Airbag rumor
12-15-2004, 06:57 PM
#31
Drifting
Originally Posted by Chazz
IcemanG17, sure airbags are great for people who don't wear seatbelts. But if you wear them properly, airbags don't, according to NTSB fatality statistics, provide additional benefit.
However he would have been saved 3 months with his skull in a contraption that looked like it belonged in a horror film, and several months of pain as the bones in his cheeks, nose and jaw were gradually set back in place, this involved continually increasing the tension in the clamps around his face.
Go ahead, remove your airbags, save a few grand.
12-15-2004, 08:01 PM
#32
Drifting
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Explain what happened in that accident, that an airbag would have prevented...
Just curious.
You can get messed up pretty badly in a bad accident, even with airbags.
Just curious.
You can get messed up pretty badly in a bad accident, even with airbags.
12-16-2004, 02:50 PM
#33
Drifting
The accident was serious enough that it took 2 hours to cut him out of the car, about 3 months before he could eat solid food, 6 months before he could walk again, and several years before walking unaided. An airbag wouldn't have helped him recover his mobility any quicker, but it would have made it more likely that I'd have recognised him when I saw him in hospital.
Even when wearing a seatbelt your head is very likely to impact the steering wheel if you are involved in a serious collision. Although steering columns are "collapsible" there is still really no contest between your face and a steering wheel - face loses. An airbag may well cause minor burns (usually to hands/arms) but it is often going to save you from very unpleasant soft tissue damage, lost teeth, a broken jaw, broken bones in you nose, pallet and cheeks.
So tell me, would you prefer to go face first in to a steering wheel at speed, or in to an airbag?
Even when wearing a seatbelt your head is very likely to impact the steering wheel if you are involved in a serious collision. Although steering columns are "collapsible" there is still really no contest between your face and a steering wheel - face loses. An airbag may well cause minor burns (usually to hands/arms) but it is often going to save you from very unpleasant soft tissue damage, lost teeth, a broken jaw, broken bones in you nose, pallet and cheeks.
So tell me, would you prefer to go face first in to a steering wheel at speed, or in to an airbag?
12-16-2004, 09:32 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
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If it saves my 928, I would rather have my head in a clamp for 6 months rather (let alone 3 months) than it being totalled and off to the junkyard in the sky. My face will never be seen in GQanyhow. 
12-17-2004, 09:23 AM
#36
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I think if the car gets totalled from airbags and its insured right to begin with, then its a good thing if you can arrange to buy the car back for the minimal cost and then repair it yourself. Make some $$$ like other rennlisters have and still keep your car. Lord knows that a USED dash, airbags, and a windshield that was sourced and installed miserly would not come close to the $$$ that a good body shop would charge for their repair services. At the very least you would have a great project car and a fist full of cash.
I would insure right and buy it back. Just my 2 cents. All joking aside, keep the airbags functional. Your might need them at some point, especially those of us who think we're speed racer.
I would insure right and buy it back. Just my 2 cents. All joking aside, keep the airbags functional. Your might need them at some point, especially those of us who think we're speed racer.
12-17-2004, 11:00 AM
#37
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Originally Posted by UKKid35
The accident was serious enough that it took 2 hours to cut him out of the car, about 3 months before he could eat solid food, 6 months before he could walk again, and several years before walking unaided. An airbag wouldn't have helped him recover his mobility any quicker, but it would have made it more likely that I'd have recognised him when I saw him in hospital.
Even when wearing a seatbelt your head is very likely to impact the steering wheel if you are involved in a serious collision. Although steering columns are "collapsible" there is still really no contest between your face and a steering wheel - face loses. An airbag may well cause minor burns (usually to hands/arms) but it is often going to save you from very unpleasant soft tissue damage, lost teeth, a broken jaw, broken bones in you nose, pallet and cheeks.
So tell me, would you prefer to go face first in to a steering wheel at speed, or in to an airbag?
Even when wearing a seatbelt your head is very likely to impact the steering wheel if you are involved in a serious collision. Although steering columns are "collapsible" there is still really no contest between your face and a steering wheel - face loses. An airbag may well cause minor burns (usually to hands/arms) but it is often going to save you from very unpleasant soft tissue damage, lost teeth, a broken jaw, broken bones in you nose, pallet and cheeks.
