First Ticket in over 5 years - Dr. Ron, please!
10-27-2004, 05:08 PM
#46
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Okay, Dr. Ron here. Nicole called me last night right after the "event" but lost her cell phone shortly thereafter.
First, California has a "basic speed law". Enough crap about inflexible "enforcement" of an ill founded law. There is NO SUCH THING as speeding. Period. There is excessive speed. docmirror stated it very well. You sit there and expect me to believe that your cruiser and my 928 (well maintained) and your friend's Yugo are all safe at 70 mph but not safe at 75 mph? Do I appear to be a moron? Are 928s routinely driven at 120 - 140 mph safely on highways of lesser build and engineering quality? Do I appear to be a moron? Do police officers in their cruisers routinely work their way through clumps of traffic in the right lane on our well designed freeways at 80 mph or over? Do I appear to be a moron? Are you stating that speed in and of itself is dangerous? Do I appear to be a moron? Well, then don't go there. Don't give me that crap about speed kills or your're are trying to protect me from myself, or I shouldn't bathe in a tub because some people drown in bathtubs. Maybe you are the moron. And if so, why should I support you? Natural selection should be allowed to prevail here and breed you out. Heinrich I agree with you about hypocrisy, but that is not the basic issue. The basic issue is whether it is really dangerous, to whom it is dangerous and whether or not we should all be prevented from any danger at all. Arbitrary speed limits proven to be causative of increasing the accident rates are absurd especially when enforced without discretion, which is what an officer is given. And don't tell me "well, we have to draw the line somewhere", because your premise is false; you DO NOT have to draw the line somewhere. If that was true you would not have discretion and the ability to evaluate each case on its merits. And states without speed limits would not have lower accident rates. That reasoning is another "cop out"; I have many friends who are police officers but they don't "cop out". They use the functioning brain that God gave them and think. Don't insult my intelligence. This is about revenue collection, jealousy and inferiority complexes. It is about mindless and blind allegience to unquestioned "authority" as being an acceptable form of behavior. Another term is "faggoting". It is our government that is errant, and it is our responsibility to re-take control of such errant abuses of power. Despite such lame efforts to halt evolution, evolution will come, whether it be by peaceful or violent immediate action. Look around you. You will see it happening in your lifetime. Man will never walk on the moon. Do I appear to be a moron? Now look in the mirror. Where is the moron??? Where is the sheep??? "All things are relative".
Get this tatooed on your forehead so you will read it every morning in the mirror: Just because you are accused of a crime does not mean you are guilty of that crime. And just because you are accused of exceeding an arbitrarily and illegally posted speed limit doesn't mean you are guilty of a crime. Are there people sitting on death row now that have exhausted their appeal rights that are innocent of any crime? Well, I certainly think so. Because there are certainly people who have been regarded by the CHPs, the judges, the prosecutors, the juries, and the whole freaking world as guilty of a crime and have spent years locked up for that crime, and who were ultimately proven not guilty of that crime by DNA.
Well, hey, it is only an infraction, right? Just pay the fine, you got "caught", and be done with it. Small price to pay to keep the CHPs out there right? After all when we need 'em they're there, right? In my county alone, the amount of revenue generated by traffic fines, mostly "speeding", each month is +/- $200,000.00. Each month each year, year in and year out. That is not a small insignificant amount of "taxation", thank you. And apparently NO CHANGES HAVE RESULTED in people's behavior, because that amount keeps being generated. And people keep being fined. AND NOTHING CHANGES. Well, get this. The fact that traffic violations are now considered "infractions" in California allows the court to dispense with the requirement that a defendant be allowed a jury trial, as opposed to a misdemeanor. Isn't that an expedient way to sidestep constitutional checks on wrongful accusation and insure efficient "processing" of revenue collection? You are accused of such a heinous crime and you no longer have the right to a trial by a jury of your peers? Better read Orwell again folks because it is slowly coming to a town or village near you.
Finally, do you really expect me to believe that this policy results in behavior modification? Did you maintain your speed when you were made aware of the presence of an officer in a cruiser? Of course not, but what did you do when he/she took the next off ramp? Keep driving at a reduced speed? I don't think so. Now who is the hypocrite??? Say one thing and do another. Funny how everyone is your compatriot until you get "caught" doing what most were doing, and then no one knows your name.
Whew! This issue has me shaking literally.
