the Porsche 928 Overengineered? Really?

heinrich

JKelly I am asking about what I asked about in the first meassage. Understand it any way you prefer. SHEESH!! Can't keep everyone happy even by asking a simple bloody wquestion

JKelly

Well, when you start writing new definitions for words it creates a little confusion in my pea sized brain.

Peace

heinrich

OK Sorry you caught me in a bad mood But "overengineered" means (Per Merriam-Webster at http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...verengineered:)

Main Entry: over-
Function: prefix
1 : so as to exceed or surpass <overachieve>
2 : EXCESSIVE <overstimulation>
3 : to an excessive degree <overthin>


Main Entry: 2engineer
Function: transitive verb
1 : to lay out, construct, or manage as an engineer
2 a : to contrive or plan out usually with more or less subtle skill and craft b : to guide the course of
3 : to modify or produce by genetic engineering <grain crops engineered to require fewer nutrients and produce higher yields>

GlenL

OK then. Mr. Merriam and I agree on this. A funny term as it elicits different opinions as to whether it is good or bad. Speaking as an engineer, and even moreso as an engineering manager, "over-engineered" means the staff wasted their time, or added unnecessary manufacturing cost, making the product better in some way. An over-engineered bridge, for example, is stronger and more costly than it needs to be.

Really comes down to perspective. If you're paying for it, then over-engineered is a bad thing. If you are getting it for free, then it's usually a good thing.

I'm impressed with the engineering of the 928 and consider it neither over- or under-engineered. There are things that may have been done better but hindsight is always more accurate than foresight. Especially when there's a twenty year history to see.

heinrich

Glen .... true. In my 928 anything which is OVERengineered is a PLUS for me. Why would I want less?

Jim bailey - 928 International

I think it is accurate to assume that the 928 was engineered with hand drawn blue prints and slide rule manual calculations for stress analysis etc. That tends to lead to overdesigning parts just to be sure they are adequate for the job. It also allows for future increases in size of the engine and power. Ferry Porsche was once asked about what he thought about the 911 engine which began as a 2 liter and grew and grew to 3.6 / 3.8 .... His reply ,the original engine design should have been a much smaller package. At that time the 928 was designed Porsche was a company managed by auto enthusiasts/engineers who built a car which they would like to drive and hoped that consumers would also wish to drive one and buy one. The objective was to build the very best sportscar that they could design starting with nothing and questioning everything. All things were considered like engine placement ,number of cylinders, wheelbase ,width to create a 2 plus 2 . Porsche is now building what the marketing department and senior management thinks they can SELL. The new all grown up 997 is virtually identical in size to a 928 because to be a 2 plus 2 you need a minimum amount of space. The plastics used by Porsche for things like dash covers have not stood the test of time ,actually sunlight. For many years Porsches 911s were bought by enthusiasts who often kept them enshrined in the garage seldom driving ,they were instant collector cars. Today I believe over 40 % of all new Porsche cars are leased (rented) and most driven as transportation. With the possible exception of the Carrera GT V-10 at $450,000 Porsche is building transportation vehicles designed to be used and used up ,then thrown away so they can sell you another such vehicle. Anyone care to guess what a V-6 Chilipepper when ten years old with 150,000 miles of wear and tear will be worth ?

heinrich

Jim, I see it that way also. From a modern owner's perspective, we have in our possession something that I think will NEVER again be seen. Anyone remember when the Toyota Engineers came up with ceramic engine blocks and pistons?

blau928

Jim,

I'm with you on this one.. I think there was definitely a shift in the auto industry in '95-'00, as all the manufacturers started building cars that marketing thought they could sell around that time.. I spoke to a few engineers while in Germany that worked for BMW and MBZ, and they were themselves saying that the new cars are not built to the same high standards as the older ones. The new engines and drivelines are meant to be junked after approximately 100,000 miles.

Horrible, but if you subscribe to renting an expensive car to impress your friends, or tell the world you are rich, then the companies can make more money on you... Most profitable division at the car companies are the financing groups/divisions for a reason..

Anyway, for the thread, I think many parts were overengineered, and some were underengineered. In general terms, the vehicle was overengineered. I don't know of too many 20+ year old cars in which I feel safe driving at 1xx+ mph....

Cheers,