So tell me, would you prefer to go face first in to a steering wheel at speed, or in to an airbag?
My first Porsche (very nice 968 coupe) and I had a very unfortunate encounter with a patch of black ice one morning that sent us both into a spin and a pretty hard encounter with a barrier wall. The airbags did not go off, but the car was pretty banged up ($11k worth of damage), I was totally fine except for the thumb nail I nearly ripped off gripping the steering wheel. While being repaired I asked the mechanic why the airbags didn't go off. He simply stated that it was not a hard enough impact for them to go off........and he was right. The seatbelts were all that was necessary to restrain me properly, if the crash was a direct head on it probably would have been different. If the airbag system is working correctly......they just don't go off with any fender bender.
My opinion? If you got the airbags make sure they are working correctly and go with it.......they might save you or one of your loved ones a rearranged face in the future........even if they do total your shark. Everyday there are about 200 or more for sale.....so it's not like you couldn't eventually find a replacement..........the same cannot be said for you.
12-17-2004, 01:48 PM
#38
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I'm following this thread closely, because I'm in a unique situation. I have airbags in my '91, but I'm not sure if they will deploy when they should (warning light comes on at every startup). I have to assume that the system would not allow involuntary deployment of the bags - I hope. I realize that the airbag warning system is similar to the CEL in some cars, in that once it is tripped, it will stay on regardless of whether the problem persists or not....until it is reset.
So the big question is....do I forego the cost of diagnostics w/the Hammer - likely leading to sensor replacement or repair & reset, or do I deal with the nagging light and drive around with mixed feelings as to whether I really want the bags to deploy during light or moderate impact.
I must say, that cost is a deciding factor in my case. If somebody could tell me that for $100 I could fix my airbag warning situation with some certainty, & that it was a long-term fix, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
But I'm guessing that's not the case. I don't know of anybody who's willing - or able to monkey with two very expensive explodable devices that would even take their Hammer out of it's case for anything less than $200.
There's a little devil on my one shoulder and an angel on the other. The devil usually makes more sense, but the angel's almost always right. The back & forth opinions in this thread leave the head in the middle in a quandry.
The way I see it, there's a solid argument on both sides. One is, if you have a safety feature in a car that has been proven effective - and may very well save your life or limb in an accident, why wouldn't you use it? Good argument. Excellent argument.
That argument can also be applied to motorcycle riding. Why risk the likelihood that eventually you'll go down, and it won't be pretty. Excellent argument. I ask that question of myself & others all the time. It makes me a hypocrite, because I've never been without a motorcycle for the past 28 years. I'm going to be a huge hypocrite when I tell my 2 year old, in 14 years that no way in hell is he getting a motorcycle. Motorcycles are "risk to benefit" defined. Do I use all the safety equipment available to me when I ride (full leathers, gloves, strobing headlight, gloves, big bike with crash bars) ? No. Will I still ride into my golden years? Probably. Will I ever do a Gary Busey into a curb? Hopefully not.
There are two rules that I live by regarding my bike that I guess I can apply to airbags in my car. I will never put anyone at risk by putting them on the back of my bike on the street - ever. Those days are gone. I also won't use my bike for day to day transportation - ever. Those days never occurred, & that's why I'm not in a wheelchair today.
So, I guess I'll apply that logic to my airbag situation: So long as my car is not an everyday driver, and so long as 90% of my driving is without a passenger, I can forego the chance that my airbags aren't up to par, or may not work at all, and drive the car like it's a classic exotic and not a Volvo family hauler.
I bought a '91 GT to enjoy driving a machine with character - recreationally. I bought an AWD SUV with airbags and no character whatsoever for day-to-day transportation, to get me out of a pinch and keep me around in the event of an accident. And I bought a late model minivan with proven reliability, with a 5 star crash rating to haul the kids around in.
I guess I've answered my own question. That little angel isn't too happy about it, though.
So the big question is....do I forego the cost of diagnostics w/the Hammer - likely leading to sensor replacement or repair & reset, or do I deal with the nagging light and drive around with mixed feelings as to whether I really want the bags to deploy during light or moderate impact.