Nicole, I will email you privately what you need to do now asap. Blau is correct about the change in venue. And the suggestion about tracking devices and yearly fines is a great one, isn't it? Everyone treated equally, right? Wrong. Guess how long each one of you would stand for that crap. Ask the Brits what they are doing about speed cameras in their neighborhoods as we speak. And ask George Washington, the biggest "criminal" of all what he would do. After all, the difference between a criminal and a patriot is who wins the war or who remains in power, isn't it??
First, California has a "basic speed law". Enough crap about inflexible "enforcement" of an ill founded law. There is NO SUCH THING as speeding. Period. There is excessive speed. docmirror stated it very well. You sit there and expect me to believe that your cruiser and my 928 (well maintained) and your friend's Yugo are all safe at 70 mph but not safe at 75 mph? Do I appear to be a moron? Are 928s routinely driven at 120 - 140 mph safely on highways of lesser build and engineering quality? Do I appear to be a moron? Do police officers in their cruisers routinely work their way through clumps of traffic in the right lane on our well designed freeways at 80 mph or over? Do I appear to be a moron? Are you stating that speed in and of itself is dangerous? Do I appear to be a moron? Well, then don't go there. Don't give me that crap about speed kills or your're are trying to protect me from myself, or I shouldn't bathe in a tub because some people drown in bathtubs. Maybe you are the moron. And if so, why should I support you? Natural selection should be allowed to prevail here and breed you out. Heinrich I agree with you about hypocrisy, but that is not the basic issue. The basic issue is whether it is really dangerous, to whom it is dangerous and whether or not we should all be prevented from any danger at all. Arbitrary speed limits proven to be causative of increasing the accident rates are absurd especially when enforced without discretion, which is what an officer is given. And don't tell me "well, we have to draw the line somewhere", because your premise is false; you DO NOT have to draw the line somewhere. If that was true you would not have discretion and the ability to evaluate each case on its merits. And states without speed limits would not have lower accident rates. That reasoning is another "cop out"; I have many friends who are police officers but they don't "cop out". They use the functioning brain that God gave them and think. Don't insult my intelligence. This is about revenue collection, jealousy and inferiority complexes. It is about mindless and blind allegience to unquestioned "authority" as being an acceptable form of behavior. Another term is "faggoting". It is our government that is errant, and it is our responsibility to re-take control of such errant abuses of power. Despite such lame efforts to halt evolution, evolution will come, whether it be by peaceful or violent immediate action. Look around you. You will see it happening in your lifetime. Man will never walk on the moon. Do I appear to be a moron? Now look in the mirror. Where is the moron??? Where is the sheep??? "All things are relative".
Get this tatooed on your forehead so you will read it every morning in the mirror: Just because you are accused of a crime does not mean you are guilty of that crime. And just because you are accused of exceeding an arbitrarily and illegally posted speed limit doesn't mean you are guilty of a crime. Are there people sitting on death row now that have exhausted their appeal rights that are innocent of any crime? Well, I certainly think so. Because there are certainly people who have been regarded by the CHPs, the judges, the prosecutors, the juries, and the whole freaking world as guilty of a crime and have spent years locked up for that crime, and who were ultimately proven not guilty of that crime by DNA.
Well, hey, it is only an infraction, right? Just pay the fine, you got "caught", and be done with it. Small price to pay to keep the CHPs out there right? After all when we need 'em they're there, right? In my county alone, the amount of revenue generated by traffic fines, mostly "speeding", each month is +/- $200,000.00. Each month each year, year in and year out. That is not a small insignificant amount of "taxation", thank you. And apparently NO CHANGES HAVE RESULTED in people's behavior, because that amount keeps being generated. And people keep being fined. AND NOTHING CHANGES. Well, get this. The fact that traffic violations are now considered "infractions" in California allows the court to dispense with the requirement that a defendant be allowed a jury trial, as opposed to a misdemeanor. Isn't that an expedient way to sidestep constitutional checks on wrongful accusation and insure efficient "processing" of revenue collection? You are accused of such a heinous crime and you no longer have the right to a trial by a jury of your peers? Better read Orwell again folks because it is slowly coming to a town or village near you.
Finally, do you really expect me to believe that this policy results in behavior modification? Did you maintain your speed when you were made aware of the presence of an officer in a cruiser? Of course not, but what did you do when he/she took the next off ramp? Keep driving at a reduced speed? I don't think so. Now who is the hypocrite??? Say one thing and do another. Funny how everyone is your compatriot until you get "caught" doing what most were doing, and then no one knows your name.
Whew! This issue has me shaking literally.
Nicole, I will email you privately what you need to do now asap. Blau is correct about the change in venue. And the suggestion about tracking devices and yearly fines is a great one, isn't it? Everyone treated equally, right? Wrong. Guess how long each one of you would stand for that crap. Ask the Brits what they are doing about speed cameras in their neighborhoods as we speak. And ask George Washington, the biggest "criminal" of all what he would do. After all, the difference between a criminal and a patriot is who wins the war or who remains in power, isn't it??
10-27-2004, 05:10 PM
#47
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Jason, ain't this fun? I retired recently after 24 years being the POlice, and, not too long ago got involved in a similar thead here. I was trying to make the point that, beause everyone didn't maintain the same level of driving expertise, or keep their vehicles to the same high standards as we Porsche drivers, laws really did need to be enforced. There seems to be some difficulty figuring out that letting Nicole slide because she drives a 928 and is on a clear road is no different from letting anyone else slide. And, as you said, most of us don't ticket for the things we do, ie, 6-10 over, rolling thru a deserted stop sign, etc.
Me, when I want to speed, I decide what the consequences may be, and make my decision. Last week I was passed by a 997, driver had his nose in the air, ignoring the dirty red 928. So, to make a long story short, I figured I could stand a 20 over ticket, hoped the Bel was working right, and, in several bursts around other cars, caught up just as he turned off. All the risk for naught, all I wanted to do was drive up beside him and wave like a crazy man.
And, finally, there are a lot of good cops, and some bad ones...I guess the good to bad ratio runs about the same as other professions....OK, I'll include lawyers too.
Me, when I want to speed, I decide what the consequences may be, and make my decision. Last week I was passed by a 997, driver had his nose in the air, ignoring the dirty red 928. So, to make a long story short, I figured I could stand a 20 over ticket, hoped the Bel was working right, and, in several bursts around other cars, caught up just as he turned off. All the risk for naught, all I wanted to do was drive up beside him and wave like a crazy man.
And, finally, there are a lot of good cops, and some bad ones...I guess the good to bad ratio runs about the same as other professions....OK, I'll include lawyers too.
10-27-2004, 05:42 PM
#49
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Well put Bill. My acquaintenances who are cops are all just average hard working guys, doing their job, and trying to feed their families....just like the rest of us.
Sure it is aggravating to get a ticket, but the energy spent here venting is focused on the wrong person.....you get caught speeding, blame yourself. Suck it up stop being a "victim" and a whiner.
The arguements here mostly sound like "we have better cars so they should pick on the POS owners out there" ....Lame lame lame.....Leona Helmsley tried that one with the US government over taxes.....
I can appreciate the libertarian stance......but in this society the way to effect change is to do it within the system.....
"I got a ticket, wah wah wah, ****, moan, whine and complain....."
You people don't really think that highly of yourselves DO YOU?
Sure it is aggravating to get a ticket, but the energy spent here venting is focused on the wrong person.....you get caught speeding, blame yourself. Suck it up stop being a "victim" and a whiner.
The arguements here mostly sound like "we have better cars so they should pick on the POS owners out there" ....Lame lame lame.....Leona Helmsley tried that one with the US government over taxes.....
I can appreciate the libertarian stance......but in this society the way to effect change is to do it within the system.....
"I got a ticket, wah wah wah, ****, moan, whine and complain....."
You people don't really think that highly of yourselves DO YOU?
Originally Posted by WER
Jason, ain't this fun? I retired recently after 24 years being the POlice, and, not too long ago got involved in a similar thead here. I was trying to make the point that, beause everyone didn't maintain the same level of driving expertise, or keep their vehicles to the same high standards as we Porsche drivers, laws really did need to be enforced. There seems to be some difficulty figuring out that letting Nicole slide because she drives a 928 and is on a clear road is no different from letting anyone else slide. And, as you said, most of us don't ticket for the things we do, ie, 6-10 over, rolling thru a deserted stop sign, etc.