I must say, that cost is a deciding factor in my case. If somebody could tell me that for $100 I could fix my airbag warning situation with some certainty, & that it was a long-term fix, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
But I'm guessing that's not the case. I don't know of anybody who's willing - or able to monkey with two very expensive explodable devices that would even take their Hammer out of it's case for anything less than $200.
There's a little devil on my one shoulder and an angel on the other. The devil usually makes more sense, but the angel's almost always right. The back & forth opinions in this thread leave the head in the middle in a quandry.
The way I see it, there's a solid argument on both sides. One is, if you have a safety feature in a car that has been proven effective - and may very well save your life or limb in an accident, why wouldn't you use it? Good argument. Excellent argument.
That argument can also be applied to motorcycle riding. Why risk the likelihood that eventually you'll go down, and it won't be pretty. Excellent argument. I ask that question of myself & others all the time. It makes me a hypocrite, because I've never been without a motorcycle for the past 28 years. I'm going to be a huge hypocrite when I tell my 2 year old, in 14 years that no way in hell is he getting a motorcycle. Motorcycles are "risk to benefit" defined. Do I use all the safety equipment available to me when I ride (full leathers, gloves, strobing headlight, gloves, big bike with crash bars) ? No. Will I still ride into my golden years? Probably. Will I ever do a Gary Busey into a curb? Hopefully not.
There are two rules that I live by regarding my bike that I guess I can apply to airbags in my car. I will never put anyone at risk by putting them on the back of my bike on the street - ever. Those days are gone. I also won't use my bike for day to day transportation - ever. Those days never occurred, & that's why I'm not in a wheelchair today.
So, I guess I'll apply that logic to my airbag situation: So long as my car is not an everyday driver, and so long as 90% of my driving is without a passenger, I can forego the chance that my airbags aren't up to par, or may not work at all, and drive the car like it's a classic exotic and not a Volvo family hauler.
I bought a '91 GT to enjoy driving a machine with character - recreationally. I bought an AWD SUV with airbags and no character whatsoever for day-to-day transportation, to get me out of a pinch and keep me around in the event of an accident. And I bought a late model minivan with proven reliability, with a 5 star crash rating to haul the kids around in.
I guess I've answered my own question. That little angel isn't too happy about it, though.
12-17-2004, 02:56 PM
#39
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Interesting theories......but can't say I agree.
You want to drive a "classic exotic", but don't want to make it right by spending a few dollars to see what is wrong with a system that could either save you a bunch of grief or even your life? What happens if an airbag goes off without a collision due to the fact you didn't heed the warning light?? Then what will you think??
There are more than a few shops with the hammer that will gladly take a look for not a lot of money. If I recall there are at least a couple of members on this list and the others that have a hammer and would probably help you out.......the hammer is not just for the 928.......seek them out.
The 928 was never made to be a cheap car to maintain, and one main reason their value is low is due to the fact people just "let things go". Pretty soon something else doesn't work and it gets blown off, then the next, until the whole dash is lit up like a Christmas tree and no one want's to mess with it or buy it.
Do the right thing and at least get it checked out........as Nicole stated it could be something simple as a ground, etc. Then you will at least know where you stand. Good luck with it!
You want to drive a "classic exotic", but don't want to make it right by spending a few dollars to see what is wrong with a system that could either save you a bunch of grief or even your life? What happens if an airbag goes off without a collision due to the fact you didn't heed the warning light?? Then what will you think??
There are more than a few shops with the hammer that will gladly take a look for not a lot of money. If I recall there are at least a couple of members on this list and the others that have a hammer and would probably help you out.......the hammer is not just for the 928.......seek them out.
The 928 was never made to be a cheap car to maintain, and one main reason their value is low is due to the fact people just "let things go". Pretty soon something else doesn't work and it gets blown off, then the next, until the whole dash is lit up like a Christmas tree and no one want's to mess with it or buy it.
Do the right thing and at least get it checked out........as Nicole stated it could be something simple as a ground, etc. Then you will at least know where you stand. Good luck with it!