Me, when I want to speed, I decide what the consequences may be, and make my decision. Last week I was passed by a 997, driver had his nose in the air, ignoring the dirty red 928. So, to make a long story short, I figured I could stand a 20 over ticket, hoped the Bel was working right, and, in several bursts around other cars, caught up just as he turned off. All the risk for naught, all I wanted to do was drive up beside him and wave like a crazy man.
And, finally, there are a lot of good cops, and some bad ones...I guess the good to bad ratio runs about the same as other professions....OK, I'll include lawyers too.
Me, when I want to speed, I decide what the consequences may be, and make my decision. Last week I was passed by a 997, driver had his nose in the air, ignoring the dirty red 928. So, to make a long story short, I figured I could stand a 20 over ticket, hoped the Bel was working right, and, in several bursts around other cars, caught up just as he turned off. All the risk for naught, all I wanted to do was drive up beside him and wave like a crazy man.
And, finally, there are a lot of good cops, and some bad ones...I guess the good to bad ratio runs about the same as other professions....OK, I'll include lawyers too.
10-27-2004, 05:52 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by pewter82
Doc, I'm not even going to try to change your mind. You seem very intrenched in your ideal's. But when that time comes that you may need an officer for what ever reason, I hope the officer does his or her job fairly and to the best of their ability. As I said before anyone can PM me if you want to vent.
Hope is a great thing, keep the faith, it may someday save you. But, frankly, like the common usage 'Xerox', when we mean copy, the words 'where's a cop when you really need one', and 'there's never a cop around when the crime is going down'. Have become common usage in everyday America. The enforcement arm is there primarily to make notes, write up descriptions, and turn the whole thing over to either a file cabinet(AFTER THE FACT), or in case of some felonies to a detective. The detective, usually looks for the closest living relative to convict(yes, I said convict), and then build a case around that conviction.
If you don't value your personal liberty, you are part of the problem not part of the cure. To get back to the speeding issue, I keep hearing that driving is a priviledge, not a right. Well, we are not a rights based society, so in a way, that's true. we are supposed to be a liberty based society, with certain restrictions on liberty for the good of the society as a whole. The restrictions have gotten WAY out of hand(try flying a small plane in October before an election - oh my gawd).
That's why there is a basic speed law. If a farm plow, or a Harley, or a 928 is driven safely, it's speed is irrelevant. The opposite is also true. I've seen a guy on a farm tractor arested for DWI, his speed at the time of the arrest was estimated at 12MPH. The French gov't thought they could ignore the masses(let 'em eat cake). It didn't go well for the French aristocracy, I think we are on the same path. Think we're immune? Ask yourself these questions. Which country is the only one that dropped a nuclear bomb in anger? Which country locked up it's CITIZENS based on racial heritage, more than once? The number of countries that execute it's citizens for crimes is quite small, including Zaire, Libiya, Iraq, Iran, Saudi, and some other backwaters. Who's missing?
Drive free while you can. The liberty you give up is your children's.
10-27-2004, 05:53 PM
#51
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I have a friend that pledges the $15.00 each year to the Sheriff and gives me the sticker for the Porsche. I guess that I should consider slapping it in the rear window of the Shark.
10-27-2004, 05:56 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by Gretch
........."I got a ticket, wah wah wah, ****, moan, whine and complain....." You people don't really think that highly of yourselves DO YOU?
10-27-2004, 06:16 PM
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Trying to avoid the no sticker rule. Some guys laminate them here in Indytucky and put them near their license plates. I hear that it gives a warm and fuzzy feeling to some. Haven't tried it yet...
Last edited by redidrum; 10-27-2004 at 06:34 PM.
10-27-2004, 06:36 PM
#56
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Thank you 
.... I have never met anyone that did not speed ... as a rule mind you. We humans just do not consider speed in and of itself a bad thing. It's all about the circumstances. And in that sense it has nothing to do with "The Law" and everything with SAFETY.
Show me a driver who says he/she does not speed and I will show you a liar.
.... I have never met anyone that did not speed ... as a rule mind you. We humans just do not consider speed in and of itself a bad thing. It's all about the circumstances. And in that sense it has nothing to do with "The Law" and everything with SAFETY.Show me a driver who says he/she does not speed and I will show you a liar.