12-17-2004, 04:51 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Mike,
First of all, thanks for reading my long winded post. This is the only unresolved issue that I have with any of my cars, so it's a biggie to me. It's a Pandora's Box just sitting there, IMO.
Good point about finding a Hammer from a source other than the Porsche dealer.
I agree, I may be able to get a Hammer hooked up to my car & get a reading for not alot of money.
If it is something as minor as a sporadic ground fault, and the light can be reset, I'm all for it...and I agree it's certainly worth the trouble to at least see if that takes care of the issue. I could get lucky.
However, I'll bet you that once I get a reading from the Hammer, it won't be simply resetting the system to clear the problem. If it is, beer's on me.
Assuming that the problem is more than a simple reset, and let's say that it's something as simple as a grounding issue, I still have the problem (I just know more about it) and who's going to take care of it?
Not me. I'm willing to mess with most things, but when they involve the elect. system (The Great Unknown), with a couple of explosive devices at the other end, I'm out. If I had assurances that messing with the sensor would in no way deploy bags, I might attempt it myself. But hell, I don't even know where the sensors are. Their exact location seems to be a mystery...at least I've never figured it out.
And that seems to be the concensus with the mechanics with Hammers (albeit only 2) that I've talked to about this. One was the service manager at Rockville Porsche. I asked where the sensors were, and he said he didn't know right off hand. He was in no hurry to get into a '91 car with an airbag problem, either (too much liability & not enough $$?) And I would never rely on the guy who was letting me use the Hammer, or running a diagnostic for a couple of bucks, either. I understand that these things are really pricey, and most mechanics are trying to recoup their investment. If I'm trying to save a few bucks, I certainly can't hold him accountable if he accidentally deploys my bags.
The best intentions coming from a reasonably priced mechanic with a Hammer could maybe accidently deploy my airbags, right? If I'm wrong about that, please tell me, and I'll admit that I'm totally off track on this one.
So who?
The only situation in which I'd feel right about holding the mechanic responsible for setting off my bags & the other related damage that is itemized on this list is the good 'ol local Porsche dealership, and now we're out of the 'couple of bucks' range.
Anybody out there experienced with fixing a bad ground causing the Airbag Warning Light? I'd be more than happy to turn over the problem to somebody who was experienced and/or confident about working with this system.
Any suggestions of somebody in the DC area who is? (I recall Ed Ruiz going to a shop in VA a few years back. The problem came back within a few months, I believe).
.....or am I being way too pessimistic about this?
First of all, thanks for reading my long winded post. This is the only unresolved issue that I have with any of my cars, so it's a biggie to me. It's a Pandora's Box just sitting there, IMO.
Good point about finding a Hammer from a source other than the Porsche dealer.
I agree, I may be able to get a Hammer hooked up to my car & get a reading for not alot of money.
If it is something as minor as a sporadic ground fault, and the light can be reset, I'm all for it...and I agree it's certainly worth the trouble to at least see if that takes care of the issue. I could get lucky.
However, I'll bet you that once I get a reading from the Hammer, it won't be simply resetting the system to clear the problem. If it is, beer's on me.
Assuming that the problem is more than a simple reset, and let's say that it's something as simple as a grounding issue, I still have the problem (I just know more about it) and who's going to take care of it?
Not me. I'm willing to mess with most things, but when they involve the elect. system (The Great Unknown), with a couple of explosive devices at the other end, I'm out. If I had assurances that messing with the sensor would in no way deploy bags, I might attempt it myself. But hell, I don't even know where the sensors are. Their exact location seems to be a mystery...at least I've never figured it out.
And that seems to be the concensus with the mechanics with Hammers (albeit only 2) that I've talked to about this. One was the service manager at Rockville Porsche. I asked where the sensors were, and he said he didn't know right off hand. He was in no hurry to get into a '91 car with an airbag problem, either (too much liability & not enough $$?) And I would never rely on the guy who was letting me use the Hammer, or running a diagnostic for a couple of bucks, either. I understand that these things are really pricey, and most mechanics are trying to recoup their investment. If I'm trying to save a few bucks, I certainly can't hold him accountable if he accidentally deploys my bags.
The best intentions coming from a reasonably priced mechanic with a Hammer could maybe accidently deploy my airbags, right? If I'm wrong about that, please tell me, and I'll admit that I'm totally off track on this one.
So who?
The only situation in which I'd feel right about holding the mechanic responsible for setting off my bags & the other related damage that is itemized on this list is the good 'ol local Porsche dealership, and now we're out of the 'couple of bucks' range.
Anybody out there experienced with fixing a bad ground causing the Airbag Warning Light? I'd be more than happy to turn over the problem to somebody who was experienced and/or confident about working with this system.
Any suggestions of somebody in the DC area who is? (I recall Ed Ruiz going to a shop in VA a few years back. The problem came back within a few months, I believe).
.....or am I being way too pessimistic about this?
12-17-2004, 05:12 PM
#41
Gluteus Maximus
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What about modifying the airbag sensor so it takes a crash of say 30mph to set it off instead of 15? I have no idea how the sensor works, but if it's like some you could just double the springs which hold the weighted contact. Or even easier you could wrap the whole sensor in foam or something to decrease the impact it senses (although it would not be as precise).
12-17-2004, 05:43 PM
#42
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J.P. -
I do understand your concerns about the airbag system. But it is/was a system designed to be worked on with a little care and with the right equipment. I agree todays Porsche dealer would rather change oil on a Boxster than delve into a 928s airbag problem.......don't lose hope though, there are good mechanics that will and help you solve the problem. Finding them is the hard
part.
Just FYI......I've removed my drivers side airbag at least a few times doing various things......each time I followed all the rules in the manual......right down to where and how I laid the airbag down, buying two new attachment bolts each time it was removed torquing them to spec, etc. Porsche knew what they were doing when they wrote the manual and if you follow the rules, accidents should be a non-issue. BTW......you probably have heard many 928 problems on this board, but how many times have airbags suddenly going off been mentioned?........not a whole lot if at all.
I do understand your concerns about the airbag system. But it is/was a system designed to be worked on with a little care and with the right equipment. I agree todays Porsche dealer would rather change oil on a Boxster than delve into a 928s airbag problem.......don't lose hope though, there are good mechanics that will and help you solve the problem. Finding them is the hard
part.
Just FYI......I've removed my drivers side airbag at least a few times doing various things......each time I followed all the rules in the manual......right down to where and how I laid the airbag down, buying two new attachment bolts each time it was removed torquing them to spec, etc. Porsche knew what they were doing when they wrote the manual and if you follow the rules, accidents should be a non-issue. BTW......you probably have heard many 928 problems on this board, but how many times have airbags suddenly going off been mentioned?........not a whole lot if at all.
12-19-2004, 07:40 PM
#43
Addict
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A post from another board (Ford Trucks), this guy seems to think airbags were a big help. He was driving at 65 mph, hydorplaned into a pine tree head-on.
====
I am trained as an Army aircraft crash investigator. If I had not been the driver and walked away I would have thought this crash not survivable. This is my first (hopfully last) air bag event, and I am impressed at how well they worked. No black eyes, no sore chest, I did hit my left hand knuckles pretty hard on the door window when the air bag forced my hand away from the steering wheel. Insurance guy told me that air bags save broken arms by making you let go and just let your body and face decelerate the motion.
My partner and I were both out of the truck and laughing hysterically when folks started stopping to see what was wrong. took a while for them to get it that we were the occupants. In fact it looked like one fellow was going to kick my butt because he though we were drunk and caused the accident and were laughing at some poor slob that had just bit the dust.
====
I am trained as an Army aircraft crash investigator. If I had not been the driver and walked away I would have thought this crash not survivable. This is my first (hopfully last) air bag event, and I am impressed at how well they worked. No black eyes, no sore chest, I did hit my left hand knuckles pretty hard on the door window when the air bag forced my hand away from the steering wheel. Insurance guy told me that air bags save broken arms by making you let go and just let your body and face decelerate the motion.
My partner and I were both out of the truck and laughing hysterically when folks started stopping to see what was wrong. took a while for them to get it that we were the occupants. In fact it looked like one fellow was going to kick my butt because he though we were drunk and caused the accident and were laughing at some poor slob that had just bit the dust.