10-27-2004, 06:44 PM
#57
Drifting
Ron, get a grip. Don't beat yourself up, I don't think your a moron. If you want to wiggle your way out of "unjust" infractions then thats your business. I love to hear people like you recite law, I just smile and wish you a good day. Walk a mile in a cop's shoes, then tell us all your wisdom.
jason
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10-27-2004, 06:54 PM
#58
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I accept a personal philosophy of "you play, you pay". I also accept the fact that the law enforcement system re speeding is not completely just. But I choose to work within this system with intent to minimize occurances with law enforcement.
If I were to speed, I wouldn't do it with the cruise on, nor would I do it for long distances. This allows me to travel at varying speeds btw traffic or potential speed traps. I won't run up or pass other cars at high speeds as not to scare them. I guess you could call this an "ebb and flow" technique. I think this somewhat, if not greatly reduces the chance of an issue with law enforment. It also allows my intuition to do what it does... my internal radar detector to work.
I've been using this for a few years, and though I believe it works or helps, it is not "sure-fire". So I have been caught and that is when I resort back to my primary philosophy. So, I know I'm going to pay one way or the other, and how do I go about this. What is my priority? To minimize points and avoid a major jump in my insurance.
Here is what I have found. Given that traffic tickets are income generators, the courts aren't terribly concerned how they receive their income. (Note this does not apply repeat offenders with substantially poor driving records). I've found the best method is to find a lawyer well connected within the court system. A lawyer whose been in the "business" for many years; knows the prosecuters and possibly the police. Now granted you will have to pay the lawyer a tidy sum (though this is not always the case depending on how you go about it), and the lawer will do little actual work, probably a phone call or two. But what you will find is a reduced sentence to a faulty equipment ticket, no points. But the fine will be the same as a speeding ticket.
So I call this a win/win/win situation. The courst get their money, the lawyers get their money, and you get no points on your insurance record. I have used this method with much success, if you would allow to call it success.
I believe the system as to how it relates to insurance points and rate increases is wrong. I believe myself to be a very safe driver with regards to other trafficers. If I do get caught, I will pay my fine and move on. Just leave my insurance out of it.
If I were to speed, I wouldn't do it with the cruise on, nor would I do it for long distances. This allows me to travel at varying speeds btw traffic or potential speed traps. I won't run up or pass other cars at high speeds as not to scare them. I guess you could call this an "ebb and flow" technique. I think this somewhat, if not greatly reduces the chance of an issue with law enforment. It also allows my intuition to do what it does... my internal radar detector to work.
I've been using this for a few years, and though I believe it works or helps, it is not "sure-fire". So I have been caught and that is when I resort back to my primary philosophy. So, I know I'm going to pay one way or the other, and how do I go about this. What is my priority? To minimize points and avoid a major jump in my insurance.
Here is what I have found. Given that traffic tickets are income generators, the courts aren't terribly concerned how they receive their income. (Note this does not apply repeat offenders with substantially poor driving records). I've found the best method is to find a lawyer well connected within the court system. A lawyer whose been in the "business" for many years; knows the prosecuters and possibly the police. Now granted you will have to pay the lawyer a tidy sum (though this is not always the case depending on how you go about it), and the lawer will do little actual work, probably a phone call or two. But what you will find is a reduced sentence to a faulty equipment ticket, no points. But the fine will be the same as a speeding ticket.
So I call this a win/win/win situation. The courst get their money, the lawyers get their money, and you get no points on your insurance record. I have used this method with much success, if you would allow to call it success.
I believe the system as to how it relates to insurance points and rate increases is wrong. I believe myself to be a very safe driver with regards to other trafficers. If I do get caught, I will pay my fine and move on. Just leave my insurance out of it.
10-27-2004, 07:03 PM
#59
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Originally Posted by Jadz928
.....Just leave my insurance out of it.
10-27-2004, 07:07 PM
#60
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So WER ... Bill,
On a lighter note. I notice you are in N.C.
I am assuming that when you were a police officer you were in that area as well. So, curiosity gets the best of me and makes ask....
In the course of your duties did you ever find yourself in the situatiion where you walked up to the driver's window of some ne'er-do-well perp and said..."you're in a heap o trouble boah!" ???
No disrespect meant here, just wondered.
Cheers
On a lighter note. I notice you are in N.C.
I am assuming that when you were a police officer you were in that area as well. So, curiosity gets the best of me and makes ask....
In the course of your duties did you ever find yourself in the situatiion where you walked up to the driver's window of some ne'er-do-well perp and said..."you're in a heap o trouble boah!" ???No disrespect meant here, just wondered.
Cheers